Open Theism - ?? what definition for it?

[Gary K]

Where does it say that He does? This: "thou understandest my thought afar off"? Are you suggesting "afar off" means "before I think them"? Why would it mean that?

The bible never says that He does. Never.

Maybe. But I think you're too enamored to see her flaws. Be careful not to put your spiritual leader on too high a pedestal, or it will result in your not being able to discern truth from falsehood, like Islam, or Mormonism.

I guess you have not spent a lot of time in Revelation.

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So God knew from the foundation of the world who would and would not be saved.

And here is another scripture for you,

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

 

[Derf]

I don't see that this helps you. How does God know all our thoughts before we think them? And how does God know who will be saved and who will be lost from the foundation of the world?



I like it that you're reading Ellen White. I didn't know this compilation existed and I've been reading her writings for decades. You keep it up and you will see a picture of the love of God you can find nowhere else than in the Bible. I know of no other single human being who has so clearly expressed the love of God

This is another problem from that link:
She said: "God knows all things, not by study and research as man learns the little he knows, but because he is God. He inhabits eternity."
But she also quoted the verse that tells us how God knows things about us, that He "searches us". These statements of hers conflict with each other, and notice that she has chosen the unsupported side of the conflict to accept...without scriptural support. All she offers is a description that seems to come from her own preconceptions. She refers to
Isaiah 57:15 KJV — For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

But a few verses later, the text explains how God knows he has a contrite heart:
Isaiah 57:18 KJV — I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.

This means she's willing to ignore what the scripture she referenced says in favor of a preconception about how God knows something (everything?).

 

[Gary K]

This is another problem from that link:
She said: "God knows all things, not by study and research as man learns the little he knows, but because he is God. He inhabits eternity."
But she also quoted the verse that tells us how God knows things about us, that He "searches us". These statements of hers conflict with each other, and notice that she has chosen the unsupported side of the conflict to accept...without scriptural support. All she offers is a description that seems to come from her own preconceptions. She refers to
Isaiah 57:15 KJV — For thus saith the high and lofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in the high and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.

But a few verses later, the text explains how God knows he has a contrite heart:
Isaiah 57:18 KJV — I have seen his ways, and will heal him: I will lead him also, and restore comforts unto him and to his mourners.

This means she's willing to ignore what the scripture she referenced says in favor of a preconception about how God knows something (everything?).

Why are you ignoring the verses I quoted to you that show God definitely knows the future?

 

[Derf]

I guess you have not spent a lot of time in Revelation.




So God knew from the foundation of the world who would and would not be saved.

And here is another scripture for you,

Why are you ignoring the verses I quoted to you that show God definitely knows the future?

Not ignoring...just haven't responded yet.

 

[Gary K]

Not ignoring...just haven't responded yet.

Ok, although I don't know what good time will do you.

 

[Derf]

Ok, although I don't know what good time will do you.

Because you will then be ignoring my answer?

 

[Derf]

I guess you've never read parts of Revelation as it says exactly that.

Rev_17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world,when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

So God has known from the foundation of the world who would be saved and who wouldn't be saved.

This is a good verse for your position, but it points out the flaws we previously discussed--that if we are determined before we exist that we will go to hell, and it's due to our sinful behavior, then the sinful behavior is predetermined, either by God (Calvinism), or by somebody greater than God (Arminianism, your view).

I think, rather, this is a reference to trusting in the one who was slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 KJV — And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You can see there that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, which allowed there to be a book of life. He wasn't actually slain at the foundation of the world, but somewhere around 30 AD. That phrase refers to a plan of God that was set in motion when Adam sinned, and concocted even before he sinned. So the phrase indicates something God planned, but did not execute, at the foundation. The people written in His book of life were planned, not as individuals, but as the group that would believe in Christ. The other group were also planned for, God knowing some would not believe, even if He didn't know who would believe and who wouldn't (or even who would be conceived in the course of the world).

Without that understanding, you are driven into Calvinism, which we both reject for obvious reasons.

Psa 139:16 Thine eyes did see my substance, yet being unperfect; and in thy book all my members were written, which in continuance were fashioned, when as yet there was none of them.

This psalm is speaking of David being formed (his "members" are his body parts) in the womb. "Thy book" again refers to the plan of his formation, maybe the DNA that directs it.

Jer 1:4 Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
Jer 1:5 Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations.

Are you saying God can't ordain a prophet without knowing the future exhaustively? I don't see why that's necessary. I can ordain someone to speak at an event, and tell him what to say, without knowing all the future.

 

[Gary K]

Because you will then be ignoring my answer?

Right.... You know better than that.

