Open relationships.

[cantata]

Yeah, think a lot of it comes down to knowing self. Swing clubs are about sex, then there's OR's that share intimacy as well as sex. There are many variations but at least people are pushing the freedom envelope because adults should not be restricted by the walls of hollow piety draped in bigotry on nothing but fear and ignorance.

Yes, I agree with you - it's good that people are gaining the freedom to find the right situation for themselves. I think you missed "shame" out, by the way There's a lot of shame surrounding these issues that needs to be dispelled.

To a certain extent, by the way, I think that the existence of open relationships is necessary to combat patriarchy (just as the existence of gay and lesbian relationships is), but that is not to say that everyone should be engaging in them. People who want to do so need to go ahead and enjoy swinging, or have their open or polyamorous relationships, to show the world that they do really exist, and that we need to stop assuming that the old way is the way that everyone wants. The important part is choice. People need to be able to choose what's best for them, rather than be squished into a mould.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Yes, I agree with you - it's good that people are gaining the freedom to find the right situation for themselves. I think you missed "shame" out, by the way There's a lot of shame surrounding these issues that needs to be dispelled.

To a certain extent, by the way, I think that the existence of open relationships is necessary to combat patriarchy (just as the existence of gay and lesbian relationships is), but that is not to say that everyone should be engaging in them. People who want to do so need to go ahead and enjoy swinging, or have their open or polyamorous relationships, to show the world that they do really exist, and that we need to stop assuming that the old way is the way that everyone wants. The important part is choice. People need to be able to choose what's best for them, rather than be squished into a mould.

Bringing about change is difficult and requires sacrifice at some point and some (many actually) are too afraid of real sacrifice so they put on a show then back down when it really matters. Even simple terms can create funky reactions and I remember once my insurance agent saw my ex-partner's name on a piece of paper I had and he ask me who she was. (Obvious female name) So I said she's my partner and he got confused and asked "Business partner?" and I said no, "We are living together." He looked at me kind of strange and I said, "Well, iam not a pedophile so I don't date 'girls' and it would be an insult to reduce a woman to a girl and to say 'girlfriend' is a tag of ownership and I don't own her so we are partners." He looked like he just saw a UFO so I shook his hand and left.

Being in the artisan trade I interact with a lot of the blue collar budweiser buffalo wing sucking crowd and it's amazing what can transpire in conversations with these guys.

It's really about learning and discussing issues when it would be "easier" to just go along. It's also amazing how many people in our culture are ignorant of the forces that drive our focus. Ann nicole smith is a great example. She accomplished nothing in her life worthy of media coverage yet she was in the media fairly regularly and when she died...goodness...the coverage was annoying as hell. We had countless Soldiers dying and being wounded, men and women who were making REAL sacrifices yet they didn't get a single second of media attention. But, the bleached blonde metaphysical manifestation of our culture captured the attention of over 100 million viewers.

Okay, sorry for the rambling!

 

[ACougar]

It's when someone has several spouses but does not have relationships outside that marriage.

Having multiple spouses is illegal. It's simply an arrangement where more that two people are in a commited relationship, and the individuals in that relationship restrict relations to others in that relationship.

 

[Verv]

Can a person always be entirely honest with themselves?

For a while you might be open to the idea of having a relationship where you can sleep with other people. It doesn't really matter to you.

You change a little over time and as you keep loving that person and you stop sleeping with other people. Meanwhile, you are at home with the kids drinking a cognac and staring outside your window wondering when your lover is going to come home.

And you feel strange and knotted inside because you cannot get over the fact that right now they would rather be with someone else, giving their body to them, than be with you. And maybe it didn't matter once.

But now you are alone and you feel alone all the time because there is nothing that is special or unique about your relationship anymore.

This is a recipe for disaster and I could use a hug.

 

[ACougar]

It may be a good thing for a man to get over the whole ownership programing, then again your tinkering big time with a persons cultural ecology (not sure how to describe the whole range of cultural inputs and assumptions a person makes that make up form the basis of who we are, and our relationship to everything else) ... we don't really understand the full impact of that unraveling on the male psyche. Normally when people move from one "culture" to the next, their completely immersed into the new culture long enough to regain some sort of psychological footing. In this case their still constantly receiving cultural signals that reinforce the idea that men own their women.

Very very astute observation. This ownership tag dates back over 4,000 years. Look at Deut. where it states if a man sleeps with (some translations say rape, seize, lay hold of) a virgin prior to being married that she is forced to marry him and he must pay her father a fixed price. This tradition is very much alive today as men still ask the father to "take" his daughter's hand in marriage. If approved, the father walks the woman down the aisle to "give" her away to be married. It is metaphorically and literally a transaction of ownership. She gets taken by the hand from one man (her father) to be given to the hand of another man (her husband.) A related tag of ownership is the engagement ring. She doesn't wear it for herself, but for her fiance as it's a symbol to other men she is "spoken" for.

Additionally, the gender tag of ownership is extended beyond women to objects. Ships, boats, cars, and motorcycles are often referred to as "she." Patriarchal structures train men to view everything in ownership as female designated. It also trains women their role is to be owned.

