Order of Regeneration and Scripture?

[gmm4j]

Hi file13,

I’m going to be careful here so I don’t get into a debate style of response, but I do want to give my quick answer to the specific question you posed in the last post. And, thank you for the encouragement about looking at these subjects from all sides. One thing we can be sure of is that Truth will prevail.

The question you posed,

How can you say it's foreknowledge of a future "decision for Jesus" if God chose between Jacob and Easu "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls" (Romans 9:11 ESV).

My current take on it:

Simply, God could choose between them before either had done good or bad because of foreknowledge (foreseeing). But, His choice, which is Paul’s argument, was based on faith (which is not a work) rather than works, birth order, or natural lineage. The overall theme of the letter to the Romans is God’s gift of righteousness by faith; who the gift is for, its benefits, and the justification for God providing righteousness through the means He has chosen (namely faith, rather than lineage or works).

The argument in Romans 9 is not that God predestines to heaven and hell, but rather that God has and will pass over the unrighteous firstborn (Jews) in favor of the younger brother (gentile), who is made righteous by faith.

God elected Jacob before the twins were born and before they had done anything either good or bad, but God certainly foresaw that Esau would despise the birthright while Jacob would value it (Genesis 25). Jacob lived by faith while Esau relied on his own skill. The question of injustice becomes, “Is God unjust in electing Jacob on the grounds of faith, while passing over the firstborn in the natural lineage (Esau) because he had no regard for God?” Not at all! God elects on the grounds of faith. He calls us to faith.

Paul goes on a few verses later to say…

30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but Israel, who pursued a law of righteousness, has not attained it. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the "stumbling stone." 33 As it is written: "See, I lay in Zion a stone that causes men to stumble and a rock that makes them fall, and the one who trusts in him will never be put to shame."

Paul sums up his argument drawing the distinction between the people of God and those rejected by God as being based on those who have faith and those who do not. Nothing is said about the unconditional election of individuals in Paul’s conclusion, because this was not what Paul had been discussing in the chapter. Then, in my estimation, as you continue to read Romans 10 through 11, the interpretation explained above seems to gain support.

So anyway, those are my current thoughts to that particular question. I have tried to think these things through, but of course, I am still trying to understand all the different sides. That’s why I’m here J

In order to not come across as debating, I think I’m probably done asking questions about the order of regeneration. I’m still not clear on the 3,4,5 order, so, if you have anything more on that it would be great, but otherwise I’m sure you’ve seen that I asked another question in a new thread “Stealing From A Dead Man”, which deals more with the issue of Total Inability.

Thanks again for all your input.

 

[file13]

How can you say it's foreknowledge of a future "decision for Jesus" if God chose between Jacob and Easu "though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God's purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls" (Romans 9:11 ESV).

My current take on it:

Simply, God could choose between them before either had done good or bad because of foreknowledge (foreseeing). But, His choice, which is Paul’s argument, was based on faith (which is not a work) rather than works, birth order, or natural lineage. The overall theme of the letter to the Romans is God’s gift of righteousness by faith; who the gift is for, its benefits, and the justification for God providing righteousness through the means He has chosen (namely faith, rather than lineage or works).

How can it be foreseen faith if Paul clearly says that it's God who chose for God's purpose because God called them?

Where is the indication that His chose has anything to do with either their faith or their works here?

But moreover, keep reading. Why do you think Paul would get so defensive if God's decision is based on foreseen faith and/or works?

What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God's part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.
(Romans 9:14-18 ESV)
​

What is even possibly unjust about God looking forward in time and seeing those who will believe (and/or do good works) that would prompt Paul to immediately go here? Moreover, if you believe in libertarian free will, how can you have faith without exercising your human will? But if faith takes an exercise of free will, why does Paul deny this is a factor? Finally, why would Paul say emphasis that His mercy or justice applies to whomever He wills if it's based on foreknowledge of a future act that is ultimately out of God's hands given libertarian free will?

But wait, there's more!

You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
(Romans 9:19-24 ESV)
​

Why would Paul expect the objection "who can resist His will?" if it was based on foreknowledge of the persons faith (and/or good works) and not solely on the basis of God's decree?

Finally, if it's based on foreknowledge of faith (and/or works), why would Paul ever bring up the idea of "vessels of wrath prepared for destruction?"

