Order of Regeneration and Scripture?

[gmm4j]

If regeneration precedes faith, how do you deal with the following texts?

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The order presented in these verses is:

1. Belief (those who believed)
2. Right to become children of God / Born of God (Regeneration)

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The order presented in this verse is:

1. Recorded miracles
2. Belief
3. By belief - New life (Regeneration)

It would have been foolish of John to write, “that by believing you may have life” if it were by having new life that they would believe.

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

The word of God is imperishable seed that must be received/believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

The answers to the apostle Paul’s rhetorical questions in the book of Galatians also seem to prove that belief precedes regeneration.

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?… 5 Does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The correct answer to the first question is that I received the Spirit when I believed what I heard.

1. Recipient hears Word
2. Recipient believes Word
3. Spirit is received

The correct answer to the second question is that God gave me His Spirit because I believed what I heard.

1. Recipient hears Word
2. Recipient believes Word
3. Spirit is given

Acts 15:9
He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. Pure hearts are made by having faith first. Again the order is:

1. Faith
2. Pure (new) hearts.

Galatians 3:26
You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Through faith you are born into the family. You become a spiritual son by faith.

1. Faith
2. Regeneration into a spiritual son.

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1. Word of truth
2. Belief in truth (assumed)
3. Birth (regeneration)

1 Timothy 1:16

But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example for those who would believe on him and receive eternal life.

1. Belief
2. Life (regeneration)

Side note: New eternal life begins with the new birth / life (regeneration), unless you believe that a new creation can cease to be a new creature in Christ and be in need of being born again again?

Ephesians 1:13 describes the order in this way,

Ephesians 1:13

And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit,

1. Hear the Word of truth
2. Believe (having believed) the Word of truth.
3. Included in Christ / Sealed by the Spirit

Acts 11:18

When they heard this, they had no further objections and praised God, saying, "So then, God has granted even the Gentiles repentance unto life."

1. Repentance to…
2. Life (regeneration)

1 John 5:10-12
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

How can you have life (regeneration)(the Son) without belief? How can you have life before you have the Son? If you do not have the Son by first being united to Him by faith, then you do not have life (regeneration).

Rom 6:23
For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Life (regeneration) is only “in” Christ, not “outside of”, and “prior to” Christ.

 

[gmm4j]

Another question that must be raised if a person becomes a son, born by the Spirit into the family of God as born again new creature in Christ Jesus, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and able to see and enter the kingdom before he believes in the gospel message of Christ – Why does he need to believe in Christ?

He has all the benefits of a regenerated believer before believing! Again, he has been included in Christ, he has the Spirit, the Kingdom, salvation, sonship, and a pure heart and now because of this instantaneous regeneration that has happened against his fallen and depraved stubborn will and knowledge… he then subsequently has the ability to believe the gospel. Why would someone need to believe? And, why would we be told to believe, especially, if a person who has been regenerated and now has a pure (new) heart cannot help but believe, while all others cannot?

Bottom line, God’s wrath rests upon people who have not been justified, and prior to faith, we are not justified. If regeneration comes before faith, you would have regenerated people standing condemned under the wrath of God (Romans 5:9, John 3:18)(no matter the span of time). Or conversely stated, no matter the span of time, you would have people being made alive while still under the wrath of God, prior to faith and justification.

How can we be made alive (regenerated) in Christ while still standing condemned in our sins and under God’s wrath before faith?

John 3:18

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

John 3:14-16

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



1. Belief, then…

2. Life

To me the following order seems to be much more in line with the Scriptures presented above:

1) We cannot experience life (regeneration) while still in our sins.
2) We remain in our sins until we are justified on the merits of Christ’s blood.
3) We are justified by faith.
4) Therefore, faith precedes regeneration.

Any thoughts you have to help me work through this would be greatly appreciated.

 

[twin1954]

Another question that must be raised if a person becomes a son, born by the Spirit into the family of God as born again new creature in Christ Jesus, sealed by the Holy Spirit, and able to see and enter the kingdom before he believes in the gospel message of Christ – Why does he need to believe in Christ?