 

[Gary K]

@Derf

When are you going to get back with me? I'm waiting with bated breath to know what you decide as I like you. I consider you my friend so your eternal welfare is of a lot of importance to me..

 

[Derf]

@Derf

When are you going to get back with me? I'm waiting with bated breath to know what you decide as I like you. I consider you my friend so your eternal welfare is of a lot of importance to me..

See Open Theism - ?? what definition for it?

 

[Gary K]

This is a good verse for your position, but it points out the flaws we previously discussed--that if we are determined before we exist that we will go to hell, and it's due to our sinful behavior, then the sinful behavior is predetermined, either by God (Calvinism), or by somebody greater than God (Arminianism, your view).

I think, rather, this is a reference to trusting in the one who was slain from the foundation of the world.
Revelation 13:8 KJV — And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

You can see there that the lamb was slain from the foundation of the world, which allowed there to be a book of life. He wasn't actually slain at the foundation of the world, but somewhere around 30 AD. That phrase refers to a plan of God that was set in motion when Adam sinned, and concocted even before he sinned. So the phrase indicates something God planned, but did not execute, at the foundation. The people written in His book of life were planned, not as individuals, but as the group that would believe in Christ. The other group were also planned for, God knowing some would not believe, even if He didn't know who would believe and who wouldn't (or even who would be conceived in the course of the world).

Without that understanding, you are driven into Calvinism, which we both reject for obvious reasons.



This psalm is speaking of David being formed (his "members" are his body parts) in the womb. "Thy book" again refers to the plan of his formation, maybe the DNA that directs it.

Are you saying God can't ordain a prophet without knowing the future exhaustively? I don't see why that's necessary. I can ordain someone to speak at an event, and tell him what to say, without knowing all the future.

1. You aren't God. That should go without saying.

2. Scripture plainly says in three different p;aces that God knew before time who different people would be. He had to know ahead of time they would love Him and that they would be honest for God cannot use a dishonest prophet as dishonest people are unreliable. :

3. To know who would be saved ahead of time God had to know all those people would be honest too.

Luk_8:15 But that on the good ground are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience.

The only good soil was the patient honest heart in Jesus' parable of the sower. Jesus had to know who they would be before they were born or He could not have told that parable for He would have been lying if He honesty wasn't a prerequiste for salvation.

 

[Derf]

1. You aren't God. That should go without saying.

Then why bother saying it? Do you think it somehow strengthens your argument? Please explain how.

2. Scripture plainly says in three different p;aces

Please provide those so we can talk about them.

that God knew before time who different people would be.

The bible talks of some (not all) specific people God had specific plans for, yes.

He had to know ahead of time they would love Him

Did He? How do you know this? Is it possible for His to use someone for His own purpose who doesn't love Him? Cyrus comes to mind. (We don't know if Cyrus came to know God, but at one time he was performing God's works withoutout knowing Him.)
Isaiah 45:1 KJV — Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;...
Isaiah 45:4 KJV — For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.

and that they would be honest for God cannot use a dishonest prophet as dishonest people are unreliable. :

Balaam was a dishonest prophet.

3. To know who would be saved ahead of time God had to know all those people would be honest too.

Confirmation bias, anyone?

The only good soil was the patient honest heart in Jesus' parable of the sower.

Ok.

Jesus had to know who they would be before they were born or He could not have told that parable for He would have been lying if He honesty wasn't a prerequiste for salvation.

But why would not Jesus be able to tell a parable that applies to anyone who exercises patience with an honest heart? Don't you think that parable still applies to people today? And doesn't it apply to ANYONE ("whosoever") that receives the word gladly, and bears fruit?

I certainly don't see that Jesus was somehow speaking of particular people in that parable... He didn't name any.

 

[Gary K]

Then why bother saying it? Do you think it somehow strengthens your argument? Please explain how.


Please provide those so we can talk about them.

The bible talks of some (not all) specific people God had specific plans for, yes.


Did He? How do you know this? Is it possible for His to use someone for His own purpose who doesn't love Him? Cyrus comes to mind. (We don't know if Cyrus came to know God, but at one time he was performing God's works withoutout knowing Him.)
Isaiah 45:1 KJV — Thus saith the LORD to his anointed, to Cyrus, whose right hand I have holden, to subdue nations before him; and I will loose the loins of kings, to open before him the two leaved gates; and the gates shall not be shut;...
Isaiah 45:4 KJV — For Jacob my servant's sake, and Israel mine elect, I have even called thee by thy name: I have surnamed thee, though thou hast not known me.



Balaam was a dishonest prophet.

Confirmation bias, anyone?

Ok.


