[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

Leanna said:

Hey now don't go get our nice happy thread shut down.... you could make another thread to ask this question.

Click to expand...

No- I'm not touching that one with a 10 foot pole

I just needed to lament... I'm sorry. But it still breaks my heart... can't I be sad in this thread too??

Leanna said:

When he was just past two every day was a challenge, and at the end of the days it wasn't uncommon for me to tuck him into bed and go into the living room and bawl to my husband that I was a terrible mother and had no idea what I was doing because I was putting in effort and seeing little fruit... but then a couple months later every day is beautiful and he's such a sweet kid

Click to expand...

Natalie just celebrated her 2nd birthday and the above paragraph describes my world perfectly. :o I'm glad to hear that there was light at the end of the tunnel for you! It does give me encouragement during this tough time.

Sign Of The Fish Burger said:

No- I'm not touching that one with a 10 foot pole

I just needed to lament... I'm sorry. But it still breaks my heart... can't I be sad in this thread too??

Click to expand...

So in my world- we had a successful emergency meeting about pick up time- a source of constant anguish in our household. My husband and I sat down with the kids- tried to express how we thought they felt, allowed them to clarify their feelings, relate our feelings back to them-- and then we brainstormed together writing down all of the ideas from anyone- including inventing an automatic pick-up machine (which incidentally I am all for ). Then together we crossed out the ideas that wouldn't work--AND came up with a plan to put into action!!

Yesterday, before bed, at clean up time- everyone did what we had decided on in the plan- and it worked great!! The kids also went to bed better than they have in weeks!! (Usually after mommy blowing her top about cleaning up).

I am so psyched!! Woo hoo!

OK, I've clarified in my head where I still struggle with this type of parenting: open defiance / disobedience. I mean, what are the natural consequences of not brushing your teeth? Rotten teeth. Like my 3 year old cares ;-)

So in those siuations we tend to use unrelated consequences, which I know is not the idea. Our worst one is connecting food with his daily treat of watching 5-10 mins of tv after the bath. (Context: he was really difficult eater and since we didn't want to make a huge fuss - everyone says that's bad - we just left it up to him to chose his consequences: a decent stab at the food + tv, or refusing to eat and having no tv).

Another exmaple would be refusing to go to bed - natural consequence, tired and cranky the next day, but again, why should he care? So I end up just imposing my will, which is not supposed ot be the idea, right?

I know sometimes it is my fault, because for example I have not prepared him enough for the next sequence of events - but I still have to pick up those pieces somehow. I'm not being very clear, but if anyone gets what I'm trying to say I would appreciate your feedback. We're still polishing the system!

Leanna said:

Hey now don't go get our nice happy thread shut down.... you could make another thread to ask this question.

Click to expand...

There are already several!

Sign Of The Fish Burger said:

No- I'm not touching that one with a 10 foot pole I just needed to lament... I'm sorry. But it still breaks my heart... can't I be sad in this thread too??

Click to expand...

It's OK to be sad, but maybe here's not the place. When I saw your original comment, I thought of 3 things:
1. This thread isn't for debate; it's about education and shared experiences, so in some ways, it's maybe a little unfair to ask that question because those who disagree with you aren't allowed to answer
2. A comment like that could push away those who honestly struggle deeply with this issue and are currently sitting on the fence (like me). This is an issue we grapple with and before making a decision one way or another, we want to hear and see what we can learn from both sides. But maybe when they read something like that, they feel ostracized and run away.
3. Like Leanna said, we don't want the thread to get shut down!

For the record, I'm sticking around But I just thought I'd share that perspective.

annaapple said:

OK, I've clarified in my head where I still struggle with this type of parenting: open defiance / disobedience. I mean, what are the natural consequences of not brushing your teeth? Rotten teeth. Like my 3 year old cares ;-)

Click to expand...

There are certain issues that are non-negotiable, such as brushing teeth. My DD does not like that we still have to brush her teeth for her after she's had her turn with the toothbrush. In that situation I give her a choice: "Do you want Mommy to brush your teeth in the bathroom (if she's willing to be cooperative) or on your bed?" If she does not answer or refuses, I say, "I guess you want Mommy to brush your teeth on your bed," and carry her into her bedroom, lay her down, and brush her teeth. Sometimes she'll struggle against it a bit, but as long as I'm consistent she *knows* she's not getting up from the bed until we've finished brushing her teeth. I don't think it is against our parenting philosophy to do this in certain situations. I think it also helps to tell her (although she may not understand it yet, eventually she will) why I feel the issue is important enough that I have to impose my will on her: "Brushing your teeth is important to keep them clean and healthy."

One book I read talks about how when natural consequences won't work, you can use logical consequences. This is especially helpful in situations of danger...the example the book gives is that although the natural consequence of running into the street would be getting hit by a car (eek!), you can use a logical consequence of having to go inside or playing inside the fenced yard.

What do you do when you're in a hurry, and only have time for obedience? I'm talking about emergency-type situations, like hubby calling me with a stalled car, or needing medication. What do you do when the child chooses to defy you at times like those?