He has all the benefits of a regenerated believer before believing! Again, he has been included in Christ, he has the Spirit, the Kingdom, salvation, sonship, and a pure heart and now because of this instantaneous regeneration that has happened against his fallen and depraved stubborn will and knowledge… he then subsequently has the ability to believe the gospel. Why would someone need to believe? And, why would we be told to believe, especially, if a person who has been regenerated and now has a pure (new) heart cannot help but believe, while all others cannot?

Bottom line, God’s wrath rests upon people who have not been justified, and prior to faith, we are not justified. If regeneration comes before faith, you would have regenerated people standing condemned under the wrath of God (Romans 5:9, John 3:18)(no matter the span of time). Or conversely stated, no matter the span of time, you would have people being made alive while still under the wrath of God, prior to faith and justification.

How can we be made alive (regenerated) in Christ while still standing condemned in our sins and under God’s wrath before faith?

John 3:18

“Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.”

John 3:14-16

14 Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, 15 that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life. 16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.



1. Belief, then…

2. Life

To me the following order seems to be much more in line with the Scriptures presented above:

1) We cannot experience life (regeneration) while still in our sins.
2) We remain in our sins until we are justified on the merits of Christ’s blood.
3) We are justified by faith.
4) Therefore, faith precedes regeneration.

Any thoughts you have to help me work through this would be greatly appreciated.

This is the ask a Calvinist room. The debate a Calvinist room is farther down the list. I suggest that you take these posts there.

 

[Elderone]

gmm4j you have some studying to do. This will be short so you can get on with it.

1. God is infallible, His word does not contradict itself. When it appears to be doing so it is the reader that has it wrong.

2. Start all Bible reading with a short prayer asking God to help you understand.

3. Here are some passages to always keep in mind.

Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[gmm4j]

J Thank you elderone for the warm welcome and for completely avoiding my questions. I also appreciate your loving encouragement for me to study. I had not considered this and I receive it in the spirit it was given. And then, thank you for cutting your response short. This helped more than you know.

I agree with your first point. The order of regeneration presented in the Word is not contradictory. Over and over, it is plainly set forth. The reader has to deal with it. You simply cannot have life before you have the Son.

1 John 5:12
He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

I also agree with your second point, though I’m not sure why it has to be a short prayer?
1 Thess 5:17 “pray continually”


Then, on your third and final point… Wow, I never knew those verses were there?

Let’s look at them in context.

Romans 3:9-22
What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin. 10 As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; 11 there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God. 12 All have turned away, they have together become worthless; there is no one who does good, not even one." 13 "Their throats are open graves; their tongues practice deceit." "The poison of vipers is on their lips."14 "Their mouths are full of cursing and bitterness."15 "Their feet are swift to shed blood; 16 ruin and misery mark their ways, 17 and the way of peace they do not know."18 "There is no fear of God before their eyes." 19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. 20 Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. 21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe.

Context, context, context. Along with stating that no one seeks God, all have turned away, and no one does good, it also says that their throats are open graves, and the poison of vipers is on their lips. I wonder if you should take these literally? Do you think there is really viper poison on their lips? The point Paul is trying to convey is that all men are under sin (v9) and all men are sinners, not that man is unable to respond to the gospel when it is presented to him.

Verse 20 tells us that the law makes fallen man who cannot keep the law conscious of sin. We know also the Holy Spirit also convicts the world of its sin of unbelief.

Then v21 tells us that righteousness from God has been made known and actually comes specifically to all who are regenerated. No, to all who believe. All who are under sin and cannot keep the law to become righteous, have the ability believe in the One who has kept the law and thereby be made righteous.

Then you cite:

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Here’s a little fuller context:

1 Corinthians 2:1-14
When I came to you, brothers, I did not come with eloquence or superior wisdom as I proclaimed to you the testimony about God. 2 For I resolved to know nothing while I was with you except Jesus Christ and him crucified. 3 I came to you in weakness and fear, and with much trembling. 4 My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, 5 so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power.
However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: "Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him." 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man's wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Context, context, context. You would argue that a person needs to be born of the Spirit before they can receive the gospel message, which is a spiritual message expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. Of course, this cannot be. If a person already has life through regeneration and they already have the Spirit without believing the gospel, then the gospel isn’t needed. So, was this the concept Paul is presenting? No.

