[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

[DonnaB]

Annapple,

I forgot to ask if have a farmer's market nearby. They often have free programs for kids, and the kids are more likely to eat their veggies if they've met the farmers.

(Just an idea, I used to run a small store that sold a lot of local produce. The kids loved going to the "Meet the Farmers" day )

 

[BananaCake]

OK, for the empty plate rule, you have to understand (since you are pensive), we didn't have this rule either, but desperation makes you try new things. The important thing to remember is that I don't pile up 5 brussel sprouts on the plate and expect him to eat it. I will take one brussel sprout and cut it into small bites, then give him some meat and potatoes and a glass of milk. For him to get more meat or potatoes (which he always wants) he has to finish his one brussel sprout. So, I KNOW that he isn't full. Now there are exceptions, for instance, I KNOW that cooked carrots make him sick (now I get sick when I eat beets, I cannot stand them), so for him, I will give him a cold baby carrot, which doesn't make him sick. So, I am not a dictator about it, if there is an alternative, then I will allow it. But, if I didn't do this, then he would never eat veggies at all.

Thanks for explaining that! Having a true "clean plate club" rule is difficult because then a child doesn't learn hungry and full as easily, but it sounds like the way you do it is very healthy and balanced.

 

[Leanna]

We didn't used to have this problem. My son is 2 -- he will eat veggies but not enough to fill himself, and some veggies he no longer eats. He refuses to eat meat at all. ..... the main thing he wants to eat are empty carbs. So his idea of a good dinner is a small bowl of corn and a ton of crackers. Last night I made chicken and red potatos and asparagus. He said all three items were yucky without trying them. There have been times in the past we have told him that if he eats a few bites of something he doesn't like (like meat or once biscuits and gravy... not even anything that healthy, we just wanted him to try something) and he throws it back up. I can't even eat some things right now because I still remember him throwing them up. I just don't know what to do with him..... I just don't know how well such logic will work on him anyway because he is so young and there wasnt anything he wanted so theres not more for him to look forward to getting more of. He even refuses pizza (I didn't think kids did this!!), but will eat breadsticks (empty carbs), he says "yes" to spaghetti then eats two bites and says all done and asks for crackers. All he wants is crackers and breadsticks and other empty carbs. Oh and cookies (yeah right kiddo).

 

[Katydid]

He even refuses pizza (I didn't think kids did this!!), but will eat breadsticks (empty carbs), he says "yes" to spaghetti then eats two bites and says all done and asks for crackers. All he wants is crackers and breadsticks and other empty carbs. Oh and cookies (yeah right kiddo).

Well, now that is our other house rule. We don't make special meals. None of our kids are forced to eat, just if they want seconds they have to finish all of their firsts. But, we don't force them to eat. But, we also do not make different food for the kids than we have. Part of that is our financial situation, we CANNOT AFFORD to make them something different. We also do not keep snack food in the house. We don't have crackers or cookies (though the occasional spoiling may occur). The only thing we keep for a snack is popcorn, and that is the popcorn that you actually have to cook, not the microwave stuff. Our kids KNOW that what is served is ALL that is served. If they refuse to eat, then their choice is to go hungry.

With that said, if they don't eat, then it goes to reason that they will need to go to bed earlier. They know that this is for their own health. I basically explain, "honey, you didn't eat dinner, if you don't go to sleep then you are going to get sick". Because they WILL get sick, my kids either eat or sleep because if their blood sugar gets too low then they feel sick. They know this, so they know that bedtime comes early if they don't eat anything.

 

[DonnaB]

Well, now that is our other house rule. We don't make special meals. None of our kids are forced to eat, just if they want seconds they have to finish all of their firsts. But, we don't force them to eat. But, we also do not make different food for the kids than we have. Part of that is our financial situation, we CANNOT AFFORD to make them something different. We also do not keep snack food in the house. We don't have crackers or cookies (though the occasional spoiling may occur). The only thing we keep for a snack is popcorn, and that is the popcorn that you actually have to cook, not the microwave stuff. .

This is us too, for the most part. DD eats whatever we serve, I refuse (at least right now, lol) to become a short-order cook. The one issue I worry about is that DD has a metabolic disorder and she can actually die if she does not have sugar in her bloodstream to keep her body functioning--she can't go more than 4 hours during the day and 8 hours at night without eating. I hope she never becomes a picky eater or we will spend a lot of nights in the ER with her hooked up to IV's.