 

[ACougar]

If you have needs, you need to be able to communicate them. If you need to be with your love, then you need to be able to tell them and they need to understand and be ok with that.

There are many differant kinds of open and poly relationship, they all require ridiculous amounts of work on many levels. A lot of that work is on a personal level dealing with issues of ownership, jelousy, self worth, purpose. Then there is all the extra work that has to go into the relationship. Open relationships are a bad idea for most people.

Can a person always be entirely honest with themselves?

For a while you might be open to the idea of having a relationship where you can sleep with other people. It doesn't really matter to you.

You change a little over time and as you keep loving that person and you stop sleeping with other people. Meanwhile, you are at home with the kids drinking a cognac and staring outside your window wondering when your lover is going to come home.

And you feel strange and knotted inside because you cannot get over the fact that right now they would rather be with someone else, giving their body to them, than be with you. And maybe it didn't matter once.

But now you are alone and you feel alone all the time because there is nothing that is special or unique about your relationship anymore.

This is a recipe for disaster and I could use a hug.

 

[stan1980]

Can a person always be entirely honest with themselves?

For a while you might be open to the idea of having a relationship where you can sleep with other people. It doesn't really matter to you.

You change a little over time and as you keep loving that person and you stop sleeping with other people. Meanwhile, you are at home with the kids drinking a cognac and staring outside your window wondering when your lover is going to come home.

And you feel strange and knotted inside because you cannot get over the fact that right now they would rather be with someone else, giving their body to them, than be with you. And maybe it didn't matter once.

But now you are alone and you feel alone all the time because there is nothing that is special or unique about your relationship anymore.

Playing devils advocate for a second, that could happen in a monogamous relationship too, just that in a monogamous relationship the guy or lady will likely lie about where they are, and you'll be even further away from working things out.

This is a recipe for disaster and I could use a hug.

To be fair, every relationship is a recipe disaster, or it has been in my case

*Gives JM a man hug*

 

[cantata]

Having multiple spouses is illegal. It's simply an arrangement where more that two people are in a commited relationship, and the individuals in that relationship restrict relations to others in that relationship.

The context in which I mentioned closed polygamy was one where I was talking about the norm for romantic relationships throughout history: that is, monogamy or closed polygamy.

Closed polyamory, which is what you describe, is a relatively new phenomenon, or at least it's never been as widespread as it is now.

Can a person always be entirely honest with themselves?

For a while you might be open to the idea of having a relationship where you can sleep with other people. It doesn't really matter to you.

You change a little over time and as you keep loving that person and you stop sleeping with other people. Meanwhile, you are at home with the kids drinking a cognac and staring outside your window wondering when your lover is going to come home.

And you feel strange and knotted inside because you cannot get over the fact that right now they would rather be with someone else, giving their body to them, than be with you. And maybe it didn't matter once.

But now you are alone and you feel alone all the time because there is nothing that is special or unique about your relationship anymore.

This is a recipe for disaster and I could use a hug.

In every relationship, people must be able to express their needs, or it's doomed to failure. Guess what? People can end up wanting different things in *any* relationship. The important part is whether you're able to work through that, and that doesn't depend on whether your relationship is open or not.

Here, have a *hug* anyway.

 

[RealDealNeverstop]

Can a person always be entirely honest with themselves?

For a while you might be open to the idea of having a relationship where you can sleep with other people. It doesn't really matter to you.

You change a little over time and as you keep loving that person and you stop sleeping with other people. Meanwhile, you are at home with the kids drinking a cognac and staring outside your window wondering when your lover is going to come home.

And you feel strange and knotted inside because you cannot get over the fact that right now they would rather be with someone else, giving their body to them, than be with you. And maybe it didn't matter once.

But now you are alone and you feel alone all the time because there is nothing that is special or unique about your relationship anymore.

This is a recipe for disaster and I could use a hug.

The only thing that is absolute in humans is death, so no we can't always be entirely honest with ourselves all the time but that doesn't mean we do anything other than to do the best we are able.

I've dated a very wide range of women both in appearance and character traits but I didn't start noticing some core patterns until some self examination happened...it was rough but worth it. Often times we can be driven to attraction and while it gives that emotional love high, it could also be the worst in us coming out. Ever hear people say things like "Why do I keep attracting the psychos?" Or "I have so much love to give so I don't know why I haven't found someone" or "Iam really down to earth but I still can't meet people." Or "Every person I've dated has treated me badly." Those are all texas sized red flags.

Self honesty isn't a moment but a process and lifestyle so one may enter open or monogamous relationships and regret it for X reason. The key is to summon the courage to get out of it and move on while harnessing the energy and awareness of not entering a similar situation.

I don't have any hugs but I do have some Sam Adams Summer Ale with freshly sliced lemons! (And some thai ginger shrimp!)

 

[Verv]

If you have needs, you need to be able to communicate them. If you need to be with your love, then you need to be able to tell them and they need to understand and be ok with that.

