Order and Design

[David Gould]

EVEN NOTHING IS SOMETHING:by Jason S.Fessenden

Everything was Nothing before there was something.
Everything is something even if its nothing at all.
For nothingness came from something;
And that something has always been there.
Without an Infinite designer,nothing,could not have ever been.
For even nothing...is something..

God spoke;
And everything became something and everything around us.

We can try and question the reasoning of this poem,but the poem will not fall nor bend. Nothing has no essense or mass or color. If we would give nothing a color we would compair it to a clear coat paint. The paint is there and yet,theres nothing. But you do know the clear paint is there so you know even the nothingness exist. But it only exist through your own handy work of creation. your the one who sprayed the paint.so in reality,Without a designer,we would even have that clear color coated paint.
In the universe the same rules apply:
Every design implies a designer;
Everydesigner implies a cause;
The designers cause was man!
God created the universe with man in mind.

Still not convinced?
If nothing produced something than what does nothing look like?
Blackness is of nothingness yet a mixure of colors.
White is justified by the complete spectrum of light.
A Blackhole is of nothingness yet has form,energy,and a cause.A blackhole is without a doubt-something.
Does nothing have emotions?
Can nothing think?
Does nothing cry?
Does nothing forgive?
Does nothing dream?
Is nothing well organized?
Is the belief in nothing even a rational concept?

Firstly, this argument does not address the idea that everything we see has always existed in one form or another (eternal universe and all that).

Secondly, it does not address the idea that time began with the rest of the universe and thus there never was nothing - at no time in this history of the universe has nothing existed.

Thirdly, it does not address the problem of where the designer came from. If organisation needs organisation to create it, was there a super God? And a super duper God, ad infinitum?

Fourthly, it does not address the idea that we do not understand exactly what 'nothingness' would entail. It could be that nothingness is "a potentiality for something".

As soon as you use the word 'nothing' you are suggesting that it is something - if it weren't, you could not use the term.

 

[JohnR7]

Originally Posted by lucaspa
What you mean when you say "design", John, is that God directly manufactures each organism.

I asked a question, and I was hoping to get some answers and learn something. But I understand no one is getting paid here, so I am not going to be disappointed if people just want to degenerate to the usual status quo of tradeing quips and insults.

John, I question whether you have a personal relationship with God.

I do not question it at all, because I can ask God what I am wanting to know and understand and He helps me with it. In a way that makes me feel like a worthwhile human being and not a worthless peice of ****.

 

[goat37]

Who says there is great order and design in the universe?

Our perception of the universe is a gilded one... On the surface, everything is in grand scale, planets have the shape of circles, stars twinkle, galaxies look like spinwheels, and you would think 'a place for everything, and everything in it's place'. This is not true in the slightest.

What you know is what you have learned in school about general relativity. What you have to do is look under the gilded facade and you will see that everything is not on a grand scale, but is made up of things so tiny it's hard to even comprehend. This is what we call quantum mechanics. If you ask most people what is the smallest 'particle', most people would say the atom. This is not the case, atoms are each made of of protons, electrons and neutrons... and from there, each of those is made up of quarks (up, down, top, bottom, strange, charmed), and it is thought now that those are made up of 'strings'. Now, with the string theory, there are as many as 11 dimensions or more... no particular order or even design in them. But a way to put it in perspective is this: everything in the universe has order, but it is not designed order, it just happens to be that this universe has a particular order about it that allows for things to be the way they are. I know that sounds a little cryptic, but it's true. If the universe were not expanding the way it is, or if gravity isn't the way it is, if hydrogen never fused with oxygen to create water, life would not be around to see it.
It is even possible we are not in the only universe that exists, we may just be in the one that is able to support life. The only reason that you are able to be alive and think about God/science, is because the universe is the way it is. I don't think you can really call it 'order', but more of a coincidental order.

If there was an implicit design and order to everything, galaxies would not collide, black holes would not be formed, and the sun would not blow up in 5 billion years and take out most of our solar system. The universe is built upon chaos that started with order (if you believe in the bing bang, and one singularity) but has been increasingly DISordered ever since (i.e. second law of thermodynamics).

So you look at that beautiful snowflake, and it's intricate design and how unique it is, put it under a microscope and you will see the same thing as anything else, built of elements and atoms, and protons, neutrons, electrons, quarks, and strings... strings that wrap themselves into microscopic different dimensions that have no bearing on how we live so can be mostly dismissed.