We just don't buy stuff we don't want her to eat, and so all of the options in the house are good ones. (Okay, DH has a secret stash of M&M's, but DD isn't into those anyway.) There have been times when DD eats a big bowl of applesauce or yogurt for dinner. Other times the meal is modified slightly for her (she doesn't like sandwiches, but will eat meat, cheese and bread separately, or she likes to dip her tortellini into the pesto rather than mixing it together).

 

[DonnaB]

We didn't used to have this problem. My son is 2 -- he will eat veggies but not enough to fill himself, and some veggies he no longer eats. He refuses to eat meat at all. ..... the main thing he wants to eat are empty carbs. So his idea of a good dinner is a small bowl of corn and a ton of crackers. Last night I made chicken and red potatos and asparagus. He said all three items were yucky without trying them. There have been times in the past we have told him that if he eats a few bites of something he doesn't like (like meat or once biscuits and gravy... not even anything that healthy, we just wanted him to try something) and he throws it back up. I can't even eat some things right now because I still remember him throwing them up. I just don't know what to do with him..... I just don't know how well such logic will work on him anyway because he is so young and there wasnt anything he wanted so theres not more for him to look forward to getting more of. He even refuses pizza (I didn't think kids did this!!), but will eat breadsticks (empty carbs), he says "yes" to spaghetti then eats two bites and says all done and asks for crackers. All he wants is crackers and breadsticks and other empty carbs. Oh and cookies (yeah right kiddo).

DD is also two and I think that for her, if she feels like she has some control of the situation, she is more likely to eat. You're a smart mama, so you might already have tried this, but DD responds well to choices. Peaches or pears? while holding a can of each--that sort of thing. Oh, and she loves, loves, LOVES snack sizes of things (sometimes I buy big sizes and break it into the small storage cups to save $$--other times I buy the cups.). I'd try to avoid the crackers, or maybe put an allotted amount in a bowl in the morning (after he asks for them), but tell him that's all for the day. He'll probably freak out the first day, but he will get the idea eventually! Will he eat whole grain pasta or bread?

 

[Leanna]

Well crackers and the like are for snacks for playdates, snacks are important for that reason.

I do not short order cook which is why he asks for crackers.

Just if his choices are meat, potatos or asparagus and he doesn't want them, I don't know what to do, I don't know how much of a battle I really feel like making out of dinner.....

Let me tell you of the story of the time I decided to.... okay well just read. As I recall dinner consisted of a carrots and potatos and roast. I told him he needed to eat this many bites of carrots and potatos before he could have leftover whatever it was we had. He refused. I said fine, we will reheat it when you are ready. He never changed his mind, went to bed hungry, woke up the next morning and the first thing he ate he puked all over the kitchen floor. I thought that meant he was sick but no other signs of sickness followed.

 

[Leanna]

DD is also two and I think that for her, if she feels like she has some control of the situation, she is more likely to eat. You're a smart mama, so you might already have tried this, but DD responds well to choices. Peaches or pears? while holding a can of each--that sort of thing. Oh, and she loves, loves, LOVES snack sizes of things (sometimes I buy big sizes and break it into the small storage cups to save $$--other times I buy the cups.). I'd try to avoid the crackers, or maybe put an allotted amount in a bowl in the morning (after he asks for them), but tell him that's all for the day. He'll probably freak out the first day, but he will get the idea eventually! Will he eat whole grain pasta or bread?

Yeah I've done this ... the problem is he doesn't want any of the choices and will just go hungry if I only give choices that I like....

I guess I'm going to have to think this out and draw a line and hope there isn't too much puking. He has some kind of sensitive tummy...

 

[Katydid]

He never changed his mind, went to bed hungry, woke up the next morning and the first thing he ate he puked all over the kitchen floor. I thought that meant he was sick but no other signs of sickness followed.

You did the right thing. The only thing you should try differently, is the next morning, you should start him off with a piece of dry toast. This is actually one of the reasons we have the rule that if you don't eat, you sleep. Because when they sleep they don't get as sick. But, yeah, you did right. It was his choice to not eat the night before and it is a natural consequence to end up with a sore belly.

 

[DonnaB]

Yeah I've done this ... the problem is he doesn't want any of the choices and will just go hungry if I only give choices that I like....

I guess I'm going to have to think this out and draw a line and hope there isn't too much puking. He has some kind of sensitive tummy...

Wow, he's really a stubborn one, huh? Have you asked your ped if he maybe has allergies--or heartburn/reflux? The only other idea I have is that maybe he is actually self-limiting his foods to those that sit well with him. (The foods you described are all pretty bland-sounding.) Can you get him to drink a protein shake or something like ensure? Because DD has to eat, when she has a cold and doesn't want to we give her Slim-fast shakes to keep her going. Not great, but desperate times call for desperate measures.

