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Open-Minded Creationism!

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Mallon

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So then how do you read Joshua 1:8
I would ask what the "Book of Law" was to those ancient Hebrews. What is it to you? Does "the Law" contain apocryphal books like Maccabees? If not, why not? Did Paul include Maccabees in his reference to "all" Scipture? He certainly didn't say "All Scipture except Maccabees, Tobit, Wisdom, etc., is God-breathed."
What other source is there for divine authority? Please don't tell me science!
You're begging the question. I don't mean to imply that there is a source beyond Scripture that reveals divine authority. I am simply questioning whether the books we consider "Scripture" were the same one's, say, Paul did. The Bible does not give us an answer.
 
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Willtor

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I'm not sure what the statement or idea of fitting literary devices together is in reference to. If you believe the codex is complete, what makes it so? How do you know? Was it man's initiative and knowledge that made it so or was it God working His perfect will through man?

The statement is specifically in reference to the end of Revelation. The reason I address that particular example is that its broader application (however apt) is inferred, not by its placement in a common codex alongside the other Scriptural texts, but through reason. The consequence this has on the 2 Tim verse is that 2 Tim may not intentionally refer to 2 Tim, even if one accepts that it does by extension. After all, it seems quite redundant to say (at the very least) that all Scripture is useful for teaching, correcting, and doctrine. It could only intentionally be self referential if Paul knew that he was, at that moment, writing Scripture.

Now, it may be that he knew. But one can't infer that from the text, itself. And I've never read a Church Father who said one way or another. Merely, they thought very highly of him and didn't endeavor to instruct as he did.

Is the codex complete? There's nothing magical about the codex. Some codices include Deuterocanon, introductions by Church Fathers, notes, cross-references, numbers, pericope titles, etc. That said, do you mean to ask whether other books ought to be included in the canon?
 
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HSetterfield

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A few responses all crammed together, if you will permit me...

1. When Paul was referring Timothy to 'all Scripture' in 2 Timothy 3:16, the reference there had to be what we call the Old Testament and what they referred to as the Law and the Prophets (this was the general term, but did include the books of poetry, such as Psalms). It has nothing to do with the Gospels, Acts, the Epistles, or Revelation, which are the New Testament.

What is interesting is that in 2 Peter 3:16, Peter refers to Paul's writings as Scripture! However, when Paul was writing to Timothy, his reference would have been to the Law and the Prophets.

2. The basic purpose of the Scriptures was to describe man's relationship to God and God's provision for those who believed on Him. It deals with true history and true science, but it is neither a history nor a science text. However, where it deals with history or science, it is accurate. It might be said that the Bible is a history and science guide, giving the parameters within which the truth can be found. My husband and I have found, in our combined areas of research, that this is exactly right -- the Bible knows what it is talking about in whatever area it touches.

3. Assyrian, it is common among all the Christian churches I have attended (several different denominations) to consider the Bible inerrant in the original mss/tablets. If you consider what the Bible is, what comprises it, that is not hard to understand.
Evidence is mounting that Genesis itself is a series of eyewitness tablets, signed off by each of the respective authors. These would have been collated and edited by Moses (we can see some editorial comments in them) and thus considered one of his books, along with the rest Pentateuch. The four other books are history and law. Then you have the other books of history, written by the scribes of the times lived. Following that is Job, which is the earliest completed book of the Bible, describing the time immediately following Peleg.

The histories in these books are either true or they are not. They do not leave room for 'part myth, part truth.' They are presented as straightforward history and must be accepted or rejected on their own terms.

Following them are the books of Poetry: Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiates, Song of Songs (Song of Solomon). It is these books you might want to agree or disagree with in part. The Israelites, however, considered them to be Holy Scripture, having stood the test of time and concordance with the rest of Scripture.

Then the OT has the books of the Prophets. A lot of history is repeated here and/or referred to. Again, the history itself is either accurate or it is not. It was considered by the people of the time and those that followed to be accurate. The prophecies themselves which are contained in these books have shown themselves to be startlingly accurate.

Now, are there problems with our modern versions? Yes, some. For instance, the Masoretic text, which is the basis for our Old Testaments in English and most other modern languages, systematically drops a cipher for 100 from the genealogies in Genesis 5 and 11. When these years are added in, the earth's age is extended by about 2000 years and there is no longer any problem with coordination with Egyptian chronology. The original numbers can be found in the Alexandrian Septuagint, which was translated 250-300 years before Christ by Hebrew scholars from paleo-Hebrew to classical Greek. So we do have this check for a number of things, and we can see where the translators of the Masoretic seemed to have something going on which has caused some arguments later.