(And for John37 or whatever the heck his name is, who will call me a crazy nutbag for talking about different dimensions and strings blah blah blah... Until you understand how quantum mechanics, and general relativity work, don't post it. This M-theory (strings, multiple dimensions), is the way that is being scrutinized right now to be the link between them to get the grand unified theory of physics, or the 'theory of everything' as they like to put it. And i find it quite amusing for someone as yourself to call Hawking crazy for talking about aliens as if they existed, while you yourself believe in the 'grand alien' God as if he existed. I would go as far to say that there is FAR more proof of extra terrestrial life than there is of God. I'll give you THAT physics lesson anytime you want)

 

[webboffin]

Bagfullofsnakes said "The harm comes in when folks try to press their ideology onto other folks who don't share said ideology. Read: The conservative, republican, religious right."

Now I see double standards in that science pushes it's own ideologies too. Such as theory taken as a must be.

 

[JohnR7]

Who says there is great order and design in the universe?

That is a theory that was brought forth my a man by the name of Moses 3500 years ago. He was a Hebrew, but was raised and educated into the Egyptian education system in his day.

Genesis 1:14
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

Once you could establish the consistancy of the universe, then you could begin to make calanders and you could know when to plant your crops and this was used to organize their lives in other ways.

And i find it quite amusing for someone as yourself to call Hawking crazy for talking about aliens as if they existed, while you yourself believe in the 'grand alien' God as if he existed. I would go as far to say that there is FAR more proof of extra terrestrial life than there is of God. I'll give you THAT physics lesson anytime you want)

God is the "grand alien"? How can the God who created the universe be a alien? Perhaps you do not feel He is a part of your life. But I can assure you that He is very much an active part of my life.

You would not know what you know about the universe we live in, if He had not given you the ability to be able to comprehend & understand it. That is just your basic Theistic Anthropic Principle. In the strong from, we believe that God wants to be a active force in our life. In the weak form there are those who believe that God was the cause or the creator, but then like a big wind up toy He just lets the universe run itself with only maybe minor adjustments every now and then to keep it finely tuned.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Bagfullofsnakes said "The harm comes in when folks try to press their ideology onto other folks who don't share said ideology. Read: The conservative, republican, religious right."

Now I see double standards in that science pushes it's own ideologies too. Such as theory taken as a must be.

Actually, science takes its theories, publishes every bit of research that led to that theory, drops the whole thing at your feet, challenges you to prove it wrong, and applauds you as a hero if you succeed.

 

[Nathan Poe]

That is a theory that was brought forth my a man by the name of Moses 3500 years ago. He was a Hebrew, but was raised and educated into the Egyptian education system in his day.

1. There's nothing outside of the writings (first five books of the Bible)that proves that Moses ever existed.

2. It's painfully obvious that the "Moses" who wrote the other four books did not write the "theory" (Genesis)

3. His "theory" is little more than a pretty retelling of the mythology of the time.

Genesis 1:14
Then God said, "Let there be lights in the firmament of the heavens to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs and seasons, and for days and years;

Once you could establish the consistancy of the universe, then you could begin to make calanders and you could know when to plant your crops and this was used to organize their lives in other ways.

So every time we see some sort of pattern in the universe, that's God's way of doing us a favor?

God is the "grand alien"? How can the God who created the universe be a alien? Perhaps you do not feel He is a part of your life. But I can assure you that He is very much an active part of my life.

...and the Emporer's clothes are magical; fools cannot see them...

You would not know what you know about the universe we live in, if He had not given you the ability to be able to comprehend & understand it. That is just your basic Theistic Anthropic Principle. In the strong from, we believe that God wants to be a active force in our life. In the weak form there are those who believe that God was the cause or the creator, but then like a big wind up toy He just lets the universe run itself with only maybe minor adjustments every now and then to keep it finely tuned.

And do you have any reason for believing besides a desire to believe?

 

[goat37]

Sorry, but Moses (if he even existed) did not come up with any theory.

While a theory to most people is just an educated guess, or something that sounds like a good idea that we then need to prove, it is not.

