Open relationships.

Fin12 · Jun 23, 2008

When consented to by both parties is it moral? This is including sex as part of the realtionship, but not as the only objective.

I think this comes down to an issue of trust and mutual understading of each others needs.

Overall I'm ok with it, I've been in a couple, and every one I've come out fine and unharmed, we've enjoyed ourselves and that was that.

tim237 · Jun 23, 2008

Hi Fin12,

Just to clarify do you mean by open relationship that you are free to have intimate relationships (emotional and sexual) with another person (or other people)?

WhatThe · Jun 23, 2008

Personally i disagree with open relationships.
But that's because i'm the jealous type. I don't like to share

Polycarp_fan · Jun 23, 2008

Fin12 said:
When consented to by both parties is it moral? This is including sex as part of the realtionship, but not as the only objective.

I think this comes down to an issue of trust and mutual understading of each others needs.

Overall I'm ok with it, I've been in a couple, and every one I've come out fine and unharmed, we've enjoyed ourselves and that was that.

Live the way you want to, but know that there is no such relationship as you describe being supported or even offered as the way a Christian should live. "Overall" I would say that "open relationships" have proven to be a very deadly and very costly immorality in view of how many people's lives have been ended and ruined by such licentiousness as you present. Not only are peopled killed by promiscuity in the disease factor, but our mental health facilities and prisons are filled to overflowing with the offspring of behavior you claim was enjoyment for the participants. "Safe sex," may be one of the greatest contradiction in terms in human history.

cantata · Jun 23, 2008

Nothing wrong with it, as long as everyone's needs and feelings are respected - including those of any potential children and anyone romantically connected to parties directly involved.

It is quite possible to be an ethical s!ut.

Fin12 · Jun 23, 2008

Poly Carp.

You have yet too prove that only open relationships end in poor mental health, unwanted pregnancies and spreading of STD's, and that they are the cause of such things.

For instance 100% of car accidents are cuased by car drivers.
But we don't outlaw and ban cars label them as deadly, becuase when used correctly they are an extremely handy tool in society.

I have had roughly 6-7 open relationships now, I have yet too encounter any of the above, because I am "safe", and I ensure that the guidlines for the relationships are understood.

Marriages and monotonous relationships can result in STD's/divorces resulting in single parents and unwanted pregnancies, ou're argument seems to be agianst sex before marriage not open relationships.

Truth is people are responsible for their own emotions, if they dont feel comfortable in an open relationship they should ask for commitment or leave.

tim237 · Jun 23, 2008

Okay I figure it is what I thought. I'm sure this idea isn't going to float your boat but anyway...

Firstly let me make two foundations for my view:

We are supposed to live our Christian lives in reference to Christ "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith..." (Colossians 2:6-7a, ESV). So what I'm going to say is in reference to someone trying to live a life in reference to him.
The Bible expects a relationship between a man and a woman to model that between Christ and the church (Eph 5:22-33).

Now the thing we must ask ourselves is, how does God treat his relationship with the Church?

Is it an open relationship?

From God's perspective no! He never leaves his people for a new and better model. No matter how bad his people are he loves them to the end.
From our perspective? God expects that we will not run off with other gods. Just like WhatThe, God is a jealous type: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image...You shall not bow down to them and serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:4-5).

Therefore, we must say that open relationships are not God's plan for relationships. He is a God that makes everlasting covenants and that is why it is appropriate for us to make an everlasting covenant.

Adultery is clearly against God's plan for marriage and thus it must be for relationships too.

I know that's not the answer you want to hear but I'm convinced it's true, feel free to say anything you wish in response.

All the best as you grown in understanding of Jesus and his plan for you.

Tim

Aeris · Jun 23, 2008

Its not something I would want for myself because I dont like to share, but I think it is ok if other people have open relationships, I dont see anything morally wrong with it as long as you are being safe, and the partners of anyone involved are ok with it, if your partner doesnt know or isnt ok with it then I would say its not ok. As for it being against christianity, (I personally dont use religion as my guide to morality, but I just thought I point this out), there is polygamy in the bible, which an open relationship could be similar too minus the fact that they are not married to everyone they have sex with, however that could be because its not legal, it doesnt necessarily mean they arent close to those people.