Paul did not initially come to the Corinthians with a spiritually mature message. He only preached Christ and Christ crucified, along with a demonstration of the Spirit, and they were able to put their faith in the power of God. The message for the mature however takes spiritual discernment and the Spirit to lead them into the depths of it. He couldn't even talk to the regenerated Corinthian brothers on that level, they still could only handle the milk.

1 Corinthians 3:1-2

Brothers, I could not address you as spiritual but as worldly-mere infants in Christ. 2 I gave you milk, not solid food, for you were not yet ready for it. Indeed, you are still not ready.

Paul is not making a sweeping theological statement about a total inability in every human being or that an unregenerate person does not have the ability to receive the gospel message. Instead, a man without the Spirit must first believe in Jesus,

1 Corinthians 1:20-22

For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe.

and thereby receive the Spirit of God in order to accept, understand, and be led into all the truth of the spiritually mature things of God.

Finally elderone, would you please answer Paul’s question for everyone?

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law, or by believing what you heard?

Thanks, I’m going to continue studying now.

Actually, if someone could seriously help me exegete some of the texts I have presented above, I would greatly appreciate it. How do Calvinists deal with what seems to be an obvious order found in the verses I’ve listed?

Blessings

 

[Elderone]

I could have given quite lengthy answers to your questions as to how Calvinists understand those passages and why, but we here know that only the Holy Spirit can open eyes, ears and change minds.

All I will say about them is that the Bible does not teach works righteousness, salvation is a free gift of God.

Believe-it-or-not the information in my first post was what I believe to be a good way to understand the Bible, most especially asking the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding, and reading, reading, and more reading.

 

[gmm4j]

Hi Elderone,

Thanks for your response.

You stated:

I could have given quite lengthy answers to your questions as to how Calvinists understand those passages and why, but we here know that only the Holy Spirit can open eyes, ears and change minds.

----------------------------------------------

I know you believe that only the Holy Spirit can open eyes, ears and change minds. Ultimately, I agree, although I believe this is not done solely by regeneration. I believe it is primarily done through revelation, God’s general kindnesses that lead people to repentance and specifically the word of truth by which we are birthed. Of course there are also angelic visitations such as Cornelius had that prepared him to receive Peter’s message, and a direct visitation of Christ such as Paul experienced, and various other means by which Holy Spirit convicts the world of their unbelief.

Romans 2:4
Or do you show contempt for the riches of his kindness, tolerance and patience, not realizing that God's kindness leads you toward repentance?

James 1:18
He chose to give us birth through the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of all he created.

1 Peter 1:23-24
For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Perhaps I will ask you some questions about Total Inability and we can discuss this to a greater degree later.

Then you state:

All I will say about them is that the Bible does not teach works righteousness, salvation is a free gift of God.

---------------------------------------------

I agree completely!

Then you state:

Believe-it-or-not the information in my first post was what I believe to be a good way to understand the Bible, most especially asking the Holy Spirit for guidance and understanding, and reading, reading, and more reading.

---------------------------------------------

I’m with you here too! I completely agree.

If you are willing, I would like to take you up on the first thing you stated in this post. “I could have given quite lengthy answers to your questions as to how Calvinists understand those passages and why”. Perhaps we can break it down and deal with one text at a time.

Let’s deal with this one first:

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

I know that you believe that man is totally unable to believe that Jesus is the Christ without first being made alive (re generated). How then does a Calvinist deal with this verse, where it seems to indicate that life doesn’t come until after belief and by belief? I honestly don’t know how it is dealt with in regards to the order of regeneration. I have asked on a number of other sites and it has simply been avoided.

Thanks for any thoughts.

 

[twin1954]

Obviously your "questions" were intended to give you a platform to "teach" us truth. Since that is the case you will find that you will get little response here. As I said in my earlier post this is the ask a Calvinist room. If you want to debate a Calvinist, as it is obvious you do, take it to the proper place.

 

[gmm4j]

Hi twin,

My questions are not intended to teach. Sorry, if I came across that way. I do wish to learn and come to a knowledge of the Truth. The reason I am not a Calvinist is because I cannot reconcile your understanding of TULIP with the whole counsel of Scripture, thus my questions. If you could help me through my questions and reconcile your views for me with the whole of Scripture, I would gladly become a Calvinist.

