[Open] Support thread for non-punitive households (Please NO DEBATE)

[~Nikki~]

I don't have older children but I think it helps to think of parenting as a journey where you know your own children and when you get to these points you know what to do then. I can't say for sure what I would do, but I like to think that any child would know better than to want to leave their stuff on the walkway in the woods. Well unless they really do think mommy is going to pick it up, but I think kids know their own parents, kwim? I can't even imagine my 2 1/2 year old doing that though, and he's a big handful sometimes. There are just some things he wouldn't do for his own benefit, such as leave one of his toys in the post office because he carried it there.... maybe it would help if you read Crystal Lutton's book? Sometimes its just a change in how you look at it. I'm just certain that "if you don't obey me I will hit you" is just not an answer for my family, and so somehow we will find another way.

Ahhh I recall an instance when I refused my dad. He wanted me to test the brakes on my bike before we went on a long bike ride, at the edge of our neighborhood. I refused. We went home. I cried a lot because I was so disappointed, but I knew it was my responsibility. But instead of him making it adversarial, he said something along the lines of "I'm disappointed, but I need to know you'd be safe on this ride and so we're not going to be able to go today." Then he just turned and started to ride home. Sometimes I was too stubborn, I still remember that and knew I was wrong but I still didn't get to go on a bike ride that day. Well, I didn't make that mistake again!

Thanks Leanna.

I really want Benjamin to learn that his choices have consequences and dh and I have talked a lot about that, so it was fantastic to read your example. Thanks again.

 

[annaapple]

This is a great thread - can it get stickied or something so we can all keep posting our experiences, problems, questions?

 

[JulySheMustFly]

We're fairly new to this concept of parenting but it is much more natural for us. But I do have a question about time outs. What about them is seen as punitive? For my 22mo old when he has a tantrum he is allowed to have it but is sat on a specific place to have his tantrum and he comes back when he's gotten all his "No" out and he hugs and says sorry.

I have more to say and questions to ask but breakfast and diapers beckon.

 

[kikiboy]

This is a great thread. I read everything and i want to learn more. We have a 20 months old boy. We are not sure how to deal with his screaming and tantrums.
He is not speaking, we are speaking 2 languages with him. When he is upset because I say no to something or I didn;t give him something he will start screming his lungs out and throwing on the floor and banging his head on the floor. Sometimes he will do this at the table, just because he couldn't play with the serving bowl. So in this case he will start screming throw his food and his plate on the floor and everything he can reach. So we decided to take him and put it in his room in his crib but the screming in going on for another 5 -10 minutes. I really don't know what to do!!!
We have the same screming for changing diapers, for leaving the playground, or the store. Last night I told him don't throw again his truck (it's a metal truck) becasue he can damage our floor. He did it once I don't know what upset him in the first place. So he did it again so I took it away as I told him. Okay, this morning the same story repeated.
What is the solution?

How I talk with him?

 

[Leanna]

We're fairly new to this concept of parenting but it is much more natural for us. But I do have a question about time outs. What about them is seen as punitive? For my 22mo old when he has a tantrum he is allowed to have it but is sat on a specific place to have his tantrum and he comes back when he's gotten all his "No" out and he hugs and says sorry.

I have more to say and questions to ask but breakfast and diapers beckon.

This is my understanding about it..... its because classic "time out" is adversarial. Like, "you really screwed up so go stand in the corner". You versus me. I want to make you really uncomfortable, so STAND in the corner and if you dare to turn around you're in trouble. You'll notice instead there is a very similar idea encouraged but renamed, a time out, but instead of "you screwed up, be punished!" its "your emotions are out of control, so please go take it easy on the couch and I'll come talk to you about this in a minute" ....instead of "weather your emotions alone" its "I will help talk you through a better way to deal with this".... its a fine line of difference just in the attitude about what you are doing. Does that make sense? The idea being little ones don't know how to deal with their emotions and isolating them to figure it out on their own is.... well not cool, I guess. I know sometimes when I have had David in his room with a tantrum, and walked away (because mommy needed a time out you know?) he just stays upset for longer, and it doesn't seem to accomplish the same thing as when I have him i nhis room with a tantrum and I sit down and say "You're mad because I didn't let you play outside. But outside time is done now...." and he will calm down and instead of just wildly crying he might say "Mad.... outside..." *sniff sniff* and we understand each other. More adversarial people view this as not strict enough, but I didn't give him his way (he's still inside, its still bedtime or whatever)... I just helped him work through his emotions in a way other than leaving him to weep through them alone.

kikiboy, such a strategy would probably work for you And now is a good time to read Your Two Year Old by Ames and Ilg

 

[wanderingone]

. So far one major idea that has helped is when Natalie doesn't want a diaper change, we ask her, "Do you want to walk or be carried to go get your diaper changed?" She will usually grab my hand and walk down the hall with me. I don't really know why that works but it does. Of course, the few times that she doesn't comply I do pick her up and go change her diaper anyway.