This has got to be so frustrating!

 

[Leanna]

Wow, he's really a stubborn one, huh?

Definitely, lol. He goes to bed and I tell dh stories of what Mr. Independent did today. He likes to think he is in charge, but I am much more stubborn than him so we will get through this.

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Tori did the puking thing too except she would do it at the table as she pretended to be willing to put the spoon of whatever the food we requested into her mouth. It started when she was about 2-1/2 and she still does it on occasion. I know it isn't a really tummy problem because she will do it with foods she really does like and she has to sit and work herself to it.

We have a try a spoonful or bite of everything rule for meals. I hold to it because I only introduce new foods if the kids agree that they want to try it that week. I have one exception through and that is if they do not want meat they do not have to eat it. There are usually two forms of protein built into our meals for that reason.

The farmers market thing actually worked for us. I took Tori with me and after she saw all the food and talked to the woman there about all her questions she selected brussel sprouts as her "treat".

 

[BananaCake]

We didn't used to have this problem. My son is 2 -- he will eat veggies but not enough to fill himself, and some veggies he no longer eats. He refuses to eat meat at all. ..... the main thing he wants to eat are empty carbs. So his idea of a good dinner is a small bowl of corn and a ton of crackers. Last night I made chicken and red potatos and asparagus. He said all three items were yucky without trying them. There have been times in the past we have told him that if he eats a few bites of something he doesn't like (like meat or once biscuits and gravy... not even anything that healthy, we just wanted him to try something) and he throws it back up. I can't even eat some things right now because I still remember him throwing them up. I just don't know what to do with him..... I just don't know how well such logic will work on him anyway because he is so young and there wasnt anything he wanted so theres not more for him to look forward to getting more of. He even refuses pizza (I didn't think kids did this!!), but will eat breadsticks (empty carbs), he says "yes" to spaghetti then eats two bites and says all done and asks for crackers. All he wants is crackers and breadsticks and other empty carbs. Oh and cookies (yeah right kiddo).

Wow! I had similar issues when I was a kid. It ended up with me that I had really big tonsils and would choke on lots of foods. But if any of my food touched on my plate, I would literally throw up. This started as an infant. My mom tried giving me jarred baby food once (she always made her own) because we were at a friend's house, and I threw it up.

You may need to find creative ways to get vitamins and protein in him, like some of the soy-enhanced snacks and such.

 

[Leanna]

Yeah I'm still working out what to do with this one.... we're out of crackers.... we'll see what happens

I told him we're out, he says "lets get some more at the store!"

 

[DonnaB]

This question is partly in response to the spanking threads--mayboe some of those parents are lurking here to get other ideas--and partly because I can always learn more What are the guidance (I'm avoiding dicipline because it is kind of a loaded word) techniques in your household? What works for you?

We basically talk, talk, talk! If DD does something we don't want her to do, any consequence fits the situation. (i.e., if she pours her juice on the table on purpose, the "big girl" cup is put away and she gets a sippy--she loves to drink from real glasses, but sometimes she can't help herself, lol).

Yesterday we were working in the front flower bed. DD had her wagon and she put water in it from her water table. Then she started to float dandelions in the water. Well, of course, it was only a short step from that to wanting to pick the hyancinths and float them in the water too. I let her pick one, told her only one--but a few minutes later she picked another. I got down to her level, told her no in a calm voice and she bent down, cupping her hand like she was going to pick again. I said no again and moved her hand. SHe yelled for a second, I reiterated, and we repeated the whole scenario. That was it, she moved on to something else!

Later, when we were sitting on the porch, she pointed to the flowers and said "no!" She also showed DH this morning and said "no". This is the way we handle most situations and it seems to work. The times it doesn't work are usually the times I get exasperated too soon and yell. I don't respond to her yelling negatively, I just keep on the same track of repeating the request. I usually add "pick something else to do" at the end to remind her that she has other choices. I don't interpret her yelling as anything but an expression of frustration (happens once every day or two for a couple of seconds). If I can't always keep my voice quiet when I'm frustrated, how will my two year old?

 

[Katydid]

Our discipline is also guided by age. For instance, if my 1 yr. old goes for the electrical outlet, it is a stern "No" and move him away from the object and tell him he can choose from these objects.