Your veiw as I understand it: Regeneration precedes faith.

I presented a number of texts that seem to indicate otherwise.

My honest and legitimate question to a Calvinist, "How do you reconcile (deal with) them?"

 

[Eddie L]

I'll go ahead and trust that you don't want to debate or teach but want to know how we reconcile. If that's the case, you won't argue. If you'd rather debate/argue, then this is the wrong forum for this thread.

If regeneration precedes faith, how do you deal with the following texts?

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The order presented in these verses is:

1. Belief (those who believed)
2. Right to become children of God / Born of God (Regeneration)

I interpret this verse to mean that belief marks receiving, and that those that receive are those that are the proper children of God. Jesus isn't the Lord of a particular family lineage. It isn't your physical genetics that mark you as a child of God. It is belief.

John does go farther with this passage, though, to make sure that belief is not made the qualifier of adoption when he says "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God"

This passage isn't giving an order to things. It is describing who Jesus' own are. The right to be a child of God is not established by human ancestry. People aren't justified by genes.

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The order presented in this verse is:

1. Recorded miracles
2. Belief
3. By belief - New life (Regeneration)

It would have been foolish of John to write, “that by believing you may have life” if it were by having new life that they would believe.

John isn't writing a systematic theology textbook. He is sometimes addressing God's sovereignty and sometimes addressing secondary causes, and he doesn't see a need to be explicit when he's addressing one or the other. In other words, he didn't write this passage to resolve a dispute between competing theologies.

The miracles are written about to lead us to believe, because without the means of faith there will not be eternal life. As a Calvinist, I see nothing wrong with that statement. We are saved by grace through faith, and so in order for me to see eternal life God must bring me to faith, and to bring me to faith God must impress me with Himself. That's all John is saying. Again, he isn't writing a manuscript addressing whether or not regeneration precedes faith. We have to use what he's writing to educate us on his chosen topic, not ours.

1 Peter 1:22-25
Now that you have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another deeply, from the heart. 23 For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. 24 For, "All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field; the grass withers and the flowers fall, 25 but the word of the Lord stands forever." And this is the word that was preached to you.

The word of God is imperishable seed that must be received/believed in order to bring about regeneration. Again the order is:

1. Word preached
2. Word believed
3. Born again (Regeneration) through the Word

I don't see your order at all. Peter says they obeyed the truth, for (because) they had been born again by the word (promise, command) of God. They obeyed because of God's word, expressed through being born again.

The answers to the apostle Paul’s rhetorical questions in the book of Galatians also seem to prove that belief precedes regeneration.

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,or by believing what you heard?… 5 Does God give you his Spiritandwork miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

Paul is talking about the manifestation of the Spirit that resulted in visible signs and wonders. He was recollecting the experience he shared with his readers when they received the gospel. He isn't talking about regeneration. Of all the arguments you've presented, this is your strongest, but again I believe that Paul is clear enough in his other writings to guide us. He was addressing a particular concern with the Galatians (works verses faith), and we need to hear what he is saying without forcing his language into how we would use the terms in different conversations.

Acts 15:9

He made no distinction between us and them, for he purified their hearts by faith.

Their hearts were made pure (new) by faith. It does not say that faith was made by or a result of pure hearts. Pure hearts are made by having faith first. Again the order is:

1.Faith
2.Pure (new) hearts.

In this case, I think you've made our argument for us. Faith is a means God used to purify their hearts. Faith was a gift of grace given to purify the heart. The mechanics behind this, to us, is regeneration.

Galatians 3:26

You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus,

Through faith you are born into the family. You become a spiritual son by faith.

1.Faith
2.Regeneration into a spiritual son.

Again, Paul is not focusing on regeneration here, but faith verses works. We are not sons through a physical birth. We are justified as believers by faith. Faith is how we humans recognize sonship.

I don't see a point in going farther. Hopefully this has answered your question. If you want to debate further, please create a topic in the correct forum.

