[OPEN] Israel and the Church??

[MattyJames]

Hi friends,

Just me gathering some opinions again.

I am trying to get myself to the bottom of this Israel and the Church thing.

As I see it, they are one. 'The Congregation of Israel', the Assembly, the Church, all the same word describeing the same group of people. Therefore, Israel (including the Jews) is the modern day church/ Congregation.

The problem I am trying to reconcile is this: we know that not Israel will be saved ie: Resurected with the righteous. So...which is which?? Is the Church purely the bride, that is the righteous that will meet the Lord in the air? I don't think so...but I hope you're getting my point.

Sorting out my theology...so I come to the Body for advice.

Thanks for your replies...

Matt James

 

[visionary]

A lot of people declare themselves a part of one group or another. God does not look at the names to know His own, but says that they hear His voice and follow Him. At the time of the statements were made in scripture it was describing a grouping in comparison to those around them. I personally do not hold much value in a title, name, if there is no or very little substance behind the claim.

 

[MattyJames]

A lot of people declare themselves a part of one group or another. God does not look at the names to know His own, but says that they hear His voice and follow Him. At the time of the statements were made in scripture it was describing a grouping in comparison to those around them. I personally do not hold much value in a title, name, if there is no or very little substance behind the claim.

But these are rather relevent titles wouldn't you think??

Dunno? I spose I've never thought about it like that??

MJ

 

[visionary]

I just find that this whole naming issue has become a issue in itself and takes away from walking in the truth. So many get caught up in getting under the right title, and are caught up what reasons they see for doing so, that they some times forget Yeshua in the process.

 

[Tishri1]

I believe we are only accountable for what we know, we are all responsible only for the light (revelation/Word/Torah) in us and will be judged accordingly...Some have more light, others less, and some have lots and are hiding it or not walking in it, even that is ABBA's business and not ours...that is why only he can see inside our hearts and be our judge in the end....



I believe there will be lots of Instruction (Torah) going on in the Millenium...

 

[debi b]

You might find this of interest:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2981315-the-ekklesia.html

What would seem to also be apart of this is there are two words that are translated interchangeably but I think has some importance. Kahal and Adat are both translated as congregation and assembly. Adat goes back to a root that means witness. Kahal goes back to a root that means gathering. There is a maturing process to my mind here.

Also, all were redeemed when they came out of Egypt - that was not enough. They needed to follow HIM and with simcha (joy).

In the wilderness they has nothing BUT Adonai. They needed to follow Him. But why with joy? Does this get at the idea that we can do things, but if there is no joy we maybe doing them without our whole heart? I think that is getting us in the right direction.

 

[Kalanit]

I think defining terms is necessary- sometimes terms change meaning over time. There are specific definitions and there are cultural definitions... certain words can mean the same thing, but imply totally different theological views.
An example: Some have said "what's the difference in a "Christian" and a "Messianic" - they mean the same thing! Well, technically, Christ and Messiah are 2 words from different languages that basically mean the same thing... but the culture that goes with the phrase "Christ" or "Christian" is way different than that of "Messiah"... and the theology varies quite a bit too!

I think our theologies are a bit different here..
I believe the physical Nation of Israel will turn to HaShem and cry out for Messiah Yeshua to come- at which point, the believers on earth will be caught up for supper D) and then come down to earth with Messiah to fight for Israel against all the nations that are trying to destroy her. Israel will mourn over Yeshua, but a great time of healing and cleansing will take place- and the entire Nation of Israel will be 'saved'... All will be set right again...

Beyond that, I'm not sure exactly what your theology is or what you are asking.

The believing Jews will be 'caught up' when the time comes... along with all other believers... Israel will witness the Salvation of G-d and the restoration of the land...

Maybe clarify a little bit ?

 

[Hadassah]

I believe we are only accountable for what we know, we are all responsible only for the light (revelation/Word/Torah) in us and will be judged accordingly...Some have more light, others less, and some have lots and are hiding it or not walking in it, even that is ABBA's business and not ours...that is why only he can see inside our hearts and be our judge in the end....



I believe there will be lots of Instruction (Torah) going on in the Millenium...

EXACTLY

You might find this of interest:

http://www.christianforums.com/t2981315-the-ekklesia.html

What would seem to also be apart of this is there are two words that are translated interchangeably but I think has some importance. Kahal and Adat are both translated as congregation and assembly. Adat goes back to a root that means witness. Kahal goes back to a root that means gathering. There is a maturing process to my mind here.

Also, all were redeemed when they came out of Egypt - that was not enough. They needed to follow HIM and with simcha (joy).

In the wilderness they has nothing BUT Adonai. They needed to follow Him. But why with joy? Does this get at the idea that we can do things, but if there is no joy we maybe doing them without our whole heart? I think that is getting us in the right direction.

Yes, alot better than any way I could phrase it right now

Ekklesia is synonymous with "congregation" which goes with "adat" which doesn't mean anything other than that..

One family, One tree, Two branches... same fruit, same root...

 

[MattyJames]

Ok...so we obviously don't agree with replacment theology...I don't know how anyone could .

The following is my thinking out loud.

What I'm trying to say is this...Is 'Israel' ony Spiritual? If so...it also leaves out the Unbelieveing Jews. If however it is not purely spiritual in its members, then maybe the Church is the Spiritual part of Israel...arrhh that doesn't make sence either.

I'm trying to reconcile how one can be a part of Israel, but not Believe in Messiah. Do we consider them as brothers?

OK...let me get the reason why I ask...I seen a lot of people refer the the Jews as 'brothers', even if they don't accept Messiah.

