Order without Intelligence

[sandwiches]

That's what happens when raw science meets raw faith.

And about your 'epistemological value' remark --- I have to believe you never heard of the Table of Nations, and to have just gotten an education in basic doctrine, then to make this doosey of a statement says a lot about your attitude.

I have to wonder why you're even here on a Christian site, but that's none of my business.

I like to debate.

You 've stated that no matter what you see, experience, understand, or realize, you will never, under any circumstances, disavow the 'truth' of the Bible. I have to wonder why you're even here on a Creation & EVOLUTION forum.

 

[sandwiches]

Okay, I stopped here.

If you can't answer with a number, I'm finished.

You guys have a good day ---

Haha. Don't be a sore loser, champ.

 

[Psudopod]

Originally Posted by Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-10/#post53879500
Well yes, but you haven’t given me any reason to change my mind.
I did my best --- if that's not good enough, then there's not much more I can do.

Well, you only stated what you believed, to be fair. If I told you they were over 6000 years old because the Great Arklesiezure told me so, you wouldn’t be convinced either!

Originally Posted by

Psudopod http://www.christianforums.com/t7429592-10/#post53879500
Well, sure, but I was hoping you’d give me an over view.
Here's your overview:

According to the Bible, the Egyptian civilization came from Noah's grandson, Mizraim; and the Chinese civilization came from Noah's great-grandson, the Sinite.

You don't have to read the whole Wikipedia article; just scroll down to Mizraim and read what it says.

It's only a couple of sentences.

Okay, so it’s what you were originally saying. Fair enough, just wanted to make sure.

 

[BananaSlug]

Good --- then it gets down to the age of something (as opposed to something dated), and that, of course, falls back on God embedding age into His creation.

So God embeds age into pottery like he does fossils?

How old is the metal in my car?

As old as the last time it was liquid.

 

[AV1611VET]

So God embeds age into pottery like he does fossils?

He embedded age into the clay that became the pottery.

 

[BananaSlug]

He embedded age into the clay that became the pottery.

No, the age is based on the carbon content within the pottery, which came from the vegetation that was used to fire it. So did God embed age into the wood used for the kiln?

 

[Freodin]

He embedded age into the clay that became the pottery.

Another of the things that you don´t seem to understand... most dating methods don´t measure some mythical concept of "age", but count regular occuring events since a certain starting event.

You can compare that process to a stopwatch, which is set to zero, and then ticks up every second.

One of the important things to remember when using all these methods: know what kind of event resets your clock.

In the case of your pottery: it isn´t the origin of the clay that is the "zero" point for the dating, but the firering of the pottery.

 

[Belk]

Another of the things that you don´t seem to understand... most dating methods don´t measure some mythical concept of "age", but count regular occuring events since a certain starting event.

You can compare that process to a stopwatch, which is set to zero, and then ticks up every second.

One of the important things to remember when using all these methods: know what kind of event resets your clock.

In the case of your pottery: it isn´t the origin of the clay that is the "zero" point for the dating, but the firering of the pottery.

I tried to point this out to him, but like so much else he does not wish to see it was quickly ignored.

 

[AV1611VET]

In the case of your pottery: it isn´t the origin of the clay that is the "zero" point for the dating, but the firering of the pottery.

I tried to point this out to him, but like so much else he does not wish to see it was quickly ignored.

Maybe if some of you guys could learn to slow down and answer questions, instead of asking questions all the time, I would realize this.

For about the 5th time, if I built a church out of Zircon, how old would my church be?

Your carbon resetting itself during the firing process sounds like bologna to me.

It may not be bologna to someone educated to think differently, but the materials that go into the pottery (the clay) had to have age as well.

I'm surprised the pottery doesn't show a much, much older date.

 

[Skaloop]

Maybe if some of you guys could learn to slow down and answer questions, instead of asking questions all the time, I would realize this.

For about the 5th time, if I built a church out of Zircon, how old would my church be?