A theory is based on facts and what we observe. Theories are facts, just more or less an explanation of them. Moses could not observe what was actually happening in the universe, moses did not have access to the technology we do now, nor did he have the intelligence required to understand it. (sorry, anyone who walks for 40 years without finding where the hell he was going, i don't consider very bright)

All of your evidence that you believe in, is in that 2000 year old book. That we have proven contains information that is wrong... the earth is not flat, the sun does not rotate around the earth, was no great flood that covered the earth, the earth is older than 6000 years, we are not the center of the universe. And one last thing, that it never makes clear, what did god make first: man or animal? There are two passages that each say the other came first. (got that info from the Internet Infidels message board, someone posted the passages, I can find them if you want)

So either you take the bible literally, and are a fundie. Or you don't take the bible literally and just take it for the ways of good it tries to promote. If you do take it literally, then how can you believe it all when so much of it has been proven wrong? And if you don't take it literally, maybe they just talked about God in a metaphorical sense, and he doesn't really exist, but was the only way to describe things they couldn't explain?

Christianity will die off within the next few hundred years, and the next new religion will take hold. Look at all the other religions of the world, they are either regarded as 'hokey', and works of fiction rather than reality because they contain things that 'just can't happen'. The same thing happened with Greek and Roman mythology, The Egyptians religion and all of their Gods. There is just too much wrong with the foundation of Christianity and it will never survive the scientific revolution it seems we are in. Go to Europe and try to spout what you believe there, you will be the laughing stock of the continent. They honestly don't believe that anyone really believes this stuff there...

If you want to live a good life, great, I commend you on that. If you want to help your fellow man and not do bad things, even better. But the reason WHY you do them, I question. I do those things as well, but because it makes ME feel good, not because I think it makes some mythical God feel good. You have no reason to believe what you do other than the fact that it was either passed on in your family from generation to generation, or you experienced something so bad in your life that you just gave up all hope to do things on your own and created some need that made this all make sense to you. Don't do things because it is the way they have always been done, ask questions and find truth. And don't pass responsibility for your life onto something that doesn't exist, it's a cop-out. Live your life for yourself and your family, and when you die, when you go back into the dirt and exist no more in any fashion, die knowing you lived life like YOU wanted to, not like you were told to.

 

[JohnR7]

the earth is not flat, the sun does not rotate around the earth

The usual straw man arguements. You disregard the evidence, then you make up your own facts and then try to disprove the so call facts that you just made up. No conversation here, except for the conversation that your having with yourself.

 

[JohnR7]

You have no reason to believe what you do other than the fact that it was either passed on in your family from generation to generation, or you experienced something so bad in your life that you just gave up all hope to do things on your own and created some need that made this all make sense to you.

Ok, here is something different, although I am not sure what it has to do with science. This usually gets discussed on the apologitics board.

I was not raised a christian, so we can disregard that. The question then becomes, did I have a need that God had the solution for. In my case yes, I have received a lot from God. He has been very good to me.

I believe creation can not function properly when God is not a part of it. I see a lot of disfunctional people who are that way, because they are trying to make it on their own, without God being a part of it.

 

[JohnR7]

And do you have any reason for believing besides a desire to believe?

God has been really good to me, much better then what I deserve. I made a pretty big mess out of my life and God helped me to straighten it all out.

 

[Siliconaut]

@John:

God is the "grand alien"? How can the God who created the universe be a alien? Perhaps you do not feel He is a part of your life. But I can assure you that He is very much an active part of my life.

Just like "aliens" are reported to be a very active part of other people's lives. In their case, I guess it's fair to conclude "aliens" have just taken over the role of religion for others...

 

[JohnR7]

@John:
Just like "aliens" are reported to be a very active part of other people's lives. In their case, I guess it's fair to conclude "aliens" have just taken over the role of religion for others...

Most christians conclude that "aliens" are fallen angels, otherwise known as demonic spirits that deceive people.

 

[Nathan Poe]

Most christians conclude that "aliens" are fallen angels, otherwise known as demonic spirits that deceive people.

I've heard that one myself. Good for a laugh.

Now, by "most Christians," don't you mean "far-out conspiracy theorists ridiculed and mocked by mainstream Christianity?"

 

[JohnR7]

I've heard that one myself. Good for a laugh.

Now, by "most Christians," don't you mean "far-out conspiracy theorists ridiculed and mocked by mainstream Christianity?"

It is not that we do not believe in a "conspiracy", it is just that we do not think that christians will be persecuted like that tell the tribulation period. So only the worldly church needs to worry about that. True, born again, spirit filled christians will be out of here in the rapture.

Perhaps you have a chance to make it out of here with us. If you had kept on going as a mainline christian, you could have been swept into the tribulation period right along with them.