 

[gmm4j]

Hey Eddie L,

Yes! Thank you! This is what I was looking for. There are some things you have said that I understand and just do not agree with. We will have to just agree to disagree, and not debate I will only ask additional questions where I don't understand. For example where you said, "and to bring me to faith God must impress me with Himself". Does He do this before or after regeneration?

Again, thank you so much.

 

[Eddie L]

Hey Eddie L,

Yes! Thank you! This is what I was looking for. There are some things you have said that I understand and just do not agree with. We will have to just agree to disagree, and not debate I will only ask additional questions where I don't understand. For example where you said, "and to bring me to faith God must impress me with Himself". Does He do this before or after regeneration?

Again, thank you so much.

to us, without regeneration people are not impressed with God, at least not in an appropriate sense. Without the Spirit's working on the inside, the written Word only condemns. When the Spirit gives us eyes to see and ears to hear, though, those same words produce a saving work.

thank you for your civility.

 

[gmm4j]

Hi Eddie L,

Thank you for the clarification above. And, thank you again for your responses to the verses I presented. You dealt with most of them, but I'm wondering if you would address one more for me. This should be the last one on this subject.

1 John 5:10-12
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The main problem I am wrestling with if you have regeneration coming before faith is how one can have life (generation) before they have been justified and united to the Son by faith? I understand why you have to put life (regeneration) first from the TULIP point of view, but I don't understand how it is actually possible prior to being united to Christ, who is our Life.

Blessings!

 

[file13]

The main problem I am wrestling with if you have regeneration coming before faith is how one can have life (generation) before they have been justified and united to the Son by faith? I understand why you have to put life (regeneration) first from the TULIP point of view, but I don't understand how it is actually possible prior to being united to Christ, who is our Life.

It's possible because they have been elected long before their regeneration (before the foundation of the world). It might be helpful to look at the common understanding of the Ordo salutis here, because you seem to be thinking the regeneration proceeds election and calling.

The standard Reformed order is:

In the Reformed camp, the ordo salutis is 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) gospel call 4) inward call 5) regeneration, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30)

In the Arminian camp, the ordo salutis is 1) outward call 2) faith/election, 3) repentance, 4) regeneration, 5) justification, 6) perseverance, 7) glorification.
​

Regeneration allows someone to do what the person could normally not do otherwise. Regeneration allows them to actually willfully do what God has ordained, namely repent and trust in Christ. But the Trinity has been at work for the salvation of the elect long before the Spirit makes it possible for us to come to Christ. Notice that it is the Holy Spirit who must first open our hearts to receive Christ. But the key point is that no one can repent and trust in Christ until they have been regenerated.

If you look at the Arminian view, you'll notice that repentance proceeds regeneration. This is what the Reformed view denies. I.e. that we can choose to repent before the Spirit has regenerated us. Does that make sense?

For more information, please check out this link for more information and lots of links to articles.

Hope this helps and God bless!

 

[Eddie L]

Hi Eddie L,

1 John 5:10-12
Anyone who believes in the Son of God has this testimony in his heart. Anyone who does not believe God has made him out to be a liar, because he has not believed the testimony God has given about his Son. 11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.

The main problem I am wrestling with if you have regeneration coming before faith is how one can have life (generation) before they have been justified and united to the Son by faith?

To us, faith or belief isn't something we do to gain unity with the Son. Faith is something that indicates being united to the Son. The verse you quoted says that "anyone who believes in the Son HAS the testimony". It doesn't say "will have the testimony". A person who believes is revealing a condition of their heart. They are revealing that the Son is already there.

Look at the way Paul expresses the following in Galatians 1:15:

But when God, who set me apart from my mother’s womb and called me by his grace, was pleasedto reveal his Son in me so that I might preach him among the Gentiles, my immediate response was not to consult any human being.

We see our own conversion in the same light. We did not believe AND THEREFORE have the testimony of the Son. We believe because we already have it. Our faith is the work of the Spirit expressing itself through our hearts and minds.

I understand why you have to put life (regeneration) first from the TULIP point of view, but I don't understand how it is actually possible prior to being united to Christ, who is our Life.

Christ is our Life. His Spirit in us is the Seed that manifests our faith. That's how we see it.

Everything we do that is righteous is a response to God. That's how we see it. God's seed in us affects our will, which then responds to the grace we've been given.