But why would not Jesus be able to tell a parable that applies to anyone who exercises patience with an honest heart? Don't you think that parable still applies to people today? And doesn't it apply to ANYONE ("whosoever") that receives the word gladly, and bears fruit?

I certainly don't see that Jesus was somehow speaking of particular people in that parable... He didn't name any.

I can say the same for you. Confirmation bias.

Of course only honest people are saved, and always have been the only people saved.

Balaam didn't last as a prophet. When he sold out for money he was forced to say things but that was the end of him being a prophet. And God had to scare Him badly by showing him an angel standing by to kill him.

Num_31:8 And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword.

God's people killed Balaam, He had allied himself with God's enemies. That's the end of someone who turns against God. Death whether they die directly fighting God's people or not.

Do you really think honesty doesn't matter to God? Just because Cyrus was a pagan doesn't measn he wasn't honest. It seems to be an in born trait. I have a brother that is a liar. I am not. My brother is no longer a Christian and hasn't been for many decades. Not since he tried to murder me when I was in the eighth grade and I very much doubt he was long before that by his behavior his entire life. A bully, a sexual pervert, a liar, a manipulator, and very selfish. All attributes that say no relationship with God. He was born like that. He had to have been as he was manipulative, a bully and a liar from a young age. In fact when I think about it he was a sexual pervert from an early age as he would find ways to get me naked and run around naked. He would talk me into doing it.

Character traits, as I just demonstrated are in born. God knew who would have them. I can tell you the devil somehow knew from the very beginning too as my life has been an intense spiritual struggle from the very first. God has saved my life, miraculously. quite a few times. The first time in the 1st or 2nd grade. God stopped my brother from killing me in the eighth grade and after that saved it several more times as well as stopped the devil from possessing me after I became a Christian. My guardian angel has spoken to me twice. And after I spent years attempting to destroy my mind with drugs, psychedelics were something I have done a lot of and watched my mind fly out the window one night, It left me with extreme anxiety for a lot of years. And the abuse left me unable to make friends until a few years ago. God has given me back my mind too. I was born with a really good mind and I had destroyed it to the point I couldn't hold down a job pushing a broom. Literally. I got fired from a job pushing a broom because I couldn't do a good job of it.

My mind is actually better than it was before I started doing drugs. I was never any good at math. I had to drop out of algebra 2 to keep from flunking it in high school. After I got married I taught myself the principles of physics in less than an hour. I used to collect old books and I found an old physics book from the later 1890s at a yard sale. I taught myself physics from that book well enough that maybe 10 years ago or so I struck up a conversation with an older guy in a Walmart parking lot who was had a masters and a phd. He had an MBA and a phd in math We were talking and for some reason I told him the story of how I had taught myself physics. I told him I had realized very early on in reading that old physics book that physics was nothing more than ratios. We went on talking and about 10 minutes later he said, you're right. I couldn't figure out what he was talking about so I asked, about what? He said that physics is all about ratios, Here he was with years of education in math and he had never realized what I had figured out in a half hour or less; God has really blessed me since I became a Christian. I can't take any credit for it.

God just knows who we are before we are born. I'm convinced of it.

 

[Derf]

God's people killed Balaam, He had allied himself with God's enemies. That's the end of someone who turns against God. Death whether they die directly fighting God's people or not.

None of which negates my point that God can still use dishonest people to accomplish His ends.

Do you really think honesty doesn't matter to God?

Do you really think that's what I said? That seems dishonest. You said God couldn't use dishonest people. I gave you a specific instance where God did use a dishonest person. What became of him after that has no bearing on my point. That makes it a red herring fallacy.

Just because Cyrus was a pagan doesn't measn he wasn't honest.

That wasn't the point. You seem to have trouble following an argument. God said Cyrus didn't know Him. You said God couldn't use people that didn't know Him. I showed you in scripture that God used someone who did not know Him.

It seems to be an in born trait. I have a brother that is a liar. I am not.

That doesn't mean it's an inborn trait. But even if it is, Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous.

My brother is no longer a Christian and hasn't been for many decades. Not since he tried to murder me when I was in the eighth grade and I very much doubt he was long before that by his behavior his entire life. A bully, a sexual pervert, a liar, a manipulator, and very selfish. All attributes that say no relationship with God. He was born like that. He had to have been as he was manipulative, a bully and a liar from a young age. In fact when I think about it he was a sexual pervert from an early age as he would find ways to get me naked and run around naked. He would talk me into doing it.

Character traits, as I just demonstrated are in born.

You demonstrated no such thing.

God knew who would have them.

You didn't demonstrate this either.

I can tell you the devil somehow knew from the very beginning too as my life has been an intense spiritual struggle from the very first.