We have found, probably originating in the Middle Ages when all was being done by hand, a few transposed numbers and such, and the spelling of some names is altered somewhat. That is most of the changes, actually.

Aside from that, there are three parts of the New Testament which are not found in the earliest mss. The first is the ending of Mark. The earliest mss we can find end Mark with 16:8. The addition later is one which has caused enormous confusion, for it is the only place where it is written that baptism is necessary for salvation and it is also the place where it was written that poison could be drunk and snakes handled without harm. This is entirely different from everything in all the rest of the New Testament.

The second passage which is not in the earliest mss is actually a very famous one. It is when the woman caught in adultery is brought to Jesus. It may very well have happened, but, as I said, the earliest mss simply do not have this incident (John 7:53-8:11).

The last known alteration in the NT appeared to have happened, again, in the Middle Ages, when a marginal note by someone was inserted into the text. This can be found in 1 John 5:7-8 and is usually given in study Bible text notes rather than in the text itself.

But in the long run, the Bible is still totally dependable. The history is valid, the science is valid, the prophecies are valid, and the message God has given us about our relationship with Him and what He has done for us in Christ Jesus is unchanged through time. Those who doubt the message or the validity have been given the science remarks and the history to help validate the authenticity of this Book.

And that is why the science and history are so vehemently attacked by some. If you can destroy credibility, then all man had to depend upon is himself. For some, that is exactly what they want.

For me, I have found God is faithful and I can depend on Him entirely.

4. Mallon, if the Scriptures were written as filtered through man's understanding, then we would not have passages such as "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11.

Rather, the histories were given by those who lived them. The prophecies were from God and they clearly did not always understand what they were writing, but they were faithful to put down what they had been shown.
 
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vossler

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I would ask what the "Book of Law" was to those ancient Hebrews. What is it to you? Does "the Law" contain apocryphal books like Maccabees? If not, why not? Did Paul include Maccabees in his reference to "all" Scipture? He certainly didn't say "All Scipture except Maccabees, Tobit, Wisdom, etc., is God-breathed."
I don't really understand why this is seemingly so complicated. All Scripture plainly means everything that has been identified as Scripture, even if at the time it hadn't yet been so identified, the example from Joshua fits this description quite well. Since God didn't choose to include the Maccabees within the canon they are not Scripture. In order to believe this, one would have to consent to the fact that God is omniscient and is able to ensure His Word is presented undiluted and complete. I have no problem with that one iota, it would appear you seem to not be so sure.
You're begging the question. I don't mean to imply that there is a source beyond Scripture that reveals divine authority. I am simply questioning whether the books we consider "Scripture" were the same one's, say, Paul did. The Bible does not give us an answer.
I would say they weren't because much of the New Testament wasn't even complete yet or at least not in any sort of cohesive form. The Bible simply says "all Scripture" and since Scripture has been identified as the 66 books of the Bible then everything within it is to be considered Scripture. It's really not too complicated for me to understand and I'm surprised that it is for so many.
 
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laptoppop

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I would argue that the Scripture ARE from God, filtered through the limitations of human understanding. We see this all over the Scriptures. We see this when reference is made to a flat earth, a geocentric solar system, a six-day creation, a sky with windows, etc., etc., etc. Paul himself even admits to "uninspired" wisdom (1 Cor 7:12). Thankfully, I have yet to find a Scriptural verse that states, "The medium is the message." God's spiritual/eternal truths resonate despite man's finite nature. That's the power of God!
I would agree with "from God" and disagree with filtered. Jesus valued the law down not to the concept or even the word, but down to the smallest jot and tittle -- detail. Where you see cultural filtering, I see figures of speech. I refer to the sun rising and setting -- and yet I know better. It does not imply geocentrism, just a figure of speech.

I agree! I see no reason to assume that God blessed all authors with perfect knowledge of everything, however. Do you?
Regardless, even biblical prophesy is quite obviously metaphorical at times. Take Genesis' description of Jesus crushing the head of the snake, for example.
I don't claim the authors had full understanding of what they wrote, let alone knowledge of everything. I do claim that the all-knowing all-powerful God directed the writing in a perfect way.

In terms of metaphor - don't confuse the medium with the message. Just because I might use a metaphor or illustration does not mean I lack understanding or that I am incorrect. It just doesn't affect this discussion at all.
 