Now, I know that they are a part of Israel, because of birth lineage. But we would not consider them a part of the 'Church'? A part of the Body of Messiah.

So...can one be a part of Israel, whilest not being a part of the Body? Are they seperate?

Just some thinking.

Matt James

 

[MattyJames]

I believe we are only accountable for what we know, we are all responsible only for the light (revelation/Word/Torah) in us and will be judged accordingly...Some have more light, others less, and some have lots and are hiding it or not walking in it, even that is ABBA's business and not ours...that is why only he can see inside our hearts and be our judge in the end....



I believe there will be lots of Instruction (Torah) going on in the Millenium...

Yes I agree Tish. Well said.

But, If I can, I will add one more: we are also accountable for that which we do. Not just that which we know. For it is by the works that every one will be judged. Ecc 12:14.

My regards to you.

Matt James

 

[BarbB]

.....The following is my thinking out loud.

What I'm trying to say is this...Is 'Israel' ony Spiritual? If so...it also leaves out the Unbelieveing Jews. If however it is not purely spiritual in its members, then maybe the Church is the Spiritual part of Israel...arrhh that doesn't make sence either.

I'm trying to reconcile how one can be a part of Israel, but not Believe in Messiah. Do we consider them as brothers?

OK...let me get the reason why I ask...I seen a lot of people refer the the Jews as 'brothers', even if they don't accept Messiah.

Now, I know that they are a part of Israel, because of birth lineage. But we would not consider them a part of the 'Church'? A part of the Body of Messiah.

So...can one be a part of Israel, whilest not being a part of the Body? Are they seperate?

Just some thinking.

Matt James

Were you reading the notes from the Pentateuch and Haftorah? Because he referred to an obvious messianic reference in Isaiah 52 as spiritual Israel in the reading from a couple of weeks ago. I was like ....

Currently I believe that we are separate. We are part of the church - all born-again believers are no matter what denomination they belong to. Those Jews who do turn to Messiah Yeshua will be joined with us; currently I believe that it will be only about a 1/3 remnant of the Jews alive today. Of course that's higher than the estimated 1/7 percentage of people who are "born-again".

I didn't answer all your question. I consider the Jews and the country of Israel to be my brothers and sisters due to political sympathy. That's why I have I stand with my brothers and sisters in Israel! under my id.

 

[Sephania]

Hmm........ after reading through everyones reply this is what kept coming to mind.

:What did Yeshua say?

As the King he calls his people , those if Israel ( Jacob) brethren, but not just that, he calls them 'the least of these, my brethren'.

It brings much meaning to the righteous gentiles during the holocaust and Israel has recognized them as such, but they were only doing as Yeshua said to.

We are all ( belivers ) to call each other brothers, brethren, but he also recognizes his blood brothers as well AND judges the world by how it treats them, that is how the world is to b judged, by how they treat the JEws.

You cannot say you love Yeshua, and follow him if you do not, to those who don't he calls them cursed and tells them to depart from him.

 

[Hadassah]

The following is my thinking out loud.

What I'm trying to say is this...Is 'Israel' ony Spiritual? If so...it also leaves out the Unbelieveing Jews. If however it is not purely spiritual in its members, then maybe the Church is the Spiritual part of Israel...arrhh that doesn't make sence either.

I'm trying to reconcile how one can be a part of Israel, but not Believe in Messiah. Do we consider them as brothers?

OK...let me get the reason why I ask...I seen a lot of people refer the the Jews as 'brothers', even if they don't accept Messiah.

Try Romans 11 and 12 which go exactly with Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Y'shua talking about the House.

 

[MattyJames]

Yes...but Yeshua also said

Mat 12:50

For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother.

thinking...

MJ

 

[MattyJames]

Try Romans 11 and 12 which go exactly with Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Y'shua talking about the House.

mmmm...good point.

Thanks Antsy.

MJ

 

[MattyJames]

We are all ( belivers ) to call each other brothers, brethren, but he also recognizes his blood brothers as well AND judges the world by how it treats them, that is how the world is to b judged, by how they treat the JEws.

Can you provide some References??

MJ

 

[chunkofcoal]

Ok...so we obviously don't agree with replacment theology...I don't know how anyone could .

The following is my thinking out loud.

What I'm trying to say is this...Is 'Israel' ony Spiritual? If so...it also leaves out the Unbelieveing Jews. If however it is not purely spiritual in its members, then maybe the Church is the Spiritual part of Israel...arrhh that doesn't make sence either.

I'm trying to reconcile how one can be a part of Israel, but not Believe in Messiah. Do we consider them as brothers?

OK...let me get the reason why I ask...I seen a lot of people refer the the Jews as 'brothers', even if they don't accept Messiah.

Now, I know that they are a part of Israel, because of birth lineage. But we would not consider them a part of the 'Church'? A part of the Body of Messiah.

So...can one be a part of Israel, whilest not being a part of the Body? Are they seperate?

Just some thinking.

Matt James

"even if they don't accept Messiah" -

Joseph's brothers didn't recognize him either until he made himself known to them.

 

[debi b]

Is the question you are asking "who is my brother?"

It has troubled people before. And Yeshua did talk about that

 

[MattyJames]

"even if they don't accept Messiah" -

Joseph's brothers didn't recognize him either until he made himself known to them.

So...Messiah hasn't made himself known to the Jewish Nation??

Confused

MJ

 

[MattyJames]

Is the question you are asking "who is my brother?"

It has troubled people before. And Yeshua did talk about that

Yeshua delt with 'who is my neighbor'...but 'who is my brother'?? Are you refering to my above post of Matt 12:50??

Matt James