So if God's decision is indeed based on His foreknowledge of those who will choose to be saved, why would Paul say any of this? Why expect and then tackle objections about God being unjust or unfair? If it's based on a person's decision, why would anyone think it's unfair? Why would Paul make a preemptive strike about God being unjust based on the fact that no one can resist His will?

So yes, you can claim it's based on God's foreknowledge of a future faith (and maybe other stuff depending on the rest of your theology). But can this claim satisfactorily answer these questions?

Since this isn't really a debate forum, you probably simply want to take these all as rhetorical questions and simply work with them yourself. But the point is, I don't think it's sufficient to simply claim that it's based on foreknowledge given the rest of Paul's comments.

That being said, it's a pleasure brother! If you do feel the need to respond, I'd strongly recommend you start a new thread in the debate forum of SR. Have a great weekend and God bless!

 

[gmm4j]

Hi File13,

Great response with great questions. Again, you've given me a lot to chew on, especially, since you've presented much of your information in the form of questions. I will answers them privately and only respond here if I have a legit curiousity question.

God is so majestic and glorious, and your responses have caused me to ponder Him to a greater degree. Thank you, I am thouroughly enjoying!

Together in Christ.

 

[gmm4j]

Moved some of these texts to "Debate a Calvinist."

 

[Foghorn]

If regeneration precedes faith, how do you deal with the following texts?

John 1:12-13
Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God- 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The order presented in these verses is:

1. Belief (those who believed)

No, that's not the order here. The order is, those who received Him,
Believed,

2. Right to become children of God / Born of God (Regeneration)

Your a bit mixed up here also.

It is because they received Him (regenerated), that they believed and were therefore given the right.

You see how scripture teaches, they received Christ, it wasn't their free-will choice or their will:........... children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.



I see you have so much more here, but it is always good to take one at a time.

 

[Foghorn]

Lets touch on one more for now.

If regeneration precedes faith, how do you deal with the following texts?

John 20:30-31
Jesus did many other miraculous signs in the presence of his disciples, which are not recorded in this book. 31 But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

The order presented in this verse is:

1. Recorded miracles
2. Belief
3. By belief - New life (Regeneration)

It would have been foolish of John to write, “that by believing you may have life” if it were by having new life that they would believe.

A lost sinner is saved by faith alone in Christ alone, and God chose to use the gospel to gather His elect (But these are written that you may believe), scripture says, " for it is the power of salvation....."

You have a preconceived idea as far as I can see, because you keep putting regeneration at the end of your reasoning: (3. By belief - New life (Regeneration)

Curious, is this something you do intentionally or do you not understand regeneration? I ask this respectfully, I am really curious.

But these are written that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.

Again, it is by the hearing of the gospel that is the power unto salvation. It is through regeneration, our mystical union with Christ, that we receive the gift of faith to believe unto salvation. For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 1 Cor 1:18.

 

[Foghorn]

Galatians 3:2,5
I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,or by believing what you heard?… 5 Does God give you his Spiritandwork miracles among you because you observe the law, or because you believe what you heard?

The correct answer to the first question is that I received the Spirit when I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is received

The correct answer to the second question is that God gave me His Spirit because I believed what I heard.

1.Recipient hears Word
2.Recipient believes Word
3.Spirit is given

Pardon me for saying but this passages is treated completely out of context.


If you read through Galatians you will discover Paul was writing to them to deal with them for deserting the true gospel, Gal 1:6-7
6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another one, but there are some who trouble you and want to distort the gospel of Christ.

Gal 3:1 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you?............


So Paul is reminding them and instructing them in the gospel,

I would like to learn just one thing from you: Did you receive the Spirit by observing the law,or by believing what you heard?

He is not suggesting anywhere they they received the Spirit and were born again by their free will choice, only, how did they receive the Spirit? By the law? Or, by the hearing of the word? This should be plain to see.

When scripture is kept in its context, the plain meaning is there, whether or not we want to accept it is another thing.

 

[gmm4j]

Hi Foghorn,

I would love to answer you, but I have been told that I can only do so in the debate forum. So, each of the verses above has a thread in the debate forum named Faith Precedes Regeneration #1 thru 7. If you would like to move your responses there I will gladly deal with them.

Blessings!