[OPEN]Head Covering - What are your thoughts. [OPEN]

[MattyJames]

Greetings to all,

Yes it is one of those boomerang subjects that will come around every now and again. So please bear with me. I'm looking for personal convictions and understandings, and definately some advice/ critisim if the Lord leads you so.

The question is: What are your thoughts as to the nesessity of head covering for women. What is the meaning of headcovering and Why do you cover/ not cover? For someone who is undecided on the issue, what agrument would you present that might 'tip the scales' so as to speak, to get them to either cover, or alternativly, not to cover.

As I mentioned in another post, I recently attended my first Synagoge service and noticed that the Reformed didn't head cover, but the Orthordox required it. We also visited friends at the time who view headcovering as compulsory and challaged my father and I basically stateing 'if you want to continue in fellowship, your women must headcover....'. Do you see it as an issue worth dividing over?

To be fair to the situation, my stance on headcovering is as follows: It is a personal decision. There is nothing 'against' it in the scriptures, but there is also no 'conclusive' evidence enstateing it as mandatory either. But it is without doubt infered as the norm in some biblical passages. If you wish to cover, then cover, if you wish not, then don't, letting every person be convicted by their own conscience.

My fear is that I am taking a comprimising attitude on a issue that is not optional.

Last but not least, give me some practicle reasons to why a women must cover. ie: modesty?

I look forward to your open and honest answers.

regards,

Matt James

 

[Sephania]

Yes, this subject comes up a lot.

I do not think any man should tell a woman she has to do this, because if that is why she is doing it , it defeats the purpose. And then you get into situations like the muslims and the burkas.

I think it should be something that she is convicted of by the L-RD . Some believe in covering when in prayer or among a group where prophecy may occur. I think in congregational meetings this should apply always. But then again I think that woman should worry more about covering the rest of their body first, and many don't.

I think the basis is modesty and headship.

Your body ( as a woman) belongs to your future or present husband and no one else. He is your head and if you aren't married then Yeshua is until then. This designates that.

Modesty first

No bare arms
No bare legs showing

no cleavage or even a hint of it
no tight clothing that outlines the figure so it is as if it were naked but only colored differently ( by the fabrics coloring)

No slits in skirts or dresses ( these are eye attractants)
No t-shirts with things written on them to draw the eyes towards the breast

Now I don't necessarly agree all hair must be covered as some do. To me that takes away that you are a woman and your hair is long to distinquish you from a man.

Paul speaks of G-ds creation and differentation of men and woman regarding hair ( see Torah's thread on beards too)

1 Cor 11:14 says:

Doth not even nature itelf teach you?

That if a man have long hair , it is a shame unto him? But if a waman have long hair, it is a glory to her, for her hair is given as a covering.

So many misinterpret that though to mean she doesn't have to put anything on top of that. But I see it as , she has long hair it should be seen as long hair, by others, thus proclaiming her womanhood, but she can also wear a covering like that which Jewish woman around the world use for candle lighting, it sits atop the hair but does not obscure it. It shows reverence for headship, but it can still be seen that it is a woman.


Like this:

http://www.headcoverings-by-devorah.com/WrapVeil4.jpg

Now I am not saying it has to be this, but for Shabbat, yes, for the week days, a scarf or headband or some token that represents this, not fashion.

Read this Torah obserrvant MJ - headcoverings

You can also find much info at Headcoverings by Devorah

The Mitzvah of covering the hair

Beneath the surface - A deeper look at modesty

 

[Sephania]

Here are some of my other links regarding modesty-covering

A Christian take
headcovering- Relationship between man and woman
Women's Headcoverings: A Messianic Viewpoint
A web page with other links about headcovering

Biblical modesty

Hope those help a little


~Z

 

[Hadassah]

On the other thread (Torah's one about beards) I posted the bulk of what I have on headcovering in link format.

The greek in 1 corinthians 11 shows that a woman wears a veil over her head to show the sign of authority. The word itself for veil means to cover and obscure from view.

The veil shows:

a) Honor to the Father and respect for the set order of mankind (same as a man's Kippa). This also allows one to show the respect and place she is in while ministering within the body of Messiah and in her community.
b) Honor to her father or to her husband, that she acknowledges him as her final authority on earth. He can yea or nay her vows, as well as her father can yea or nay who she marries. He protects her from spiritual as well as physical abuse... and is there as a "buffer" to things she doesn't understand about scripture
c) Modesty. In covering your hair, you reserve this crown and glory to you and your husband alone to glory in and to enjoy. This reserves you from any other man who may touch you, and especially from one who would dare to touch such a private (erotic) part of your body.