Rachel

Robinsegg said:

What do you do when you're in a hurry, and only have time for obedience? I'm talking about emergency-type situations, like hubby calling me with a stalled car, or needing medication. What do you do when the child chooses to defy you at times like those?

Rachel

Click to expand...

Very good question! I'm looking forward to the answers.

katelyn said:

There are certain issues that are non-negotiable, such as brushing teeth. My DD does not like that we still have to brush her teeth for her after she's had her turn with the toothbrush. In that situation I give her a choice: "Do you want Mommy to brush your teeth in the bathroom (if she's willing to be cooperative) or on your bed?" If she does not answer or refuses, I say, "I guess you want Mommy to brush your teeth on your bed," and carry her into her bedroom, lay her down, and brush her teeth.

Click to expand...

Yeah what she said... some things you just have to "make it happen." If David doesn't want his teeth brushed, too bad, thats not an option, so what kind of toothpaste does he want to use.... what does he want to do afterwards (some kids, some ages, talking fast and about what you are doing after you're done with un-favorite activity helps) ..... ugh I just realized I'm late for something, later

Robinsegg said:

What do you do when you're in a hurry, and only have time for obedience? I'm talking about emergency-type situations, like hubby calling me with a stalled car, or needing medication. What do you do when the child chooses to defy you at times like those?

Rachel

Click to expand...

LOL! I think I can answer this one!! You know- having just had to call the ambulance this week and all

Kids usually can tell the difference- and I have found 99.9% of the time live up to my expectations when there is a real emergency. When Bernadette's finger came off- it was because we have the family we have that everything went as smoothly as it did. The kids could tell- there was no foolin'. Everyone did exactly as they were told. I even took a minute to explain-- "Mommy is very worried about Bernadette- and I need to give her all of my attention. If I sound mad- I am not, I am just scared." The EMTs told my husband that they were very impressed with how me and the kids had handled the situation.

So then I met my husband and Bernadette at the ER. (The other kids stayed home with a distant relative they only met once several years ago for a couple minutes-- and were very, very well behaved for her.) Obviously Bernadette didn't want the nurses, etc. messing with her--but it was essential. What my husband and I could offer was empathy. He held her, and I got her to look in my eyes and whisper to her "I know it hurts, honey. I know you want them to be done. They'll be done soon. The want to make your finger all better. I know it hurts." I could sing songs to soothe her and tell her a story while we waited. The nurses also commented on on much we were helping them do their job.

Then at home she needed medicine which she HATED and would spit out-- so again, through her tears I could empathise with her- but I still had to hold her nose and put my finger on her tongue to force her to swallow the medicine. I would explain to her what I was doing- and that I understood how icky it tasted and that she probably wanted mommy to just be done.

I don't know if that helps at all?? I have God given authority. I am the one in charge. However that doesn't mean I can't be caring, sensitive to the difficulties of others, and empathisizing when they are required to do something hard or unpleasant.

I think I understand this better now thanks!
We have special words for when things are important (I say "front and center" instead of "come here" when I need them to come immediately). I also use my tone of voice to indicate things like this.
When something unpleasant has to happen, I try to explain exactly how it will go, let them know I understand how unpleasant it is, and try to help them through it.
It's only on rare occasions that I have need to actually "punish" them. Most of the time, we try to help them understand the reasons behind things.

Does this sound like I'm moving in your direction?

Rachel

Robinsegg said:

I think I understand this better now thanks!
We have special words for when things are important (I say "front and center" instead of "come here" when I need them to come immediately). I also use my tone of voice to indicate things like this.
When something unpleasant has to happen, I try to explain exactly how it will go, let them know I understand how unpleasant it is, and try to help them through it.
It's only on rare occasions that I have need to actually "punish" them. Most of the time, we try to help them understand the reasons behind things.

Does this sound like I'm moving in your direction?

Rachel

Click to expand...

Yes! It is important to remember that kids are allowed to think things are unpleasant or cruddy or whatever... it is up to us as parents to decide if an unpleasant task is an essential task or not. As good parents we might try to mitigate the unpleasantness as much as we can and give them the skills and tools to endure what struggles we cannot take away.

One more question: How do you differentiate between expressing anger/disappointment/sadness and being disrespectful of others. For instance, hubby and I believe that fit-throwing is disrespectful to everyone in the room. We tell them it's okay to tell us they're unhappy about something, but pouting/fit throwing aren't good ways of expressing them.

How do you decide what's appropriate?

Rachel

How do you differentiate between expressing anger/disappointment/sadness and being disrespectful of others.

Click to expand...

Remember that you are allowed to have your boundaries. They may be different in every household. In our household, any screaming or loud voices in anger is a no-no. So for us, we have "scream zones", outside, bedroom, back room, but NEVER allowed in the living room. That is OUR boundary. Many GBD parents think that I am too strict in this, while others understand. You do NOT have to give up YOUR comfort to allow room for big feelings. But the child doesn't have to avoid big feelings just for your comfort. So, while teaching proper ways to handle big feelings, allow the child an appropriate place in which to express them at their level.