If my 3 yr. old goes for the outlet, well, this never happens cause she learned when she was a year old, but IF she ever did. Then, I would touch her arm, look in her eyes and tell her "No ma'am. You are NOT allowed to touch that now go find something else to play with". This is also the age we teach them about the "dragon" in the wall. DH is an electrician and they talk about the "blue dragon" getting you. Funny story about this one. When we were spanking, my stepson had been told about the dragon, and had been spanked for touching the outlets numerous times. Well, my mom was watching him one evening and he came out of his room screaming, "THE DRAGON BIT ME!!" Well, mom, not knowing what he was talking about, looked at his hand and saw a burn. He had put a nail into the outlet and it shot out and he got shocked. With what we do now, we have had 2 children (the baby is too young to tell if he will or not) who have never gotten into shocked.

Ok, well, if my 5 yr. old went to mess with the outlet, I would probably teach him the proper way to plug and unplug things and teach him about outlet safety. He is old enough to understand it now.

If my 10 year old stepson messed with the outlet, I would ask him if he really thought that was a good idea. If he continued, well a shock from an outlet will not likely kill a 10 yr. old boy, so I would let him experience the natural consequences of that action.



So, basically, what I am saying, is give logical consequences, or alternate options and protect them from natural consequences until they reach an age where they can comprehend the consequence of the action they are choosing.


Here, this is another one...

1 yr. old won't stop screaming.

Hold, comfort and talk to him until he calms down.

3 yr. old won't stop screaming.

Talk calmly as I escort her to her room and tell her that her behavior is unacceptable and she needs to take her behavior into her own room until she calms down and can speak to me.

5 yr. old won't stop screaming.

Look at him and firmly tell him I will NOT listen to this. He knows what to do, he can take it to his own space and come speak to me when he calms down.

10 yr. old won't stop screaming.

OK well, IF this every happened, then he would be told to stop, and if he couldn't, he would be taken outside and left alone until he got control of himself.

 

[Leanna]

Ugh, spanking threads bug me, especially when it is a new user who has 5 posts and 4 of them are about spanking..... a little suspicious IMO

I was complimented today at the store on David's good behavior.

 

[RoseofLima]

In regards to food LEanna- I do not make my kids eat food that makes them gag. I remember the horror of having to eat mashed potatoes as a kid and they would cause an involuntary gag reflex. I couldn't help it. It was so horrific.

Twos and threes are notoriously picky eaters. I wouldn't worry much about it-- but I also wouldn't let him have crackers Just don't buy them and the problem is solved. Can you experiment with some of the V8 juices or make smooties or hide veggies in muffins?

What we try to do with food is have one or two kids friendly meals each week-- grilled cheese and veggies; whole wheat pancakes and fruit ; eggs, grits, toast and fruit; Annies mac n' Cheese w/ veggies--the rest are just regular dinners.

For the carb lover- don't forget about the wonderful potato! I have one daughter who lived on potatoes for a month or two while she was being really finicky.

I refuse to make separate meals for everyone. My job is to provide healthy food, their job is to eat it. If thet are eating well snacks become no big deal. Snacks become an issue for us if they aren't eating well and I cut them out.

Does David eat cheese and drink milk? WIll he eat peanut or other nut butters? Will he eat almonds or peanuts or soy nuts? What about seeds? Will he eat snack size cottage cheese?

My oldest is really picky- but now that he is older he can get down a serving of broccoli, or grean beans, raw carrots, mashed potatoes and limited amounts of meat. He used to not be able to eat a serving of mixed veggies without running for the trash can to puke-- but we backed off, allowed him to politely spit in his napkin (without complaining about the food) and waiteed a few years to begin to insist again on him trying them. We have taken the long term approach- we statred with just 1 or 2 bites and have slowly increased his serving size. As a general rule in our house everyone serves themselves (even our 2 year old) and is required to eat what they put on their plate. Everyone has to have a little of everything on their plate- but they get to control how much.

 

[Leanna]

Unfortunately I can't comment on the "when do you start disciplining" thread, but I read the opening post and I just want to comment that its a common misconception that discipline = spanking or punishment of that sort. Discipline is guiding, teaching and leading your children. You do that from birth.

 

[annaapple]

I second that! Wholeheartedly.

I think those who spank like to call it 'disciplining' because it makes it sound positive. Whereas in fact spanking and punishment are a negative form of behaviour modification. Doesn't mean it can't be effective in the short term, but that doesn't make it right, or in any way a suitable way to deal with behavior problems. IMHO. But I guess that's why i love this thread! (Thanks again Rose)