A woman who is seen unveiled, was traditionally a harlot/adulteress. She was to be taken to the priest with her husband and examined as a sotah. Her hair was to be uncovered, her beautiful braids taken down and she was to be laid bare in this manner to shame her, as she had shamed her husband.

in history we are shown that women who unveil themselves are usually after a feminist goal. Up until about the 1930s-1950s, it was practically unheard of for a woman to leave her home without her hat, let alone to go to church (or synagogue) without her hat.

Same in the roman and greek days. the women veiled themselves, unless they were feminists and seeking to upset the set order of men as the head of the house.

 

[Hadassah]

And I agree that men shouldn't be the ones to nessisarily tell a woman she needs to cover, as this would fall into the admonitions within Timothy and Titus (where Paul is reiterating how the congregations should work as a sort of midrash from the torah); where we are told the older women are to teach the younger.

However, if there are no older women to instruct the younger, I can totally understand why the "Grey heads" (the older men) in the synagogue approached you and your father. You are the authority of the home and deserve the respect and honor that affords, as do the women of your home by being modest and shamefaced.

I guess maybe some of the things I hold are some from what I learned while under the mennonite teaching when I was being homeschooled, but I bucked it then. I didn't start headcovering until I started attending synagogue and started learning Torah. I learned Torah a little and saw the need for headcovering and went 100% in that direction from thenceforth.

 

[MattyJames]

Theres alot to read, thanks. I'll try and go through it all.

One thing. To one who has never been brought up in a Head covering house, the idea that a head covering is a sign of submission to the covering/ authority of man is had to grasp. In my house, when Dad speaks, its final, and all the Girls know that Dad is the Priest and Head of our house. I'm struggleing to see what further meaning the head covering will add in that area.

any help?

thanks again,

Matt James

 

[Hadassah]

Matt,

I wasn't brought up in a headcovering house (I know, what a shock ), I came into it on my own.

The basics I had from scripture, and I'm still learning.

For me, knowing I have a headcovering makes me more consious when I leave the house about people who see me out there in the "real world".

whether I lived in a community or not, I know I am very conspicuous because of my coverings (example: www.tznius.com or www.modestworld.com). Most folks out here ask me first if I'm muslim. I give the easy out of no, I am Jewish and if they're interested any further I explain further. Unfortunately though, most people don't care to know more unless they see you more than once, then they'll strike up the conversation more.

I wear mine full time, either a hat, the mennonite capp (like on my cf character), or the scarves - whether the big ones from the Jewish tznius sites or the smaller ones I've found around in Walmart and Kmart and the like.

I know people watch me, and it makes me very consious of the things I say and do around folks. For me, the most frustrating thing is the redneck folks that have no clue who assume I'm muslim and treat me ill. .. or the people at the restaurants when I specify no pork (Birmingham is pork-centrum) they still bring it on my plate sometimes "accidentally" - which makes me out to be the bad guy when I have to send it back and make sure they get it right.

Of the women at my congregation, there are very few who cover, let alone anyone other than me covering full time. The only time I don't cover is in the house - except my last visit to Germany where I wore a few hats and other than that didn't really have any options due to the way the muslim women were seemingly copying the same scarf styles that the Orthodox and myself wear.

Advice I would give is to take it slow, and start investigating the scriptures and history, and be open to change.

There used to be a great website out on the internet by Renee Ellison called "Headcovering: scarf of hidden power" or something very similar - and if you can find that lady's writing you will find a wealth of information and scripture and history to draw from. I think there's a PDF file out there somewhere and i know she's got a small book that is being offered on some websites. . . I just can't remember where right now that I saw it.

There are many websites that have forums (including on yahoo) that are messianic and headcovering related... as well as the many women here in the MJ forum who also cover.

The Orthodox also have a wealth of information about headcovering that is very interesting and I have drawn much strength from.

It helps to have some folks to lean on when you don't have many who understand the concept let alone enjoy the benefits that come from covering.

I think feminism has given much where we lost the 'rights' that women had already within the scriptural community, but then again it took so much away and it is still taking much away

 

[Bernergirl]

I wear a head covering when I pray (which Paul said to do constantly... therefore I wear a headcovering constantly... )

I have a few long scarves that I wear regularly and a black cap that looks kind of like an oversized yarmulke that I wear on more formal occasions.