As for medication. Well, I am one that if I need to take a liquid med, I pinch my nose, stand there for a few minutes, etc. Until I get up the nerve to take it, then I have a glass of soda ready to sip. So we give the children the option of having a sip of soda after, and we give them ample time to prepare themselves, ex. "OK, in a couple minutes you will need to take the med." "OK, mommy is getting your medicine ready, do you want a sip of coke, or sprite". Since this is the ONLY time they get soda, it helps.

Now for dd, when she was an infant, she had to have breathing treatments and they WANTED her to cry. It tore my heart out, but they said with infants, when they cry, they breath deeper. But afterwards, they gave her a bottle of tea (german doctors). I HAD to hold that thing over her face for 15 minutes. It was NECESSARY. So, sometimes, you just gotta do what you gotta do.

Robinsegg said:

For instance, hubby and I believe that fit-throwing is disrespectful to everyone in the room.

Click to expand...

I am confused. What are you really asking? Just because something isn't "appropriate" ..... its part of growing up, doing inappropriate things.... that's why they are children, and why adults are (usually haha) better behaved... it takes years to learn what is appropriate

Let me give you a portion, located here under "feelings" http://aolff.com/?page_id=30&page=6

"This means that I do not need to fear what will happen if I can�t get my children to stop being angry or having angry responses, but I do need to teach them how to handle their anger and what appropriate responses are. I�ve been known to tell a toddler or two my own version of Paul�s Ephesians caution, �You may be angry, you may not hit me.�

Second, emotions may be an indicator of a bigger issue. The emotions themselves are not sin, but they may signal that there is a bigger issue going on and if not addressed in children it may become a sin issue in an adult. If someone is always jealous and throwing fits because they are frustrated and disappointed that they aren�t getting what they want all the time there may be an issue with being content, or being grateful for what you do have. If someone is angry as a rule, or is known for having a character quality of an angry person, or is often easily offended, then the heart issue needs to be addressed. Because I believe that people who feel good act good I start with seeking to discover what hurt is in their heart that is causing them to take offense. Punishing for, or restricting, the expression of these emotions will not cause the emotions to cease. This is a very faulty and, in my opinion dangerous, teaching that is popular in many circles. A child who doesn�t show you his anger hasn�t necessarily ceased being angry. Knowing the proper response to please a parent or avoid a punishment is not what I want to teach my children. I would rather see the indicator of these deeper issues and be able to continue addressing them until time, maturity, prayer and discipline (true teaching) have taken effect and the issue is resolved, than to demand my child hide the issue and convince myself that means it�s gone. The lack of an angry response doesn�t mean the anger is gone, but when the anger is gone the response will go as well.

Third, emotions are not at odds with the Fruit of the Spirit, but as James points out, anger will not promote the righteousness of God in your life. As the Fruit of the Spirit are growing in my life I will not respond out of my emotions. Just as a fool gives vent to everything he thinks while a wise man waits and holds his tongue, so a mature Christian will be able to be angry but respond with self control, love, peace, patience . . . Fruit of the Spirit. Anger and the Fruit of the Spirit can coexist because anger is not a sin. We must be taught how to not be ruled by our emotions, how to not be like the fool who gives vent to everything on our minds, how to be angry and sin not."

Does that help?

This is a great thread and can I just say RoseofLima- you are one of my favourite people on the planet. God really blessed you with wisdom sister- not to mention humility and good humour. Thanks for sharing it with us!

It's so funny that I came across this thread tonight because just earlier today I said to my husband "If I EVER say to Meaghan "because I said so", you have permission to smack me upside the head."

My parents also did the best they could but I was a VERY frustrated strong willed child who was forced to bottle her emotions. I never felt like I was heard and I never want my Meaghan to feel that way.

Unfortunately, even now I see so much of my mother in me. Some days I am flat on my face in prayer begging God to help me be more patient. It is just insane (and frightening) the feelings that come up in me sometimes- and insane that I get angry at a BABY!!!!

I want so much to do better. This thread is a great help.

By the way, can anyone recommend a good book or two about this grace based parenting?

Ross Campbell's How to Really Parent your Child has been really helpful for us. He's a Christian family counselor as well as a psychiatrist with years of experience so really does know what he's talking about.

We've just had a disobedience type issue here: DS no. 1 has been cranky all morning because he was tired. I knew he had to take a nap for his own good and the happy functioning of the family. But obviously being cranky he didn't want to do that. I got him some warm milk, read him a story, cuddled up with him but nothing doing. So then I warned him - he didn't stop moving around / trying to grab things from the bedside table I was going to get mad and to go. He kept on going, so I got mad and went. I think he's asleep now, but I would so much rather not have had to get mad.

DS no. 2 fell asleep in the car on the way back from church; he hasn't resettled in his cot. By 5pm I think he will be really struggling.

I can trace it all right back to yesterday - they slept longer in the pm (heaven only know why), so we went swimming later, then they got to bed later, so now they're more tired today. But swimming had been promised and was really looked forward to, and as we try to keep our promises (because we want them to do the same), we didn't feel we could cancel.

And that, for me, sums up the muddle that is parenting. You try to do the right things, but it just doesn't always work out. We just haven't reached that well-oiled machine stage yet, I guess. And sometimes I don't know if we ever will.