[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

[Leanna]

Julyshemustfly: My friend who has a just 8 yr old and just 7 yr old twins says that it all gets totally different for the best once they turn 7. So sorry, you got a bit longer to wait, but it really does get better!

Bananacake: your original question was, "what do you do if they are just downright rebellious?" and I'm not sure we've really tackled that for you yet. There was some stuff on defiance on pages 7 and 8 of this thread, but here's my attempt at a more practical answer. Not saying I can do this, but here is how I understand the theory...

Non-punitive (NP), gentle, grace-based discipline (whatever you want to call it) is about having a long term game plan. It tries to be proactive as much as possible, and avoid the reactive parenting that often results in the need for punishment. I guess to some extent it depends on the character and age of the child(ren) in question, but the starting point as I see it is to ask what is causing the defiance. Often the causes are:
1. low blood sugar
2. tiredness
3. needing reassurance
4. changes happening too quickly (e.g. from one activity to another)
5. anger displaced from an unrelated incident, trying to get back at you, feel more powerful etc. (which typically arises with very punitive styles of parenting - so the defiance-punishment cycle is a vicious one)

NP practices are NOT about kids running the home, doing what they want, and running rings around parents that are 'soft'. You are always in control, using your God-given authority over your children. And boundaries are vital to that. Some things just have to be done / happen; some behaviors just are inappropriate.

As a high school teacher (who has to have full authority in the classroom at all times) I can tell you that getting locked into a battle of wills with a child is a hopeless cause. They will always go further than you, because they have less to lose. As parents it is all too easy to 'get into the arena' with our kids (you WILL do this because I say so, response: NO, make me!) and in the end we can enforce our will because we are more powerful, can impose punishments etc. But what the kids have learned on a profound level is that might is right and they are no better equipped to handle their own emotions or make the right choices independently.

Putting all of that together, what do I (ideally) do about open defiance?
1. Take a step backwards from the situation
2. Mentally check their food and sleep status - if these are depleted, getting mad will achieve nothing, a box of raisins and a glass of water might.
3. Give them a hug and explain why I am asking them to do that (again)
4. If the answer is still no, ask them to explain why they object (learning to verbalize) and then talk it through with them. For example, often they just want to finish what they were doing before they are ready to move on
5. We reach a solution in which I get my way, but in a manner which is acceptable to us both.

Defiance is rare if you have taken the time to prepare them for what is happening (e.g. when this book is finished we're going to brush our teeth, ok?) and can often be diffused by not allowing it to become a power struggle.

If you don't feel comfortable with that, you might like Ross Campbell's recommendation (How to Really parent your Child) for how to get things done. If the first step doesn't do it, move to the next one and so on:

1. Politely request that the child does whatever you want them to do (or stops doing what you don't want them to do)
2. Command your child to do it / stop
3. Gentle physical manipulation (moving them away or whatever)
4. Punishment - which has to be age, child, and "crime" appropriate.

Technically that of course is not NP, but if full-on NP seems to, well, full-on, maybe that could work for you?

Sorry this has been such a looooooooooooong post! Hope at least some of it has been helpful.

beautiful

 

[annaapple]

Thanks! It took a long time to write ;-)

 

[Linnis]

Julyshemustfly: My friend who has a just 8 yr old and just 7 yr old twins says that it all gets totally different for the best once they turn 7. So sorry, you got a bit longer to wait, but it really does get better!

Bananacake: your original question was, "what do you do if they are just downright rebellious?" and I'm not sure we've really tackled that for you yet. There was some stuff on defiance on pages 7 and 8 of this thread, but here's my attempt at a more practical answer. Not saying I can do this, but here is how I understand the theory...

Non-punitive (NP), gentle, grace-based discipline (whatever you want to call it) is about having a long term game plan. It tries to be proactive as much as possible, and avoid the reactive parenting that often results in the need for punishment. I guess to some extent it depends on the character and age of the child(ren) in question, but the starting point as I see it is to ask what is causing the defiance. Often the causes are:
1. low blood sugar
2. tiredness
3. needing reassurance
4. changes happening too quickly (e.g. from one activity to another)
5. anger displaced from an unrelated incident, trying to get back at you, feel more powerful etc. (which typically arises with very punitive styles of parenting - so the defiance-punishment cycle is a vicious one)

NP practices are NOT about kids running the home, doing what they want, and running rings around parents that are 'soft'. You are always in control, using your God-given authority over your children. And boundaries are vital to that. Some things just have to be done / happen; some behaviors just are inappropriate.