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laptoppop

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Evidence is mounting that Genesis itself is a series of eyewitness tablets, signed off by each of the respective authors. These would have been collated and edited by Moses (we can see some editorial comments in them) and thus considered one of his books, along with the rest Pentateuch.
For the most part, we agree pretty well about this topic. However, I would like to inquire about this one point:

What "evidence" is mounting? As far as I know, all that is mounting is analysis of the actual evidence we have. I am not aware of any partial documents or anything like that which shows one part of Genesis. So far, what I've seen has been underwhelming in major ways. I've seen some hilarious examples where the same textual critiques were applied to the writings of some of these authors - showing their own writings as if they were written from multiple sources. A good layperson's reference on this is Josh McDowell's "Evidence that Demands a Verdict, Volume II". Is there any new evidence (not analysis) that I've missed?
 
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Willtor

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HSetterfield, again, it would be problematic to pit truth and myth against one another, even if that is consistent with the colloquial applications of those words. You may wish to argue for the truth of the Scriptures and your arguments may be well-placed. Furthermore, you may argue against mythology as the literary form of a particular text, and your arguments may be well-placed. But it would be best if you didn't conflate the two arguments.
 
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HSetterfield

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laptoppop (love that name...)

In the 1930's Wiseman realized that the most ancient tablets we have from the Mesopotamian area all are signed off by the author at the bottom of the tablet. He took another look at Genesis and realized then that this may have been exactly what they did. Curt Sewell, who died last year (a good friend, he was quite old, and one of the scientists who worked on the Manhattan Project in WWII. His testimony is in his autobiograph, "God at Ground Zero"), did a very good job of putting a lot of the material together, here:
http://www.ldolphin.org/tablethy.html

I also have material written by some of the Professors of the OT in universities talking about the validity of this, but I think they are too long to post here. I can send them on a word file if you want to email me.
 
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laptoppop

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HSetterfield,
Yes, I've heard of the tablet theory -- and it may be true (it doesn't contradict a literal Genesis, for example). I will point out, though, that none of the "tablets" have ever been found -- it is what I would call conjecture from analysis. I'd also have to look at the NT scriptures where Jesus talks about Mosaic authorship, etc. to form a fuller opinion. So as such, I guess I would not call it a growing body of evidence, but instead just a particular analysis. No big problem - more semantics than anything else. Lord Bless!
 
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Gwenyfur

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i can see how my comments can be interpreted as a slam on Ezra, it was not intented that way. _young man luther_ i book i really dislike, is full of this "getting it someone's mind and telling us what he is thinking". it proports to be history and certainly is not. Ezra doesn't make the claim to be modern history, the evidence is that it is full of the same attribution of people's motive and thoughts. It is not that this style of writing is junk, it is that it is not modern historical writing and Erickson doesn't have the right to call what he does either science or history or even to tell us anything useful about Luther. It is not the style that is at fault as much as it is the author of the internal observations, Erickson has no access to Luther's inner life. God can say whatever He wants about Cyrus's motivations, but that doesn't make it modern historical writings either.

sorry for the potential disrespect, it was not intended. Strong feelings about Erickson emerged....

ahh... that makes more sense! Had me worried there for a sec ;)
 
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Mallon

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4. Mallon, if the Scriptures were written as filtered through man's understanding, then we would not have passages such as "Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who spoke of the grace that was to come to you, searched intently and with the greatest care, trying to find out the time and circumstances to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when he predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow." 1 Peter 1:10-11.
Again, I acknowledge the divinely given foresight of prophesy. But... (1) Not every story in the Bible is prophesy, (2) even prophesy can be non-literal.
No, but history does. What we consider apocryphal books were not considered Scriptures by the Hebrews.
How do you know?
vossler said:
I don't really understand why this is seemingly so complicated. All Scripture plainly means everything that has been identified as Scripture even if at the time it hadn't yet been so identified
How do you know?
I have no problem with that one iota, it would appear you seem to not be so sure.
I might point out that even Luther was unsure about the inspiration of certain Scriptures. Why might that be?
I would say they weren't because much of the New Testament wasn't even complete yet or at least not in any sort of cohesive form. The Bible simply says "all Scripture" and since Scripture has been identified as the 66 books of the Bible then everything within it is to be considered Scripture.
Then what meaning would the 2 Tim passage have to those pre-Bible people???
laptoppop said:
Jesus valued the law down not to the concept or even the word, but down to the smallest jot and tittle -- detail.
How do you know?
Where you see cultural filtering, I see figures of speech. I refer to the sun rising and setting -- and yet I know better. It does not imply geocentrism, just a figure of speech.
Forgive me, but when the Bible repeatedly speaks of the "pillars of earth", the "foundation" of the earth, the "immovable" earth, and the sun that rises and sets and "rushes back again to the place from which it rises", the only meaning that is "plain" to me is a geocentric solar system. You believe otherwise. Why? Could it be that you have allowed science to shape your view of Scipture?
I do claim that the all-knowing all-powerful God directed the writing in a perfect way.
How do you know?
In terms of metaphor - don't confuse the medium with the message. Just because I might use a metaphor or illustration does not mean I lack understanding or that I am incorrect. It just doesn't affect this discussion at all.
The point you make about not confusing medium with message is the one I just made. And yet creationists, including yourself, continue to insist that Genesis cannot be true unless it's taken literally!

