oooh I wish I had come aross this last week. For DD2008

[DD2008]

Those Christians who Mama Z said were led astray whose judgment you are prepared to rely on unreservedly when it comes to the canon of Scripture already exhibited quite explicitly the Catholic doctrines and practices which Protestants have always rejected.

Examples oF Christians who were presant when the final Canon of scripture was finalized.

Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy vessel; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"
Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127


"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground."
Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11(A.D. 379),in MFC,167

"If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead. If anyone should assert that He passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not at once divinely and humanly formed in her (divinely, because without the intervention of a man; humanly, because in accordance with the laws of gestation), he is in like manner godless."
Gregory of Nazianzen,To Cledonius, Epistle 101(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VII:439

Protestants love Mary as the Mother of Christ who is God incarnate. So calling her the Mother of God incarnate is theologically correct.

Calling her blessed as the Mother of Chirst is simply scriptural. We all do that. We also all think that the Magnificat is a great scripture to learn from.

Just because people only pray to God and refuse to bow to statues and think that practice is out of bounds doesn't mean that they are anti-Mary.

Our true statement is this: All who pray to anyone other than God are acting in error. It's not the respect of a person or the following the example of a person that is wrong. It is the imparting of faith to that individual through prayer that that departed soul might interceed for you with God, when scripture is clear that we are to pray to God and that Christ is our one mediator and the Holy Spirit interceeds for us because we don't know how to pray as we ought. When we follow the example of how to pray that Christ gave us we pray to God.

 

[Trento]

Our true statement is this: All who pray to anyone other than God are acting in error. It's not the respect of a person or the following the example of a person that is wrong. It is the imparting of faith to that individual through prayer that that departed soul might interceed for you with God, when scripture is clear that we are to pray to God and that Christ is our one mediator and the Holy Spirit interceeds for us because we don't know how to pray as we ought. When we follow the example of how to pray that Christ gave us we pray to God.

These men and others whom I don't have room for here were presant at the finalization of The Canon yet they show to us by their example Saints intercession.


" Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep(a) has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel."
John Chrysostom,On the Death of his Father,Oration 18:4(A.D. 374),in NPNF2,VII:255-256




"Futhermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead,how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master...Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf...For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God's mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them..."
Epiphanius,Panarion,75:8(A.D. 377),in JUR,II:75-76

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,23:9(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:154

 

[DD2008]

These men and others whom I don't have room for here were presant at the finalization of The Canon yet they show to us by their example Saints intercession.


" Thus might you console us; but what of the flock? Would you first promise the oversight and leadership of yourself, a man under whose wings we all would gladly repose, and for whose words we thirst more eagerly than men suffering from thirst for the purest fountain? Secondly, persuade us that the good shepherd who laid down his life for the sheep(a) has not even now left us; but is present, and tends and guides, and knows his own, and is known of his own, and, though bodily invisible, is spiritually recognized, and defends his flock against the wolves, and allows no one to climb over into the fold as a robber and traitor; to pervert and steal away, by the voice of strangers, souls under the fair guidance of the truth. Aye, I am well assured that his intercession is of more avail now than was his instruction in former days, since he is closer to God, now that he has shaken off his bodily fetters, and freed his mind from the clay which obscured it, and holds intercourse naked with the nakedness of the prime and purest Mind; being promoted, if it be not rash to say so, to the rank and confidence of an angel."
John Chrysostom,On the Death of his Father,Oration 18:4(A.D. 374),in NPNF2,VII:255-256




"Futhermore, as to mentioning the names of the dead,how is there anything very useful in that? What is more timely or more excellent than that those who are still here should believe that the departed do live, and that they have not retreated into nothingness, but that they exist and are alive with the Master...Useful too is the prayer fashioned on their behalf...For we make commemoration of the just and of sinners: of sinners, begging God's mercy for them; of the just and the Fathers and Patriarchs and Prophets and Apostles and Evangelists and martyrs and confessors, and of bishops and solitaries, and of the whole list of them..."
Epiphanius,Panarion,75:8(A.D. 377),in JUR,II:75-76

"Then we commemorate also those who have fallen asleep before us, first Patriarchs, Prophets, Apostles, Martyrs, that at their prayers and intercessions God would receive our petition. Then on behalf also of the Holy Fathers and Bishops who have fallen asleep before us, and in a word of all who in past years have fallen asleep among us, believing that it will be a very great benefit to the souls, for whom the supplication is put up, while that holy and most awful sacrifice is set forth."
Cyril of Jerusalem,Catechetical Lectures,23:9(A.D. 350),in NPNF2,VII:154

They were wrong, and they finalized the wrong canon. We had to have a reformation of the Church to be shed of their errors. Nowhere in scriputure does it ever tell us it is ok for us ot pray to anyone other than God.

 

[Rick Otto]

God also used Balaam's ass to speak truth.
Worship The Truth, not the ass.

.

 

[Trento]

They were wrong, and they finalized the wrong canon. We had to have a reformation of the Church to be shed of their errors. Nowhere in scriputure does it ever tell us it is ok for us ot pray to anyone other than God.

Josephus and theEncyclopedia Judaica, annilates the defence of the sustainibility of the Protestant OT Canon in the light of this history. Protestants join the rabbinical assembly that inserted an additional prayer [the 11th] into the Shemoneh Ezreh, the Eighteen Benedictions, of the synagogue liturgy which explicitly cursed the Christians [”And for the heretics and Nazoreans may there be no hope.

 

[simonthezealot]

God also used Balaam's ass to speak truth.
Worship The Truth, not the ass.

QFT

 

[christianmomof3]

.God also used Balaam's ass to speak truth.
Worship The Truth, not the ass.

That is a good point.
God can speak through whoever or whatever He wants to speak through but He does not necessarily want us to revere His microphones.

I asked over in GT where the concept is from that if we agree with one thing a person said it means we must agree with all of them and I guess it must be a logical fallacy.

Just because those brothers recognized the truth in the Bible does not mean that everything they said or did was correct or that we should agree with it.

I accept the declaration of independance of the USA as a valid historical document but I don't know all the beliefs or teachings of all it's authors nor do I care or need to agree with them just because I think that one document is valid.

I agree with some things that President Obama has said but I sure don't agree with all of them.

I have seen some statements by Karl Marx that I agree with - but I sure don't agree with communism.

Just because we agree with some things that someone said or says does not mean we agree with all of them.

 

[DD2008]

Josephus and theEncyclopedia Judaica, annilates the defence of the sustainibility of the Protestant OT Canon in the light of this history. Protestants join the rabbinical assembly that inserted an additional prayer [the 11th] into the Shemoneh Ezreh, the Eighteen Benedictions, of the synagogue liturgy which explicitly cursed the Christians [”And for the heretics and Nazoreans may there be no hope.

2 Corinthians 3:14-16
[14] But their minds were hardened; for to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away.
[15] Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds;
[16] but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.


Just because the Jews don't know what the scriptures mean doesn't mean the christians don't.

We know what they mean because we know Christ. His sheep hear his voice. It doesn't matter if the book was handed to you by a Jew or an Athiest professor. If God inspired it his sheep hear his voice.