 

[goat37]

The usual straw man arguements. You disregard the evidence, then you make up your own facts and then try to disprove the so call facts that you just made up. No conversation here, except for the conversation that your having with yourself.

I disregard evidence?!?!? what evidence? The bible is not evidence. I have no idea what facts I made up, or what 'facts' you say I am trying to disprove. Facts require some sort of empirical proof, the bible has NONE. Just because you believe it, doesn't make it true. I'd like to believe that no innocent children died of cancer, but that wouldn't make it true if I did.

Your beliefs have no scientific foundation whatsoever. You said it yourself, you were at a tough time in your life and God cleaned it up for you. So what you are telling me is that God came down, sat in your living room with you, talked to you directly, and right in front of you fixed your life?
I doubt it... (and if he did, what proof have you?)
Your life was bad, then by a twist of events things started to get better (or less bad things happened) and you say that God changed your life.

My best friend is a die-hard christian, rides his motorcycle around with all of his christain gear, goes to church, takes part in events, tries to live his life according to the bible... He and his family are on the verge of bankruptcy, and not even having enough money for food. He is unhappier now than I have ever seen him, and he keeps telling me that this is God's will, and God is testing him... what-the f*ck-ever.
Then there is me, I don't believe in God or religion (because there is no logical reason to believe), and I live in a beatiful home in Newport Beach, I have everything that I could want in life. I have the ability to think and fend for myself. I took control of my own life and did with it what I felt should be done. My friend, however, thought best to put it in God's hands (or rather, no one's hands), and his life is horrible. I have to help him buy groceries, have to watch his kids because he can't afford a baby sitter, all because he won't take responsibility for his own life.

The world is what WE make of it, not God. Your life didn't get better because of God, it got better either on chance or something that you did to change the way you lived. If God existed, why would he even waste his time saving someone like you and not that child in the cancer ward at the hospital? Life is full of causes and effects, and is controlled by the laws of the universe, and that's it.

I cannot hardly believe how frustrated that I get because of such ignorant people. Not guns, not pestilence, not famine kill as rapidly or as many as ignorance. I think I do need to get that bumper sticker that another poster talked about here: "Jesus save me from your followers"

 

[goat37]

Most christians conclude that "aliens" are fallen angels, otherwise known as demonic spirits that deceive people.

Aliens are fallen angels now? I thought you said before that aliens didn't exist?

Were you born in a barn and raised there? I cannot believe that one person can spout such ignorant writing. Do you even know what the definition of an 'alien' is? It could be someone from a different country.
But in the way that scientists use it, as life not from the planet earth. Whether it is a little green man, or if it is a single celled organism, it would be 'alien'.

You absolutely astound me with the blatant stupidity that you post. You have no evidence to support any of your claims than your say-so and the bible. (hint: neither are evidence or proof of ANYTHING) You have the audacity to dismiss what I say as science fiction or false, when every claim I have made can be backed up by any true student of science. Next time you are in prayer, why can't you ask God to bless you with a clue?

 

[goat37]

Ok, I am calm now.

I apologize, I do not mean to name call or insult, I get very heated about these topics.

So, please accept my apology, and I'll keep future posts clean of unwarranted name calling.

 

[JohnR7]

So what you are telling me is that God came down, sat in your living room with you, talked to you directly, and right in front of you fixed your life?

Actually, yes. He did not sit down though. I use to get up early in the morning and spend about an hour by myself in the living room. Now I would call it prayer, but at the time it was just quiet time, just me and my own thoughts. Then one day, when I was home along on my day off, God came and visited me and asked me if I wanted to dedicate my life to Him. Actually, it was most likely an Angel with a message from God.

The way it worked for me, I was seeking after God, for maybe 10 years. Then God lead me to His Son Jesus. Jesus lead me to the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit lead me back to Jesus, and Jesus lead me back to the Father.

One "fix" for my life is that if I get fed up with the way things are with this world, then I just sort of ignore it, and start to have a conversation with Heaven. I may talk to Jesus, or the Father. Or I may have an angel take a message back and forth with someone who is departed and who is in Heaven. Even very important people in Heaven you can have a conversation with if you want. But it will be a brief conversation, because Heaven is very pure, and they can only communicate with us in absolute purity. That is why I refer to it as sending post cards back and forth. For me it is never a long conversation.

 

[JohnR7]

Ok, I am calm now.

So, please accept my apology, and I'll keep future posts clean of unwarranted name calling.

You can go back and edit them if you want. They are not cast in cement or anything like that.