As a high school teacher (who has to have full authority in the classroom at all times) I can tell you that getting locked into a battle of wills with a child is a hopeless cause. They will always go further than you, because they have less to lose. As parents it is all too easy to 'get into the arena' with our kids (you WILL do this because I say so, response: NO, make me!) and in the end we can enforce our will because we are more powerful, can impose punishments etc. But what the kids have learned on a profound level is that might is right and they are no better equipped to handle their own emotions or make the right choices independently.

Putting all of that together, what do I (ideally) do about open defiance?
1. Take a step backwards from the situation
2. Mentally check their food and sleep status - if these are depleted, getting mad will achieve nothing, a box of raisins and a glass of water might.
3. Give them a hug and explain why I am asking them to do that (again)
4. If the answer is still no, ask them to explain why they object (learning to verbalize) and then talk it through with them. For example, often they just want to finish what they were doing before they are ready to move on
5. We reach a solution in which I get my way, but in a manner which is acceptable to us both.

Defiance is rare if you have taken the time to prepare them for what is happening (e.g. when this book is finished we're going to brush our teeth, ok?) and can often be diffused by not allowing it to become a power struggle.

If you don't feel comfortable with that, you might like Ross Campbell's recommendation (How to Really parent your Child) for how to get things done. If the first step doesn't do it, move to the next one and so on:

1. Politely request that the child does whatever you want them to do (or stops doing what you don't want them to do)
2. Command your child to do it / stop
3. Gentle physical manipulation (moving them away or whatever)
4. Punishment - which has to be age, child, and "crime" appropriate.

Technically that of course is not NP, but if full-on NP seems to, well, full-on, maybe that could work for you?

Sorry this has been such a looooooooooooong post! Hope at least some of it has been helpful.

Wish I could rep you for that.

 

[annaapple]

My rep was so embarrassingly low that my ego dictated I remove it from my thing!

 

[BananaCake]

Bananacake: your original question was, "what do you do if they are just downright rebellious?" and I'm not sure we've really tackled that for you yet. There was some stuff on defiance on pages 7 and 8 of this thread, but here's my attempt at a more practical answer. Not saying I can do this, but here is how I understand the theory...

Annaapple, thanks so much for your reply. It's sort of the HALT question: are you hungry, angry, lonely, tired? As well as something I've also heard said: what has happened in the last 1-3 hours, 1-3 days that may just be finally emotionally catching up to me now?

 

[BananaCake]

My rep was so embarrassingly low that my ego dictated I remove it from my thing!

I wanted to rep you as well!

 

[JulySheMustFly]

AnnaApple - Thank you for relating your friends experience. I've a longer wait than I want but there is hope. Woohoo!

 

[Leanna]

My rep was so embarrassingly low that my ego dictated I remove it from my thing!

I don't like the rep at all..... I mean come on there's even a thread in WD where everyone is bumping up each other's reputation..... thats silly

 

[RoseofLima]

I like the rep- because it's a way I can quickly communicate with people. A PM seems like such a big commitment LOL!!

 

[annaapple]

Rose: love the new avatar! Good enough to eat!

 

[Leanna]

I like to give rep sometimes tho

 

[RoseofLima]

Rose: love the new avatar! Good enough to eat!

Thanks! I finally got my film developed. Maybe Santa will bring me a digital camera this year

 

[annaapple]

OK, new question:

How do you deal with food issues? Our youngest picks the meat off his plate and leaves all the rest and is very erratic in his eating generally. He ate like a horse till he was one and then it all just sort of collapsed. I keep waiting for the phase to pass, but he's going to be two in a few weeks! Long phase!

Oldest DS has never been a great eater. He is super slow, not great about feeding himself (though perfectly capable) and fairly picky, although he does at least eat most basic vegetables, some carbs and simple meat. I feel like we are in an endless round of spag bol, chicken schnizel, meat loaf and sausages!

Our meals are not awful, and it is not like we end up angry or shouting or anything, but they're not totally relaxed either. They seem to take a lot of effort from everyone. No one is really enjoying the eating, if you know what i mean. Maybe I'm just an awful cook

Whenever I try new things (and I don't mean scary stuff) meals become quite unpleasant (they already start with, "I don't want that much" "I don't like that" "I'm not eating that" and similar rudeness and negativity).



I could go on, but instead I'll just ask:
1. What are your kids' favorite recipes?
2. How do you get them to eat a wide variety of foods?
3. How do you keep mealtimes pleasant?
4. From what ages and in what ways have you trained in table manners? (In fairness to my kids, they are actually fairly polite, and stay seated and so on, I'm just curious)
5. Any other thoughts, ideas, experiences, funny stories?

I grew up eating breakfast and supper as a family and it is really important to me that I continue that. I want our children to enjoy their mealtimes as family times, but it all seems a bit of an ordeal at the moment.