The church itself would be the age of the number of years since you built it. The zircon itself, would of course be older.

It may not be bologna to someone educated to think differently, but the materials that go into the pottery (the clay) had to have age as well.

Yes, the clay ages as well, but the clay is not what is being measured, it is the age of the clay since it was fired. Because firing changes the nature of the clay; you'll notice that pottery is no longer soft and malleable the way the unfired clay used to make it was. That isn't bologna, that's observable fact.

I'm surprised the pottery doesn't show a much, much older date.

According to your birth certificate, how old are you? I mean, you're made of atoms that have conceivably been here since the beginning of the universe, so you should be surprised if it says 1956 (or 1955). But you aren't because you understand that the date on your birth certificate is not meant to convey the age of your components, but rather a specific event in your history, the day you exitted your mother's uterus.

 

[BananaSlug]

Maybe if some of you guys could learn to slow down and answer questions, instead of asking questions all the time, I would realize this.

I answer a question then ask another. So why would God embed age into pottery when the age of the pottery comes from when it was fired? Wouldn't that be a false history?

For about the 5th time, if I built a church out of Zircon, how old would my church be?

Your church would be as old as when it was built. The materials used do not make the church old.

Your carbon resetting itself during the firing process sounds like bologna to me.

It is not resetting itself. The carbon from the vegetation that is burned is transferred to clay. They dating of pottery shows when it was fired.

It may not be bologna to someone educated to think differently, but the materials that go into the pottery (the clay) had to have age as well.

Yes, the wood or grass used to fire the clay.

I'm surprised the pottery doesn't show a much, much older date.

How so?

 

[Belk]

Maybe if some of you guys could learn to slow down and answer questions, instead of asking questions all the time, I would realize this.

For about the 5th time, if I built a church out of Zircon, how old would my church be?

When did you build the church? Kind of hard for me to give you a number when the information was not provided in your hypothetical question.

Your carbon resetting itself during the firing process sounds like bologna to me.

It may not be bologna to someone educated to think differently, but the materials that go into the pottery (the clay) had to have age as well.

I'm surprised the pottery doesn't show a much, much older date.

How do we measure the age of something AV? What is it that we are measuring?

 

[AV1611VET]

I answer a question then ask another. So why would God embed age into pottery when the age of the pottery comes from when it was fired? Wouldn't that be a false history?

God did not embed age into pottery.

 

[Skaloop]

God did not embed age into pottery.

But there's pottery that dates to considerably older than 6000 years. So how did that age get there?

 

[Nathan Poe]

God did not embed age into pottery.

Or into anything else.

 

[Tiberius]

*Sigh*

I'll never cease to be amazed at the ability of people to go off topic, and I note that it is mainly a bunch of creationists who want to take the thread to a place where they feel they can just thumb their noses at what everyone else thinks.

So, can we get back on topic and start discussing the actual question at hand - Can anyone show me that order MUST come from an intelligent agency?

 

[caustic]

Can anyone show me that order MUST come from an intelligent agency?

No.

It has been shown time and time again that order can and does arise from natural processes.

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

Can anyone show me that order MUST come from an intelligent agency?

Do you think Mount Rushmore carved itself by accident?

How about the Mona Lisa, did nature just spill the paint there by chance?

 

[Agonaces of Susa]

It has been shown time and time again that order can and does arise from natural processes.

Intelligence is a natural process.

 

[gipsy]

Do you think Mount Rushmore carved itself by accident?

How about the Mona Lisa, did nature just spill the paint there by chance?

Do you think snowflakes are formed by the snowflakefairy?

How about crystals, did the mighty crystalmaker just build them with his intelligence?

You see, just giving some examples of "order" clearly and proofable coming from an external "intelligence" can't dismiss a lot of other examples of "order" clearly and proofable not coming from an external "intelligence".

Perhaps you should stop searching for senseless quotemines and start using your brain for yourself?