This is a huge part of parenting. You give kids choices but choices that are acceptable for what needs to get done. She still has to get her diaper changed but she has two simple choices in how that gets done. You've shown her that when she makes a choices you respect them, you've shown her she can have some control over how something gets done, and you've shown her that when she refuses to make a choice it gets made for her.
It sounds kind of silly.. (maybe) when it's about changing a diaper..but the big picture a few years down the road is that she is learning that she can be "good" while still having some control over how to get to "good"

(I really hope that makes sense)

 

[futuredoc]

I don't know if I'm allowed to add, since I don't have kids, but I wanted to say that I was raised this way. It made my teenage years so much easier. There was very little to rebel against, because my parents had set up a system where they didn't say you can't do *whatever* because I said so. They simply said if you do *whatever* then this will happen (like leaving your things in the woods as mentioned above). As a teenager other people would do stupid things, simply because their parents had said not to and I was always able to say I don't want to do that because I don't like the consequence (bad grade, getting picked up by the police etc)....not I might get in trouble. It also made me a better longterm planner than many of my peers.

 

[RoseofLima]

We're fairly new to this concept of parenting but it is much more natural for us. But I do have a question about time outs. What about them is seen as punitive? For my 22mo old when he has a tantrum he is allowed to have it but is sat on a specific place to have his tantrum and he comes back when he's gotten all his "No" out and he hugs and says sorry.

I have more to say and questions to ask but breakfast and diapers beckon.

I started to type you an answer-when we had to call the ambulance...

The thing with time outs is how they are viewed by the child. Any type of parent imposed isolation is likely to be seen as punitive by the child.

That doesn't mean kids don't need to take a break from what's going on- but that can happen in a positive way. You can go sit with them on the couch while they wind down. You can ask if they want you to sit with them or if they want a few moments by themselves. You can tell them that their behaviour is not okay...for example " You seem very angry. Hitting when you are angery is not okay. Let's go take a break together on the couch." If you need to physically restrain them- do so with much love in a non threatening way.

Basically a time out says to a child "If you don't behave how I want you to, I am going to send you away from me until you are acceptable." When I think about how I would feel if , say, my husband said that to me...I would be seriously hurt.

The thing is that bad behaviour happens when there are huge unresolved emotions. If we, as parents, can go deeper than just responding to the sympotom- we can effect a cure.

I dunno if that helps at all.

Again--there is no dogma-- much of everything depends on how your child views your discipline techniques. And no one knows your child better than you!! But if we think about how we would feel if a grown up we love and trust treated us this way- we have a starting point to empathize with what our children are experiencing when we do this.

 

[Leanna]

The ambulance!?!?

 

[RoseofLima]

This is a great thread. I read everything and i want to learn more. We have a 20 months old boy. We are not sure how to deal with his screaming and tantrums.
He is not speaking, we are speaking 2 languages with him. When he is upset because I say no to something or I didn;t give him something he will start screming his lungs out and throwing on the floor and banging his head on the floor. Sometimes he will do this at the table, just because he couldn't play with the serving bowl. So in this case he will start screming throw his food and his plate on the floor and everything he can reach. So we decided to take him and put it in his room in his crib but the screming in going on for another 5 -10 minutes. I really don't know what to do!!!
We have the same screming for changing diapers, for leaving the playground, or the store. Last night I told him don't throw again his truck (it's a metal truck) becasue he can damage our floor. He did it once I don't know what upset him in the first place. So he did it again so I took it away as I told him. Okay, this morning the same story repeated.
What is the solution?

How I talk with him?

Give him choices! Choices, choices, choices! Do you want to play with the fire truck without throwing it or do you want mommy to park it on top of the fridge for a week? Do you want potatoes on your plate first or carrots?

If he throws food- help him to clean it up and don't give him anymore food for that meal. You will have to diffuse the tantrum first-- through reflective and active listening. Tell him what behaviour is not okay and what you DO expect.

Although he isn't talking yet- I am assuming he does communicate and understand. If he is having a tantrum it's safe to start with "Boy, you are really mad (or angry or frustrated, etc.) It's okay to feel that way. I feel angry sometimes. It's not okay to throw food when you're angry. Do you want to draw your angries with me? Do you want to do an angry dance? Do you want me to sing the angry song (and make up something silly)."

Once you talk and diffuse the tantrum- help him to clean up the food. The natural consequence of throwing your dinner to the floor is cleaning it up and not having food to eat. However- fight the temptation to make the consequence "hurt". Leave out any commentary--just stay focused on offering help in the task.

 

[RoseofLima]

The ambulance!?!?

There's a thread in WD- Bernadette severed the tip of her finger in the door. I got to go to the grocery store AND the hospital in one day

 

[~Nikki~]

Thank ladies.

I was raised in a home where I had to do as I was told "because I said so!"

Not dissing my parents because I love them. But they just didn't know any better, and did the best they could with what they knew how to do.

Anyway, I grew up a very rebellious teenager because I was never equipped to make wise decisions. I wasn't allowed to make choices. So I rebelled when I got to that age.