You can make that statement, but nothing you've written proves the statement is true. The devil is cunning. He can tell where a person is weak and tempt in those areas. But that doesn't mean he knows anything about us from before we exist. Saying he does puts him on the same level as God, in terms of your view of omniscience.

 

[Derf]

God just knows who we are before we are born. I'm convinced of it.

I missed this part in my answer.
If God knows who we are before we are born, I think you are saying He knows all of the sins we'll commit before we are born. And that means all of the sins we will commit are predetermined, before we have any say in them. That means we aren't free to decide whether we sin or don't sin--our choices are determined before we exist by someone. Is that someone God? Or is that someone else besides God? (It wasn't you or me, because it was decided before we existed.)

 

[Gary K]

None of which negates my point that God can still use dishonest people to accomplish His ends.

Do you really think that's what I said? That seems dishonest. You said God couldn't use dishonest people. I gave you a specific instance where God did use a dishonest person. What became of him after that has no bearing on my point. That makes it a red herring fallacy.


That wasn't the point. You seem to have trouble following an argument. God said Cyrus didn't know Him. You said God couldn't use people that didn't know Him. I showed you in scripture that God used someone who did not know Him.


That doesn't mean it's an inborn trait. But even if it is, Jesus came to save sinners, not the righteous.


You demonstrated no such thing.


You didn't demonstrate this either.


You can make that statement, but nothing you've written proves the statement is true. The devil is cunning. He can tell where a person is weak and tempt in those areas. But that doesn't mean he knows anything about us from before we exist. Saying he does puts him on the same level as God, in terms of your view of omniscience.

Balaam was honest before he let greed get the better of him. Just like Judas. Jesus gave him the power to heal, cast out demons. etc.. but when he gave himself over to greed his relationship with God collapsed and he killed himself. It's possible for anyone. prophet or not, to walk away from their relationship with God.

I addressed Cyrus from the point of him being honest. People are honest or dishonest from birth. There are hereditary and cultivated sins and it is a mistake to think all sins are cultivated. We inherited our sinful natures from Adam and the longer time has gone on the more genetic issues we have. On hereditary sins. my older brother was much more like my mother than I was. I was much more like my old man. I inherited his alcoholic gene and stubbornness. I knew my mom to lie and my older brother inherited it from her. He crtainly didn't get it from our environment as my old man was the dominant personality in the family.

Yes, Jesus came to save sinners but the vast majority will not accept His sacrifice. Only 7 people accepted the means of salvation at the time of the flood.

I have demonstrated things to my satisfaction. I don't believe I can demonstrate enough evidence for you to accept my point of view because I don't believe your mind is open right now on this subject. I do believe it will be one day.

 

[Derf]

I have demonstrated things to my satisfaction. I don't believe I can demonstrate enough evidence for you to accept my point of view because I don't believe your mind is open right now on this subject.

My mind isn't any less open to your point of view than yours is to mine.

I do believe it will be one day.

Well, one of ours will be one day.

 

[Gary K]

My mind isn't any less open to your point of view than yours is to mine.

Well, one of ours will be one day.

I don't believe it is. I'm just as convinced I'm right as you are that you're right.

 

[Gary K]

Mar_14:72 And the second time the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.My mind isn't any less open to your point of view than yours is to mine.

Well, one of ours will be one day.

I have more evidence for you that show open theism is false.

Mar_14:30 And Jesus saith unto him, Verily I say unto thee, That this day, even in this night, before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice.

Mar_14:72 And the second time the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew. And Peter called to mind the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

Jesus prophecied with very specific detail the behavior of Peter. If He didn't know the exact details of what was yet to come He could not have done this.

 

[Derf]

I have more evidence for you that show open theism is false.





Jesus prophecied with very specific detail the behavior of Peter. If He didn't know the exact details of what was yet to come He could not have done this.

Here is the prophecy from Luke.

Luke 22:31-34 KJV — And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren. And he said unto him, Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death. And he said, I tell thee, Peter, the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] shall not crow this day, before that thou shalt thrice deny that thou knowest me.

This has as much to do with Satan as it does with Peter. Jesus knew both Satan's and Peter's strengths and weaknesses. He knew, probably, exactly how far he would let Satan go in this temptation (like He did with Job's). He likely limited Satan to 3 attempts (similar to His own temptation in the wilderness). And finally, this was spoken when Peter existed, standing on front of Him, not before the foundation of the earth.

This certainly does not make a case for God knowing every detail of Peter's life before the foundation of the world.

But if that were the case, then either God or someone more powerful than God, predetermined that Peter would reject Christ. Then Peter had nothing to do with the decision.