Bombila · Jun 23, 2008

tim237 said:
Okay I figure it is what I thought. I'm sure this idea isn't going to float your boat but anyway...

Firstly let me make two foundations for my view:

We are supposed to live our Christian lives in reference to Christ "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith..." (Colossians 2:6-7a, ESV). So what I'm going to say is in reference to someone trying to live a life in reference to him.

The Bible expects a relationship between a man and a woman to model that between Christ and the church (Eph 5:22-33).

Now the thing we must ask ourselves is, how does God treat his relationship with the Church?

Is it an open relationship?

From God's perspective no! He never leaves his people for a new and better model. No matter how bad his people are he loves them to the end.

From our perspective? God expects that we will not run off with other gods. Just like WhatThe, God is a jealous type: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image...You shall not bow down to them and serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:4-5).

Therefore, we must say that open relationships are not God's plan for relationships. He is a God that makes everlasting covenants and that is why it is appropriate for us to make an everlasting covenant.

Adultery is clearly against God's plan for marriage and thus it must be for relationships too.

I know that's not the answer you want to hear but I'm convinced it's true, feel free to say anything you wish in response.

All the best as you grown in understanding of Jesus and his plan for you.

Tim

Open relationships most often are not about 'leaving for a new and better model'. Your assuming that makes it clear you are starting out with a misapprehension, which you then condemn. They are about freely enjoying each other and being inclusive of other people. Some open relationships become long term co-operative households, with children, SAHMs, wage earners, and a more or less equal number of men and women (more often called polyamory these days). Some are rapidly shifting affairs, where one does not end before another starts, but all parties are aware and fine with that dynamic.

Yes, God has been described as jealous. There's some evidence that he dumped his own wife, for no reason other than his own monomania and thirst for sacrifice and worship, and ultimately drove her from the Temple, having reduced her status there to that of an upright wooden stick, where formerly the people would offer her honey cakes (not the killed and burnt living animals God was demanding at the time). Of course, you don't believe that, and perhaps are shocked to hear of it, if you hadn't before, but when you consider the kind of wrathful destruction engaged in by God before he gets around to reforming his ways and offering New Covenants, doesn't it seem plausible?

For me personally, I'm not likely to want an open relationship, but I have seen them be successful, and I can see how they can be desireable.

PassionFruit · Jun 23, 2008

I don't see anything wrong with open relationships. I have a friend who is in an open relationship and it seems to work out fine her. I couldn't do it, because I am the jealous type. Just like any other relationship I believe open relationships have to have communication, trust, honesty, etc. between both parties. Also, wouldn't this discussion include open marriages?

It is quite possible to be an ethical s!ut.

Fin12 · Jun 23, 2008

tim237 said:
Okay I figure it is what I thought. I'm sure this idea isn't going to float your boat but anyway...

Firstly let me make two foundations for my view:

We are supposed to live our Christian lives in reference to Christ "Therefore, as you received Christ Jesus so walk in him, rooted and built up in him and established in the faith..." (Colossians 2:6-7a, ESV). So what I'm going to say is in reference to someone trying to live a life in reference to him.

The Bible expects a relationship between a man and a woman to model that between Christ and the church (Eph 5:22-33).

Now the thing we must ask ourselves is, how does God treat his relationship with the Church?

Is it an open relationship?

From God's perspective no! He never leaves his people for a new and better model. No matter how bad his people are he loves them to the end.

From our perspective? God expects that we will not run off with other gods. Just like WhatThe, God is a jealous type: "You shall not make for yourself a carved image...You shall not bow down to them and serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God" (Exodus 20:4-5).

Therefore, we must say that open relationships are not God's plan for relationships. He is a God that makes everlasting covenants and that is why it is appropriate for us to make an everlasting covenant.

Adultery is clearly against God's plan for marriage and thus it must be for relationships too.

I know that's not the answer you want to hear but I'm convinced it's true, feel free to say anything you wish in response.

All the best as you grown in understanding of Jesus and his plan for you.

Tim

I was asking from a more "ethics and morality" angle, sort of human intuition and opinion, rather than a theological rule book.