Dh and I want our children to be equipped to be able to see consequences of decisions and therefore be able to make wise choices, and your examples (Leanna and Rose of Lima) have really been helpful. Hubby and I have been researching and listening to a lot of material on this, but it really helps to see your examples too.

Thank you!!!

 

[~Nikki~]

I soooo want for my kids to turn out completely different from how I did, and I want them to truly feel that I *hear* them and understand them, and that they're allowed to have feelings (which they'll in time learn to express appropriately), and not get squashed for having feelings.

Oh well, must stop lamenting now, and learn to do things properly.

 

[RoseofLima]

Thank ladies.

I was raised in a home where I had to do as I was told "because I said so!"

Not dissing my parents because I love them. But they just didn't know any better, and did the best they could with what they knew how to do.

Anyway, I grew up a very rebellious teenager because I was never equipped to make wise decisions. I wasn't allowed to make choices. So I rebelled when I got to that age.

Dh and I want our children to be equipped to be able to see consequences of decisions and therefore be able to make wise choices, and your examples (Leanna and Rose of Lima) have really been helpful. Hubby and I have been researching and listening to a lot of material on this, but it really helps to see your examples too.

Thank you!!!

I can so totally relate to your post

 

[JulySheMustFly]

Leanna & Rose of Lima - thanks for the input on time outs. It seems it is the attitude expressed by the parent that defines it as punitive or not. If I am understanding properly. I'll continue with the example of my son because he's really the only one this effects in our house. He is put on the ottoman because it is a safe place for him to be. He can still see me in either the living room or the kitchen from there for reassurance.

 

[Linnis]

Yeah, time outs are like when an adult goes to take a breather, 5 minutes to cool off. Then come back and deal with the situation.

I hated hearing "because I said so" growing up, I mean that wasn't going to stop me. "because I don't want you to get burned." I however did listen to.

 

[kikiboy]

Thank you so much. I want to learn from you all I can about this area. I realize that spanking or sending alone in his room is not working with my boy and I don't want to do this. I want to raise a responsible man not one who is afraid of doing something because "mommy will punish me".


Yes he is understanding both languages without any problem. He can even say words in both. We are living in Hungary right now so i enjoy so much to talk with you moms.
So, any advice you have is welcome.
What do you do in a store when he refuses to come out to the check line? I told him that I need to go and he need to come or I will pick him up and go. He refused to come so I ended up picking him up and putting in the cart and ... he screamed like craizy. It's hard and I understand why my husband don't want to go shopping with him, but I needed to do it today.

So, please tell me more about this age and what kind of choices I could give him.

 

[RoseofLima]

Thank you so much. I want to learn from you all I can about this area. I realize that spanking or sending alone in his room is not working with my boy and I don't want to do this. I want to raise a responsible man not one who is afraid of doing something because "mommy will punish me".


Yes he is understanding both languages without any problem. He can even say words in both. We are living in Hungary right now so i enjoy so much to talk with you moms.
So, any advice you have is welcome.
What do you do in a store when he refuses to come out to the check line? I told him that I need to go and he need to come or I will pick him up and go. He refused to come so I ended up picking him up and putting in the cart and ... he screamed like craizy. It's hard and I understand why my husband don't want to go shopping with him, but I needed to do it today.

So, please tell me more about this age and what kind of choices I could give him.

Before we go into a store- I express my expectations up front. I try to keep it short and to the point. For example:
"Here's what I expect in the store:
1. Don't ask me for anything. The answer is no.
2. You have to be seated in the cart. The whole time.
3. You have to hold my hand while we check out."

Go over if a few times. And then when it's the "Pop tarts!!!" chorus- just restate it "Rule #1 - don't ask me for anything. The answer is no." Or you could ask them , "Remember what rule #1 is?"

I never let my young kids walk through the store- it has just always led to disaster for me! They are either in the sling or in the cart. Period. They are allowed to walk around 4 1/2 or 5.

I do also try not to drag them along to the store more than is neccessary. I know it is hard for them. I dunno- I think it's important to learn not to give a hoot what other people think about your kids in public. If they're having a tantrum- just deal with it the same way you would at home. I think I grew a thick skin about what other people thought from nursing my toddlers. I was determined to do what I needed to do to comfort my toddlers- no matter what other people thought about it.

 

[BananaCake]

This is a very interesting thread. I think there's a lot that everyone could learn from it, whether they believe in "punitive" methods or not.

One thing I've gained from reading these 4 pages is how important it is to empower your child to make choices. My mom was a "because I said so" parent. When they divorced, my dad let me do whatever I wanted, as long as I told him where I was. And while I feel strongly now he should have given me more boundaries and direction, I appreciated being able to exercise some freedom while still under his watch.

 

[kikiboy]

Rose you are full of wisdom. It is great to learn from you. Thank you so much.
I was raised in a home when for every mistake you get a spank. I don't want to raise my child in the same way.