There are many differant kinds of open and poly relationship, they all require ridiculous amounts of work on many levels. A lot of that work is on a personal level dealing with issues of ownership, jelousy, self worth, purpose. Then there is all the extra work that has to go into the relationship. Open relationships are a bad idea for most people.

It seems accurate that they would require more effort and work; and what is the benefit>?

And doesn't it kill an amount of romance now that you are also experiencing romance with a diversity of people?

So what is the point?

thanks for the hug -

Playing devils advocate for a second, that could happen in a monogamous relationship too, just that in a monogamous relationship the guy or lady will likely lie about where they are, and you'll be even further away from working things out.




To be fair, every relationship is a recipe disaster, or it has been in my case

*Gives JM a man hug*

Haha -- thanks bro -- and yeah, I agree with that. People do lie. People do cheat.

I think it is just important that we moreally are not the ones doing it.

Though the system may be broken I do not want to be a contributor to that.

The context in which I mentioned closed polygamy was one where I was talking about the norm for romantic relationships throughout history: that is, monogamy or closed polygamy.

Closed polyamory, which is what you describe, is a relatively new phenomenon, or at least it's never been as widespread as it is now.



In every relationship, people must be able to express their needs, or it's doomed to failure. Guess what? People can end up wanting different things in *any* relationship. The important part is whether you're able to work through that, and that doesn't depend on whether your relationship is open or not.

Here, have a *hug* anyway.

Yeah, you are right that people need to express their needs and people do always get different wants.

And I do not want to be in a relationship where I have to deal with the notion of 'sharing' my lover. And I do not really want to go beyond that.

It doesn't seem like it cultivates anything.

The only thing that is absolute in humans is death, so no we can't always be entirely honest with ourselves all the time but that doesn't mean we do anything other than to do the best we are able.

I've dated a very wide range of women both in appearance and character traits but I didn't start noticing some core patterns until some self examination happened...it was rough but worth it. Often times we can be driven to attraction and while it gives that emotional love high, it could also be the worst in us coming out. Ever hear people say things like "Why do I keep attracting the psychos?" Or "I have so much love to give so I don't know why I haven't found someone" or "Iam really down to earth but I still can't meet people." Or "Every person I've dated has treated me badly." Those are all texas sized red flags.

Self honesty isn't a moment but a process and lifestyle so one may enter open or monogamous relationships and regret it for X reason. The key is to summon the courage to get out of it and move on while harnessing the energy and awareness of not entering a similar situation.

I don't have any hugs but I do have some Sam Adams Summer Ale with freshly sliced lemons! (And some thai ginger shrimp!)

Oh that sounds excellent -- thai ginger shrimp, sam adams... That's lovely. I am now hungry for dinner and it is only 3 pm.

And you are right... self-honesty has to enter the equation now. We have to be honest with what we want.

 

[cantata]

Yeah, you are right that people need to express their needs and people do always get different wants.

And I do not want to be in a relationship where I have to deal with the notion of 'sharing' my lover. And I do not really want to go beyond that.

No, I understand that. Lots of people don't want it, and that's fine.

For me, it's no sacrifice at all, really; I don't have much in the way of jealous feelings. Try to imagine if you had a friend who didn't like his wife doing something quite ordinary with a male friend - grocery shopping, say, something that wouldn't make you feel jealous - and you'll begin to see how I feel about sexual jealousy!

It doesn't seem like it cultivates anything.

Well, as I said, it's no sacrifice for me, really. I wouldn't say it necessarily cultivates anything, although I do think it is a wonderful display of trust, to allow one's partner to see other people. Mostly it comes down to simply thinking about sexual relationships differently. My boyfriend is attracted to a girl; they sleep together. What of it, if our health is protected? What has that to do with me? Will it change his feelings about me? I don't believe that it has to - indeed, if anything, I find him more appreciative of me than ever when he's been with someone else.

 

[PassionFruit]

Well, as I said, it's no sacrifice for me, really. I wouldn't say it necessarily cultivates anything, although I do think it is a wonderful display of trust, to allow one's partner to see other people. Mostly it comes down to simply thinking about sexual relationships differently. My boyfriend is attracted to a girl; they sleep together. What of it, if our health is protected? What has that to do with me? Will it change his feelings about me? I don't believe that it has to - indeed, if anything, I find him more appreciative of me than ever when he's been with someone else.

That's very understanding of you cantata. Some people can be in open relationships, it does seem like an interesting relationship to be in. But I believe you're right, I believe you had to have a totally different way of viewing of sexual relationships. It may seem better than me with my "friends with benefits" relationships.

 

[ACougar]

It seems accurate that they would require more effort and work; and what is the benefit>?

And doesn't it kill an amount of romance now that you are also experiencing romance with a diversity of people?

So what is the point?

thanks for the hug -

The benefit I think has to do with Love, being able to love a little more freely. Unwinding yourself from the whole ownership concept. Plus there are economic benefits, more adults, more salaries, more people to help with housework, watch children, if done correctly by people who are really ready to undertake this kind of journey it can be a good thing.

Does having more than one child limmit in any way the amount of love you can shower on a child? The more love we give, the more love we have to give..