No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in them; they cannot go on sinning, because they have been born of God. (1 John 3:9)

I will give them an undivided heart and put a new spirit in them; I will remove from them their heart of stone and give them a heart of flesh. Then they will follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws. They will be my people, and I will be their God.(Ezekiel 11:19-20)

Anything we do that is right (like trusting God) is a response to the Spirit. To us it has to be, because there is no righteousness in man apart from the work of the Spirit. We can't be righteousness with the Spirit, because the Spirit is the source of all righteousness.

 

[gmm4j]

Hi File13,

Thanks for your great reply. Very easy to understand and follow. Also thanks for the link I have already checked it out. I thought the Reformed response might be similar to what you stated, “It's possible because they have been elected long before their regeneration (before the foundation of the world).” I still don’t understand how it is possible to have 5) life generation, before you have been connected to Life by 6) faith even if you have been 1) elected, however, I just may have to settle with not understanding.

The orders that you stated and that the link provides do raise another question.

In the Reformed order I don’t understand how you can have a 3) gospel call and a 4) inward call that had any effect before 5) regeneration. My understanding of the “T” in TULIP is that no call, outward or inward, would have any effect on a totally dead and unable unregenerate person. I thought regeneration had to come first before they could believe any type of call.


The “I” 4th Point of Calvinism teaches: In addition to the outward general call to salvation, which is made to everyone who hears the gospel, the Holy Spirit extends to the elect a special inward call that inevitably brings them to salvation. The external call (which is made to all without distinction) can be, and often is, rejected. However, the inward call (which is made only to the elect) cannot be rejected; it always results in conversion. By means of this special call, the Spirit irresistibly draws SINNERS to Christ. He is not limited in His work of applying salvation by man’s will, nor is He dependant upon man’s cooperation for success. The Spirit graciously causes the elect SINNER to cooperate, to believe, to repent, to come freely and willingly to Christ. God’s grace, therefore, is invincible; it never fails to result in the salvation of those to whom it is extended.

The “T” 1st Point of Calvinism teaches:The sinner is dead, blind and deaf to the things of God; his heart is deceitful and desperately corrupt. His will is not free; it is in bondage to his evil nature. Therefore he will not—indeed cannot—choose good over evil in the spiritual realm.Consequently, it takes much more than the Spirit’s assistance TO BRING a sinner to Christ. IT TAKES REGENERATION, by which the Spirit makes the sinner alive and gives him a new nature.


Again, from a Reformed perspective I’m not sure how the Spirit can “draw” a unregenerate sinner to Christ. It seems there is no process in which the Spirit can work in or upon the heart of a sinner to cooperate with Christ until the sinner is first made alive (regenerated) by the Spirit at which time he would then be enabled to respond to a call (inner or outer), and be drawn.

My verbiage is going to be a little more direct in the next paragraph, please take no offense. This is just the way I see it.

As I see it from a Reformed perspective, the first work of the Spirit upon an unregenerate elect person has to be to regenerate them against their will, knowledge, or cooperation. In an instant, the Spirit has to change the unwilling person (open their eyes, ears, heart, and make them come alive) without their knowledge or cooperation and make them into a new creation. Then any process of “calling and response, coming to Christ, being drawn to Christ, cooperating with Christ, being brought to Christ, etc.” can happen because the person has a regenerated will and can willingly respond. But again, the unregenerate sinner was completely unable to positively respond to these promptings or processes before regeneration.

Am I anywhere in the ballpark with that? Do you understand what I’m having trouble with? I guess you could boil it down to… It seems to me that “T” makes “I” impossible unless regeneration comes first in the order. I would think the Reformed order would go 1) election, 2) predestination, 3) regeneration, 4) gospel call, all previous gospel calls had no effect, 6) conversion (faith & repentance), 7) justification, 8) sanctification, and 9) glorification. (Rom 8:29-30). Do any Reformers hold to something similar to this?


And, just for information sake as to where I stand, my understanding of the ordo salutis is different than the two you presented. I see it as, 1) foreknowledge of in-time #5 - faith, 2) election, 3) predestination, 4) outward gospel call goes into a person (hears), 5) faith / repentance, 6) justification, 7) regeneration, 8) sanctification, 9) glorification.