I wasn't expecting god to condon it, anyone who has recognised my username (although it has changed slightly) knows I battled with my faith; and views in my life -consequently- changed. I am by "christian standards" naturally "evil" and so I would rather be an honest vagabond scoundral, than a hyprocryte of a saint, who am I to challenge my identity?

So now I take things day by day and "let the chips fall as they may".

Thanks for your reply anyway Tim.

tim237 · Jun 23, 2008

Hey Bombila,

I apologise for my misunderstanding. Nevertheless, I'm sure you agree that this doesn't fit God's character.

I am not surprised by anything you have said, I love the God who has revealed himself in Scripture not the made up God of many people. He is greater than you can imagine. If you will grant me the opportunity to defend him on a few matters I will be grateful.

God is totally justified to have left Israel's temple. They committed adultery by worshipping other gods. They themselves agreed to the terms of their marriage contract and so it is the own fault.

Yet it can hardly be called a divorce as they got back together in a very short time. God loves his people.

Moreover, Romans 9 makes clear there was an elect with Israel, i.e. there were people in the nation that weren't part of the wife. They were not loved because they are not the wife.

Let's put it this way. God wasn't in an open relationship. He agreed to have a one wife, the specific group within Israel. The wife rejected that and ran off with other men. How awful is that! Yet we find out in Hosea (where God uses this exact metaphor) that God has the adulteress back! This is not a God who is a monomaniac. It is a God who deeply loves his people.

Also on the topic of polygamy, the Bible never says it is right it just happens. Indeed in the new testament in reference to elders it is said that they should be husbands of one wife (Titus 1:6). It is clearly the ideal of Christianity.

Whether the partakers accept an open relationship or not it is not the ideal of Christianity. Sex is a beautiful thing between two persons who love each other very much. So there you go.

Anyway thank you for taking the time to respond, I hope I have made myself clear, even if I haven't convinced you .

Dear Fin12,

Fairdos. My ethics are always going to be coloured by my beliefs as yours are going to be coloured by yours (whatever they may be). You must excuse we Christians hanging around these parts

I am saddened by your decision and hope it will change, but I respect your honesty. If there is anything you wish to talk about please private message me.

I too am a wretch, as no doubt you will some day see here, but I am not going to reject a God who will change me to be how I was meant to be and who gives me what I don't deserve. I pray you won't either.

My prayers for you both and thank you for allowing me to partake in your discussion.
Tim

HaloHope · Jun 23, 2008

Certainly not my place to judge open relationships, while I can't really fathom how people deal with them, as long as nobody get hurt, no jealousy is involved and all in them are honest about the situation with other partners I cant really see any secular reason against it.

From a personal standpoint I must admit I do find it confusing, from my own moral standpoint (in that I believe in monogamy due to my religious convictions) and just because I don't get it. If I were to have sex with even two people seperatly in seperate relationships in my life it would be a HUGE deal to me and Id feel pretty bad about myself. I believe in giving yourself completely when possible, to one individual emotionally/sexually etc.. and after sharing that with my current partner I cannot fathom sharing it with anyone else or desiring to share it with someone else, even if we broke up.

Thinking about this further the other day I think it could be because in general I have an extremely low sex drive, and as a rule dont often desire it, want it or think about it, but when I do feel the urge, it is always a big deal to me as it seems rare, and I feel amazingly lucky to have a person I love and care about a lot to share those moments with. Sharing them with someone else in my lifetime would be extremely strange and uncomfortable.

CCGirl · Jun 23, 2008

Is this the same as having "friends with benefits"?

Bombila · Jun 23, 2008

tim237 said:
Hey Bombila,

I apologise for my misunderstanding. Nevertheless, I'm sure you agree that this doesn't fit God's character.

I am not surprised by anything you have said, I love the God who has revealed himself in Scripture not the made up God of many people. He is greater than you can imagine. If you will grant me the opportunity to defend him on a few matters I will be grateful.

God is totally justified to have left Israel's temple. They committed adultery by worshipping other gods. They themselves agreed to the terms of their marriage contract and so it is the own fault.

Yet it can hardly be called a divorce as they got back together in a very short time. God loves his people.