 

[Leanna]

um good question david is a picky eater too...... ill be back later

 

[DonnaB]

OK, new question:

Whenever I try new things (and I don't mean scary stuff) meals become quite unpleasant (they already start with, "I don't want that much" "I don't like that" "I'm not eating that" and similar rudeness and negativity).



I could go on, but instead I'll just ask:
1. What are your kids' favorite recipes?
2. How do you get them to eat a wide variety of foods?
3. How do you keep mealtimes pleasant?
4. From what ages and in what ways have you trained in table manners? (In fairness to my kids, they are actually fairly polite, and stay seated and so on, I'm just curious)
5. Any other thoughts, ideas, experiences, funny stories?

I grew up eating breakfast and supper as a family and it is really important to me that I continue that. I want our children to enjoy their mealtimes as family times, but it all seems a bit of an ordeal at the moment.

DD is two and loves to eat (so do we!). She likes pretty much everything, but we have learned some tricks. First, I never make the entire meal new and unfamiliar--so if I am introducing a new food, the rest of the meal is familiar. DH and I make lots of "yummy" noises and talk about how good the food is when we eat. I've noticed that sometimes it takes her a few times to try something new--so I don't give up as quickly as I used to.
We try to keep mealtimes light and fun, so no pleading or frustration (as much as I feel frustrated sometimes). We've worked on manners from day 1, but instead of trying to enforce a litany of rules, we pick one or two at a time until she's mastered them.

DD helps make dinner and she is usually much more interested in food she's made. She tears lettuce for salad, stirs the pot, puts things I've cut into bowls, etc. She just started to set the table as well.

Have you let your older DS pick out the food? Like, ask him to choose something new at the supermarket and then eat it that day. (I'm thinking produce.) Our neices and nephew ate more veggies than they ever have before at our house because they picked them out and prepared them. They also told us that they don't eat veggies at home because they don't taste the same. It turns out they like them only slightly cooked, with something to dip them into. (My SIL said they eat them all the time now, she just doesn't cook everything as much.)

I also noticed that DD doesn't like to eat things that are too hard to chew, so broccoli, carrots, etc, have to be cut up and cooked until soft but not mushy.

 

[DonnaB]

Oh, and I have a funny food story. A couple of weeks ago I made a cauliflower curry. We sat down to the table, and after a couple of bites, DD got an excited look on her face, jumped up and ran to the fridge. I just watched to see what she'd do. She came back with.....

Parmesan cheese, lol! She was so proud of herself as she sprinkled it on. AND she ate two helpings. Our little budding chef!

 

[Katydid]

Wow, OK well with food issues we are fairly strict, only because ds 5 will pick and choose what to eat and never eat any veggies, so we have a rule. You have to clean your plate to get seconds of ANYTHING. So, when we serve food, we put a bite or two of meat and a small serving of veggies, then a bite or two of any bread or potatoes that we are having. This way, he has to eat his small serving of veggies before getting any more of the stuff he likes.

Now, this has ended in fits before, but they are short lived because it is just the rule of the house, and no amount of throwing fits is going to change the rule.

 

[annaapple]

Thank you so much for these ideas. We don't have an empty plate rule, but they do have to taste everything. But I like th empty plate idea too (pensive emoticon...)

I htink letting kids help will be easier when I am a SAHM (very soon). Right now I come in from work and time's a little shoirt..

 

[Katydid]

OK, for the empty plate rule, you have to understand (since you are pensive), we didn't have this rule either, but desperation makes you try new things. The important thing to remember is that I don't pile up 5 brussel sprouts on the plate and expect him to eat it. I will take one brussel sprout and cut it into small bites, then give him some meat and potatoes and a glass of milk. For him to get more meat or potatoes (which he always wants) he has to finish his one brussel sprout. So, I KNOW that he isn't full. Now there are exceptions, for instance, I KNOW that cooked carrots make him sick (now I get sick when I eat beets, I cannot stand them), so for him, I will give him a cold baby carrot, which doesn't make him sick. So, I am not a dictator about it, if there is an alternative, then I will allow it. But, if I didn't do this, then he would never eat veggies at all.

 

[DonnaB]

Wow, OK well with food issues we are fairly strict, only because ds 5 will pick and choose what to eat and never eat any veggies, so we have a rule. You have to clean your plate to get seconds of ANYTHING. So, when we serve food, we put a bite or two of meat and a small serving of veggies, then a bite or two of any bread or potatoes that we are having. This way, he has to eat his small serving of veggies before getting any more of the stuff he likes.

Now, this has ended in fits before, but they are short lived because it is just the rule of the house, and no amount of throwing fits is going to change the rule.

I grew up with this rule too--when I was about 5 I went through a picky phase. My mom handled it exactly how you are describing and once I grew out of it, I loved my veggies