Open Theism - ?? what definition for it?

[Gary K]

Here is the prophecy from Luke.

Luke 22:31-34 KJV — And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

This has as much to do with Satan as it does with Peter. Jesus knew both Satan's and Peter's strengths and weaknesses. He knew, probably, exactly how far he would let Satan go in this temptation (like He did with Job's). He likely limited Satan to 3 attempts (similar to His own temptation in the wilderness). And finally, this was spoken when Peter existed, standing on front of Him, not before the foundation of the earth.

This certainly does not make a case for God knowing every detail of Peter's life before the foundation of the world.

But if that were the case, then either God or someone more powerful than God, predetermined that Peter would reject Christ. Then Peter had nothing to do with the decision.

Oh. So Jesus "probably" limited the devil to three tries? You're going to hang your hat on a "probably"?

How many tries did Job's three friends have at him? If you will remember Job said his entire family deserted him too. Seems to me Job lost all his possessions and all his children too. That was only 3 tries?

The devil first tried to get Peter in the garden of Gethsemane. He got Peter so mad Peter drew his sword. Peter just couldn't handle the fact that Jesus' prophecy had come true and it broke his heart that he had denied his Lord.

.Mat 26:75 And Peter remembered the saying of Jesus, “Before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times.” And he went out and wept bitterly.

Ellen White tells us in The Desire of Ages that Peter turned and ran not knowing or caring where he went. He ended up in the garden of Gethsemane weeping on the ground in the same place Jesus had sweat blood carrying the load of all our sins.

 

[Gary K]

@Derf

Hey, where'd you go? I'm still waiting for your response.

 

[Derf]

Oh. So Jesus "probably" limited the devil to three tries? You're going to hang your hat on a "probably"?

Hang my hat? Not at all. But if there are minimal scriptures that God knows what a man will choose ahead of time, while there are many where God is waiting to see what people are choosing, it makes more sense to explain how He knows something about a man's choice than how He doesn't know something about a lot of choices. Can you explain that part?

How many tries did Job's three friends have at him?

Why does that matter?

If you will remember Job said his entire family deserted him too.

His "entire family" consisted of his wife, since God children were dead.

Seems to me Job lost all his possessions and all his children too. That was only 3 tries?

Depends on how you number them.

1. Satan destroys his possessions
2. Satan destroys his health
3. His friends accuse him falsely.

I count 3.

The devil first tried to get Peter in the garden of Gethsemane. He got Peter so mad Peter drew his sword.

Not related.

Peter just couldn't handle the fact that Jesus' prophecy had come true and it broke his heart that he had denied his Lord.

Agreed, but the sword thing was prior to the denial.

Ellen White tells us in The Desire of Ages that Peter turned and ran not knowing or caring where he went. He ended up in the garden of Gethsemane weeping on the ground in the same place Jesus had sweat blood carrying the load of all our sins.

That's nice, but it can't be verified by eye-witness accounts, so it doesn't count for anything but a nice, apocryphal story.

 

[Gary K]

Hang my hat? Not at all. But if there are minimal scriptures that God knows what a man will choose ahead of time, while there are many where God is waiting to see what people are choosing, it makes more sense to explain how He knows something about a man's choice than how He doesn't know something about a lot of choices. Can you explain that part?




Why does that matter?


His "entire family" consisted of his wife, since God children were dead.


Depends on how you number them.

1. Satan destroys his possessions
2. Satan destroys his health
3. His friends accuse him falsely.

I count 3.


Not related.

Agreed, but the sword thing was prior to the denial.

That's nice, but it can't be verified by eye-witness accounts, so it doesn't count for anything but a nice, apocryphal story.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

You don't have brothers or sisters since you got married? You also forgot all of Job's kids in your count. That's 5 if you count his brothers and sisters as one and his kids as another. I'm sure it didn't feel like that to Job. He was completely alone as it appears the concept of blaming someone for any calamity that came upon them was universal in Job's day where he lived. Even someone as well known as Job for being a righteous man.

Legalism is nothing new as it is the root of paganism.

I disagree with you as to the evidence that God knows the future. I see all kinds of it.