Moreover, Romans 9 makes clear there was an elect with Israel, i.e. there were people in the nation that weren't part of the wife. They were not loved because they are not the wife.

Let's put it this way. God wasn't in an open relationship. He agreed to have a one wife, the specific group within Israel. The wife rejected that and ran off with other men. How awful is that! Yet we find out in Hosea (where God uses this exact metaphor) that God has the adulteress back! This is not a God who is a monomaniac. It is a God who deeply loves his people.

Also on the topic of polygamy, the Bible never says it is right it just happens. Indeed in the new testament in reference to elders it is said that they should be husbands of one wife (Titus 1:6). It is clearly the ideal of Christianity.

Whether the partakers accept an open relationship or not it is not the ideal of Christianity. Sex is a beautiful thing between two persons who love each other very much. So there you go.

Anyway thank you for taking the time to respond, I hope I have made myself clear, even if I haven't convinced you .

No need to apologize - i just noticed that you seemed to have misunderstood the nature of the relationship being discussed.

But I was not directly referring to God's relationship with Israel, but to the archaeological and various documented and even Biblical evidence that Yahweh in the earliest days had a wife, who was called Asherah (among others), and may have been El's consort before then. There is a lot of interesting research about this ancient couple, some of it quite convincing - I find massive stones set up as clearly male-female couples persuasive in context. Too much to discuss here, and it's just something I've recently been looking at.

The kernel of the story is that eventually Yahweh demanded that all reference to Asherah must be removed, even to the wooden pole that represented her (as a tree) in the temple. So in a sense, God put aside his first wife and took up with Israel. I have added a few references, but really, most of what is online and accessible (not in journals that need to be subscribed to) is New Age/Pagan gloss that doesn't do much justice to the archaeological evidence and mixes in a dozen other goddesses on the basis of their being female.

http://instruct1.cit.cornell.edu/courses/nes275/studentproj/fall05/kmr38/page2.html

http://www.classicalhebrewblog.com/...herah-and-yahweh-in-early-israelite-religion/

http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?letter=A&artid=1942

http://prophetess.lstc.edu/~rklein/Documents/Stones.htm

ACougar · Jun 23, 2008

I believe the vast majority of people who attempt this kind of lifestyle are not prepared to deal with it. Most often if ends in destroyed relationships, distrust and misery. It is possible and it can be a good thing if done under the right circumstances, however those circumstances are extremely rare IMO. I've seen over a dozen such relationships, and only one has ever stood the test of time. About a 6% success rate, not impossible but not good either.

As for fitting Gods character... it seems to me that God loves diversity.

Mling · Jun 23, 2008

I'm fine with polyamory in other people, but have no urge to try it for myself. If I were to get into a relationship with somebody I knew was poly to start with, I would be willing to try it, I think, but may end up backing out. If somebody wanted to "open up" a relationship we were already in...I'd be nervous. I don't know what I'd do then.

PassionFruit · Jun 23, 2008

CCGirl said:
Is this the same as having "friends with benefits"?

Open relationships or even open marriages are more like, I'm guessing the two people involved are committed to each other emotionally and physically but at the same time, they're free to take other partners.

Verv · Jun 23, 2008

People are meant to be married and meant to be exclusive. And kids are meant to know their fathers, and kids are meant to be raised by a family. Naturally, every society has drifted towards exclusivity in relationships.

Adults do not sleep with each others spouses in healthy societies because it disrupts families, ruins kids perspectives on marriage and loyalty.

People live much unhappier lives with higher divorce rates, etc. People want close relationships with their families...

I do not really know, but I do know that I would feel hurt to want to be with a woman so much and be in a relationship that resulted in her sleeping with other men.

I was cheated on recently and it was a painful experience because I did not want to be with anyone else. It's pretty simple equation. If you truly love someone you do not need anyone else.

RealDealNeverstop · Jun 23, 2008

As long as both parties are honest with each other and the people they meet I don't see anything immoral or unethical. There was a seinfeld episode where he met a woman who presented herself as unattached but when seinfeld went to her apartment it was clear she was living with (sex) with another guy.

Seems to me those relationships are born out of mutually admitted insecurities with a safety net. Kind of like "friends with benefits" approach but like I said, don't see anything immoral about them.

Open relationships.

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