I know that makes you shutter J, but that’s just the way I see it right now. Any thoughts you have to help me better understand the 3, 4, 5 of the Reformed order would be greatly appreciated.

Blessings.

 

[gmm4j]

Thanks Eddie L,

You've given me some good stuff to chew on. Perhaps you have a response to the comments I made to File13 about the Reformed order salutis also?

Have a blessed day!

 

[file13]

My pleasure brother and thanks be to God if it's clear and useful! I'll try to cut out some quotes to keep this as short as I can.

...I still don’t understand how it is possible to have 5) life generation, before you have been connected to Life by 6) faith even if you have been 1) elected, however, I just may have to settle with not understanding.

I think the confusion may be that you seem to be using different terms at different times. Earlier you seemed wonder how you could be united to Christ, but not, and I pointed out that it is the third person of the Trinity, the Holy Spirit, who draws us towards Christ, who's sacrifice can cover our sins, per the will of the Father. So I think these terms "life generation" and "connected to Life" are probably just confusing the issue. I think it's best to simply focus on the individual persons of the Trinity in our salvation. More on this below.

In the Reformed order I don’t understand how you can have a 3) gospel call and a 4) inward call that had any effect before 5) regeneration. My understanding of the “T” in TULIP is that no call, outward or inward, would have any effect on a totally dead and unable unregenerate person. I thought regeneration had to come first before they could believe any type of call.

Gotcha. The confusion is because by "Total depravity," what is meant is that people cannot choose Christ unless the Holy Spirit first draws them to Him. Thus, it is the Holy Spirit who brings about the means for the Gospel to be preached (usually by a living person, but sometimes through other means like a book or video) and also the Holy Spirit who pricks the heart of the elect. In other words it is the Spirit who brings about the Gospel call, the inward call, and finally, regenerates the prodigal child so that they will freely repent as God has ordained. So all these steps are the work of the Holy Spirit, without which, they will not occur in the sense that they will lead to salvation. But regeneration in this context specifically refers to "the God given ability to freely repent and trust in Christ as God has ordained." But the Spirit is still working to get the Gospel to us and prick out hearts before He opens out spiritual eyes to see the wretched condition we're in so that we will repent and trust in Christ.

It also might help to keep in mind that the ordo is just a tool, and often, these stages occur immediately after each other. For example, conversion is immediately followed by justification, and then immediately by sanctification. Also, you have to remember that you're dealing with a logical order, not a temporal one, since there was no time when God choose His sheep before the foundation of the world, and no perceivable time between when Christ's blood justifies us and when the Spirit starts to sanctify us. These logical distinctions are essential, but to think of them temporally may confuse things (and can't account for the earlier stages which occur before time began at creation). I.e. it's better to think of these not as temporal stages, but logical ones.

As I see it from a Reformed perspective, the first work of the Spirit upon an unregenerate elect person has to be to regenerate them against their will, knowledge, or cooperation. In an instant, the Spirit has to change the unwilling person (open their eyes, ears, heart, and make them come alive) without their knowledge or cooperation and make them into a new creation. Then any process of “calling and response, coming to Christ, being drawn to Christ, cooperating with Christ, being brought to Christ, etc.” can happen because the person has a regenerated will and can willingly respond. But again, the unregenerate sinner was completely unable to positively respond to these promptings or processes before regeneration.

Gotcha. Yeah, the problem here that many folks run into is that Reformed theology has a different definition of what "free will" means. For most people, in order for an act to be considered "free," it must meet two conditions.

1. The person does what they want to do.
2. They could have done otherwise (CDO).

This is the definition of what a free act means according to those who accept libertarian free will. So if you come to Reformed theology with this understanding, it's not going to make sense.

So the Reformed understanding of a "free act" is simply condition #1. I.e.

1. The person does what they want to do.

We do believe that in many cases, the CDO condition #2 may also present (i.e. they also could have done otherwise). But we deny that this condition is necessary for an act to be free. I.e. as long as someone does what they want to do, they are doing it freely, regardless of whether or not they could have done otherwise.