What I have seen so far is a bunch of people who insist that the Scriptures must be scientifically accurate, based on their preconviction that God whispered the very words into the ears of the Bible's authors. What I have not seen is Scriptural support for such an eisegetical view, despite repeated requests for such.
 
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chaoschristian

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Hey good to see you too, where have you been?

Sorta broke my CF rhythm, busy-ness and all that, but this discussion is good in that its gettin below sea level, if you will, and pearing at the underbelly of the iceberg.

Now there's a loaded question if there ever was one, :eek: but I like 'em like that and usually don't have a problem attempting to answer them. :D However, I don't claim any unique divine revelation or spiritual mysticism. :p

My apologies. That's the second time this week I used 'you' instead of 'one' since I meant it generally and not personally. I certainly wasn't accusing you of anything!

Since this is a general question I can only provide a general answer. Generally His intent, regardless of the subject, is always outlined in His Word. If we can't determine through prayer and Bible study then I believe we haven't prayed and/or looked hard enough.

Sounds familiar, and I think that's fine if one is dealing with one's own revelation of faith. But when it comes to something that spans across the ages and the nations, like scripture, does that really work? Do we know that the councils that determined the canon were inspired? By what reconning if so? And what of this thing we call 'The Bible'? How does it form and function effect our understanding of the message of scripture? Is it excerting undue influence?

I don't have answers to these questions, even if I have my leanings as to which direction I tend to go.

How do you determine His intent?

Pretty much as you do. Prayer. Study. Silence. Fasting. Worship. Even a clearness committee if the situation seems to warrent it. Listeng for that small, still voice that always seems to say the most unexpected things at the most inconvenient times.
 
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chaoschristian

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And yet the NT is 83% direct quote or paraphrase of hte OT... couldn't you consider that "referencing itself" ?

Or, perhaps to de-anthropomorphize this a bit, the authors were influenced by their context and relied heavily on the framework of the OT in order to make the most amount of sense to their intended audiences.

In others words, since the early church was occurring in a Jewish context the only way to related to others was through that context.
 
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rmwilliamsll

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And yet the NT is 83% direct quote or paraphrase of hte OT... couldn't you consider that "referencing itself" ?
i believe this is way too high. so,

do you have a reference for this 83%?

i found:
There are in all two hundred and eighty-three direct quotations from the Old Testament in the New Testament,
from: http://www.answers.com/topic/quotations-from-the-old-testament-in-the-new-testament

The citations from the Old Testament, as employed by the writers of the New Testament, constitute another example of variety in language presentation without the sacrifice of truth. A conservative estimate suggests there are some 295 references from the Old Testament in the New Testament. If one adds allusions as well, the estimates escalate from slightly over 600 to somewhat over 4,000 (depending upon the scholar)! About 10% of the New Testament, in some form, is taken from the Old Testament

from: http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_gospel_writers_and_their_quotations_from_jesus#fn2

so, can we have your source for this number? thanks.
 
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Gwenyfur

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vossler

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How do you know?
Faith, it's called faith my friend. :hug:
I might point out that even Luther was unsure about the inspiration of certain Scriptures. Why might that be?
I don't know, he's not available to ask. Why, do you have a theory?
Then what meaning would the 2 Tim passage have to those pre-Bible people???
The same it has for us. Everything they knew to be Scripture was God Breathed, just like us. ;)
 
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Mallon

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Faith, it's called faith my friend. :hug:
This is hardly an objective criterion for correction, though, don't you think?
I don't know, he's not available to ask. Why, do you have a theory?
Nope. Just seems curious that even the most scholarly theologian had difficulty assessing the divine inpiration of the Scriptures. So insisting that one's take on the matter, based solely on faith, is correct seems... unconvincing, to say the least.
The same it has for us. Everything they knew to be Scripture was God Breathed, just like us. ;)
Including non-canonical scripture? That's the question.
 
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