I don't think you've ever been completely alone or you wouldn't ignore his brothers and sisters or his kids. I know exactly what it feels like as I grew up completely without emotional support from my family. They were more like Job's three friends than family. It's a catastrophe all it's own,

 

[Derf]

You don't have brothers or sisters since you got married? You also forgot all of Job's kids in your count. That's 5 if you count his brothers and sisters as one and his kids as another. I'm sure it didn't feel like that to Job. He was completely alone as it appears the concept of blaming someone for any calamity that came upon them was universal in Job's day where he lived. Even someone as well known as Job for being a righteous man.

If course we can easily find all kinds of different ways to count Job's temptations. But the point is that God limited Satan in his temptations of Job. His seems to have limited Satan in his temptations of Jesus. Paul tells us that God will not allow more temptations than we can bear. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that God limited Satan's temptation of Peter, and because Jesus said Peter would deny Him a specific number of times, Satan must have been limited there, too.

Legalism is nothing new as it is the root of paganism.

I disagree with you as to the evidence that God knows the future. I see all kinds of it.

Indeed. But if there is a single instance where God didn't know the future, or where the future changed, then all of the evidence for God knowing some of the future fails to show He knows the future exhaustively. You're trying to prove an absolute truth (God knows EVERYTHING about the future) with relative data points. I'm trying to prove a relative truth (God knows some things about the future, and doesn't know some things) with relative data points.

That makes your argument one from silence, or more probably, one from emotion.

I don't think you've ever been completely alone or you wouldn't ignore his brothers and sisters or his kids. I know exactly what it feels like as I grew up completely without emotional support from my family. They were more like Job's three friends than family. It's a catastrophe all it's own,

Like I said, you're arguing from emotion.

 

[Gary K]

If course we can easily find all kinds of different ways to count Job's temptations. But the point is that God limited Satan in his temptations of Job. His seems to have limited Satan in his temptations of Jesus. Paul tells us that God will not allow more temptations than we can bear. It is therefore reasonable to conclude that God limited Satan's temptation of Peter, and because Jesus said Peter would deny Him a specific number of times, Satan must have been limited there, too.


Indeed. But if there is a single instance where God didn't know the future, or where the future changed, then all of the evidence for God knowing some of the future fails to show He knows the future exhaustively. You're trying to prove an absolute truth (God knows EVERYTHING about the future) with relative data points. I'm trying to prove a relative truth (God knows some things about the future, and doesn't know some things) with relative data points.

That makes your argument one from silence, or more probably, one from emotion.



Like I said, you're arguing from emotion.

No. I'm "arguing" from a point of view that you have never experienced thus you cannot truly understand it. It's kind of like what Jesus told Nicodemus.

Joh 3:11 Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.

If you think God limited how Jesus could be tempted then He isn't truly our Savior because He didn't really overcome sin. He only overcame a portion of it. In other words God isn't really greater than sin if Jesus didn't overcome it through faith in His Father.

The only limitation God placed on Satan was that he couldn't take Job's life.

Job 2:6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

Just because God makes a way of escape doesn't necessarily mean that God limit's Satan's ability to tempt us. It can also mean that God will supply the means to withstand the temptation. That's my understanding of the text.

1Co_10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

There is no way that text says what you think it means.

In the garden of Gethsemane Jesus was dying from carrying the load of the guilt of the world. His Father strengthened Him to carry it. How else do you explain Jesus feeling so heavy He fell to the ground and yet having the strength to last all Thursday night and Friday.

Mar 14:33 And he taketh with him Peter and James and John, and began to be sore amazed, and to be very heavy;
Mar 14:34 And saith unto them, My soul is exceeding sorrowful unto death: tarry ye here, and watch.
Mar 14:35 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.
Mar 14:36 And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
Mar 14:37 And he cometh, and findeth them sleeping, and saith unto Peter, Simon, sleepest thou? couldest not thou watch one hour?
Mar 14:38 Watch ye and pray, lest ye enter into temptation. The spirit truly is ready, but the flesh is weak.
Mar 14:39 And again he went away, and prayed, and spake the same words.
Mar 14:40 And when he returned, he found them asleep again, (for their eyes were heavy,) neither wist they what to answer him.
Mar 14:41 And he cometh the third time, and saith unto them, Sleep on now, and take your rest: it is enough, the hour is come; behold, the Son of man is betrayed into the hands of sinners.