If you're having trouble understanding how you can do what you want to do, but not have done otherwise, consider addiction. The addict freely does what they want to do (get their fix) even if the addiction prevents them from doing otherwise. Of course, besides addiction, there's something we all do constantly which we simply cannot will ourselves to stop. Sin.

We cannot stop sinning. If you disagree, stop sinning and prove us wrong.

This is what a "free act" and "free will" means in the Reformed understanding (called compatabilism or "soft determinism" in philosophy). It means that we freely choose to do what God has ordained. How God does this, we're not privy to, because He has not revealed to us how God goes about in a manner where we freely choose to do His will. But Scripture is quite explicit that this is indeed the case. For example, note both of these in the same verse:

this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.
(Acts 2:23 ESV)
​

So when we go back and look at what is being said above with the understanding that people freely choose to do what God has ordained, I think all of your problems will vanish. I.e. when the Spirit calls someone inwardly, they ultimately do want to freely heed it, but are unable to until the Spirit also regenerates them. When He regenerates them, the person also freely chooses to do what they want to do here, namely, repent and trust in Christ. So it's not that people are not free or don't have free will. It's that when we say "free will," we mean that people do what they want to do, just as God has ordained it.

Does that make sense? I know this is pretty heavy stuff, but I think if you take some time to take a hard honest look at this understanding in the light of Scripture, I think you'll easily see how God can harden Pharaoh's heart, and Pharaoh can harden his own heart. I.e. he freely and willingly hardens his heart just as God has ordained Him to. Even if Pharaoh could not have done otherwise, he still does what he wants to do, and is still culpable for what he does.

I know that makes you shutter J, but that’s just the way I see it right now. Any thoughts you have to help me better understand the 3, 4, 5 of the Reformed order would be greatly appreciated.

I don't think it makes any of us shudder at all. We're all born Arminian. We're made Calvinist by the grace of God.

But in all seriousness, most, if not all of us here, have deeply struggled with these issues. The first time I really studied what TULIP meant, I was horrified and literally threw the book I was reading across the room numerous times. I'm not sure what horrified me more. What was being taught, or the fact that it hit home so hard because I had no sound objection to it. It was probably both, because there is nothing more offensive to sinful human pride then to be told "it's not all about you." We like to think we're free, all the while being chained to our sins which we freely choose to do, even though we can't do otherwise. We can't stop sinning, but fancy ourselves free...how utterly arrogant....

So no worries brother, because I think we can all smell what you're stepping in.

Hope this helps and God bless!

 

[gmm4j]

Hey File 13,

Thank you for your answer. It is so refreshing to have you guys walk me through these questions. Even though I'm not sold yet, you are taking them on so I have something to evaluate. I wish I had found this site a long time ago.

You've given me a lot to look at and ponder. I didn't know we would be going to "free will" yet . When I questioned the order of 3,4, and 5 I was trying to view it from a Reformed perspective of "free will" in which we are unable to respond positively to 3) outward call, and 4) inward call unless 5) regeneration takes place first, which would make the order of a person's salvation 3)regeneration, 4)effective outward call that becomes an effective 5)inner call because of first being enabled by 3?

Blessings. I've got to run, but will get back to you soon.

 

[file13]

Thank you for your answer. It is so refreshing to have you guys walk me through these questions. Even though I'm not sold yet, you are taking them on so I have something to evaluate. I wish I had found this site a long time ago.

My pleasure. And as always, thanks be to God if I or anyone else was able to offer something helpful.

FWIW, I'd encourage you to study both/all sides of the issue. Read Arminian (and even confessional Lutheran) responses to this stuff and see if it jives with Scripture. When I first encountered this stuff, I eagerly sought to get the "other side of the story" because I was just stumped and not no good response to what seemed to be as plain as day from Scripture. It was only after seeing the other responses that I came to humble myself, stop trying to save myself while all the while making faith a work, and came to embrace what I believed and still believe is the Gospel message in the fullness of the depth in so far as it has been revealed to us this side of the New Earth. So dig in brother! Confront Romans 8 and 9 head on and ask, what is God telling us here? How can you say it's foreknowledge of a future "decision for Jesus" if God chose between Jacob and Easu "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls" (Romans 9:11 ESV).

It's tough stuff brother and we can relate. So God bless brother and peace be with you!