Someone in the Reformed forum pointed out to me that the Greek in 1 Corinthians is directed at wives (the word used for women can be translated wives) rather than women in general, but I feel like it is something my conscience is telling me to do for God.

I, too, have been mistaken for a hijabi woman on occasion... I simply say, "No, I'm Christian..."

God bless,

Lissa

 

[Tpolg]

As it is a matter of respect and honor, not abomination, I would feel comfortable worshiping with women that did not cover. Although I prefer that they did.
I would of course insist that my wife and daughters covered, simply because that is what the scriptures admonish. Personally I am partial to the babushka, 100% cotton in summer, and 100% wool in the winter. But what ever you have is better then nothing.

 

[Bananna]

As it is a matter of respect and honor, not abomination, I would feel comfortable worshiping with women that did not cover. Although I prefer that they did.
I would of course insist that my wife and daughters covered, simply because that is what the scriptures admonish. Personally I am partial to the babushka, 100% cotton in summer, and 100% wool in the winter. But what ever you have is better then nothing.

I cover about all the time for convinience.

I beleive wmen and men should cover their heads when in public and when praying... but that is a whole 28 page lesson.


Anyhow it took me a long time to learn how to keep a scarf on my head, but I've always understood that women should do all possible to avoid detracting from the focus on Torah.

I now just feel safer out there with my hair covered. Once this last year ran out of the house half asleep to get my daughter to her appointment and forgot my scarf and felt like my underwear was showing the whole time... LOL
bananna

bananna

 

[MattyJames]

Torahs Thread on beards?? Can someone show me please?

thanks,

MJ

 

[Tpolg]

Women should veil their faces by using their hands to cover thier face also when leading in prayer. Men should raise up their face and not "veil" their face when leading in prayer.

Why is this?

 

[Amora]

as this is an "open" thread, Ill just give a very short brief, as to what the orthodox do.

its not "men telling women" to cover thier hair. its halacha. Just like man pray 3x a day, and women goto mikveh, and any other mizvot we do. if a women keeps shabbat, then thier is no difference regarding hair covering.

Hair covering IS in the Talmud, and IS derived from the Bible. Its pretty clear that women DO need to cover their hair, at the least with a netlike covering thay gathers the hair up - that seems to be "medioriatah" or "law from the torah".

Chazal did broaden the law to cover (no pun...) also covering all the hair.

Thier are differences of opinion regarding exactly HOW MUCH needs to be covered. I.e. ALL, can one leave the front part showing, the back part etc. In the house vs outside. Also argumants regarding wigs, ARE they OK, or not.

My wife covers most of her hair, all the time, outside the house, and also in the house when we have guests.


I have no say in the matter.


None.

re beards, I dont know where that thread is, but thats a very different issue. not halachic at all.

 

[Torah]

Torahs Thread on beards?? Can someone show me please?

thanks,

MJ

http://www.christianforums.com/t3912365-men-with-beards-[open].html

 

[Hadassah]

matty, I'm sorry, it was a different thread I had posted about headcovering on. Instead of spamming by reposting everything I'll link to it.

USA Today (A magazine/news paper) ran an article about women, modesty and headcovering and I posted it and then some links on page three.

http://www.christianforums.com/t3905885

 

[Bananna]

Now why are head coverings Halacha and Beards not...HMMMMMMM

bananna

 

[Hadassah]

probably because we don't grow veils from out the side of our heads?

just a guess... it's "nature" to grow a beard. However, we've been so conditioned about veiling/not veiling, it would have to be halachah if you think about it... and each community would have a way they veil for uniformity, especially in Europe and the East... because of Steitel life.

In fact, the clothes and headcoverings for both men and women were dictated for many years by the outside, to keep us seperate from everyone else.

 

[Bananna]

So for some the halacha would be to shave or not to shave???

hmmmm?
bananna

 

[plum]

I seem to be the only woman so far in this thread who will say that she doesn't cover though I respect the decisions made either way.

 

[Hadassah]

So for some the halacha would be to shave or not to shave???

hmmmm?
bananna

For some orthodox it is.. I've met some that it's ok to shave, just not all of it off.. for some it's only to clean up the beard so it's not scraggly (hint: not like Castro or mr. crazy man in Iran)... and for some it's no shaving, no cutting, no trimming...

For other people.. "ah, who cares! It's your face..."


What was that saying about us in one room and opinions?