oooh I wish I had come aross this last week. For DD2008

[benedictaoo]

Well I imagine there is a huge difference between feigning worship, worshipping as a façade or for show, or worshipping some other god but calling it the true God...

and...

worshipping something other than the true God straight up.

I don't see how your example explains your position. Can you elaborate on it?

I supposed mentioning Latria, Dulia and Hyperdulia won't have an impact on your opinion, huh?

Latria vs. Dulia and Hyperdulia

Latria is sacrificial in character, and may be offered only to God.

Catholics offer other degrees of reverence to the Blessed Virgin Mary and to the Saints; these non-sacrificial types of reverence are called Hyperdulia and Dulia, respectively.

Hyperdulia is essentially a heightened degree of dulia provided only to the Blessed Virgin.

This distinction, written about as early as Augustine of Hippo and St Jerome, was detailed more explicitly by Thomas Aquinas in his Summa Theologiae, A.D. 1270, II II, 84, 1: "Reverence is due to God on account of His Excellence, which is communicated to certain creatures not in equal measure, but according to a measure of proportion; and so the reverence which we pay to God, and which belongs to latria, differs from the reverence which we pay to certain excellent creatures; this belongs to dulia, and we shall speak of it further on (II II 103 3)";

in this next article St. Thomas Aquinas writes: "Wherefore dulia, which pays due service to a human lord, is a distinct virtue from latria, which pays due service to the Lordship of God. It is, moreover, a species of observance, because by observance we honor all those who excel in dignity, while dulia properly speaking is the reverence of servants for their master, dulia being the Greek for servitude."

From St. Thomas it is apparent that a clear distinction exists among latria and forms of dulia within Catholic theology

 

[benedictaoo]

The devil can not get to any of Gods Children for greater is HE that is in me that he that is in the world.

But Christ had not died on the cross yet. While in her womb she praised God for her salvation and said her soul magnified God's... and said He had done great things to her.

read Rev again... becuase you are ignoring much of the scriptures presented.

You asked for it and I gave it.

And there were given to the woman two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the desert unto her place, where she is nourished for a time and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

and Gensis 3 15- this woman

15 I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

is this women

1 And a great sign appeared in heaven: A woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars:

and is this woman..

John 2

3And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine.

4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come.

5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

Just think of the wine failing at the wedding feast- as our own faith that is sometimes put to the test.

what did Jesus say?

Pray that you do not undergo the test- the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Mary lifts up in to Christ in prayers.

 

[benedictaoo]

I have to disagree with what you have written in the above post. Because With the full counsel of the written word This is not the conclusion as to what the scriptures bring us to.

okay what conclusion do they bring then?

 

[christianmomof3]

I guess everyone missed the point.

The part where we find her in tortillas and grilled cheese sandwiches, besides it being hilarious, the video was to show you what is extreme false veneration and what is true veneration.

The latter is authentic, the former is extreme.

and the Church does not agree that Mary appeared in tortillas and grill cheese. lol.

Well, I am glad that you don't think that Mary appears in the grilled cheese (and I thought it was supposed to be Jesus on the toast anyway) , but then who are all the people praying to the images of Jesus and Mary in tree bark and stains on underpasses and chocolate drippings?

And, the video presents the immaculate conception concept which is a post-biblical Catholic only thing with no Biblical support and the assumption of Mary stuff which again is not in the Bible and is only a Catholic belief.

I found the video to show accurately the RCC beliefs and I still think those beliefs are unbiblical.

 

[benedictaoo]

Well, I am glad that you don't think that Mary appears in the grilled cheese (and I thought it was supposed to be Jesus on the toast anyway) , but then who are all the people praying to the images of Jesus and Mary in tree bark and stains on underpasses and chocolate drippings?

those ppl sound like they have issues.

And, the video presents the immaculate conception concept which is a post-biblical Catholic only thing with no Biblical support and the assumption of Mary stuff which again is not in the Bible and is only a Catholic belief.

I found the video to show accurately the RCC beliefs and I still think those beliefs are unbiblical.

In spite of the scripture given that show the beliefs?

It may help for all to know that when the pope makes something a dogma he is not legislating dogma from out the blue.

he is just putting to rest what has been debated in the Church since the beginning. he declare it to protect the faithful from error or becuase heresy threatens what is doctrine. It has always been a doctrine, just not a dogma.

The Church from day one always believed Mary to be sinless from her conception- the pope raised it to a dogma to put to rest the debates over it and to protect the doctrine from heresy.

as we can see Luther believed it long before it was a dogma of the Church so the proves it was always believed. and the ECF wrote about it to.

Luther:

It is a sweet and pious belief that the infusion of Mary’s soul was effected without original sin; so that in the very infusion of her soul she was also purified from original sin and adorned with God’s gifts, receiving a pure soul infused by God; thus from the first moment she began to live she was free from all sin" (Sermon: "On the Day of the Conception of the Mother of God," 1527).

She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin—something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {"Little"} Prayer Book, 1522).

Early Church Fathers

Immaculate Conception

"He was the ark formed of incorruptible wood. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, immaculate of the immaculate, one of the one."
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

"Let woman praise Her, the pure Mary."
Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother."
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

"Mary, a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin."
Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

"We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins, out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135

"As he formed her without my stain of her own,so He proceeded from her contracting no stain."
Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied, holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

"The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made."
Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary."
Jacob of Sarug(ante A.D. 521),in CE

"She is born like the cherubim, she who is of a pure, immaculate clay" Theotoknos of Livias,Panegyric for the feast of the Assumption, 5:6(ante A.D. 650),in THEO,180

"Today humanity, in all the radiance of her immaculate nobility, receives its ancient beauty. The shame of sin had darkened the splendour and attraction of human nature; but when the Mother of the Fair One par excellence is born, this nature regains in her person its ancient privileges and is fashioned according to a perfect model truly worthy of God.... The reform of our nature begins today and the aged world, subjected to a wholly divine transformation, receives the first fruits of the second creation"
Andrew of Crete,Sermon I,On the Birth of Mary(A.D. 733),in THEO,180

"[T]ruly elect, and superior to all,not by the altitude of lofty structures, but as ecelling all in the greatness and purity of sublime and divine virtues, and having no affinity with sin whatever."
Germanus of Constantinople,Marracci in S. Germani Mariali(ante A.D. 733),in ULL,98

"O most blessed loins of Joachim from which came forth a spotless seed! O glorious womb of Anne in which a most holy offspring grew."
John of Damascus,Homily I in Nativ.(ante A.D. 749),in THEO,200

This is not a new unbiblical invention. It is the faith of the earliest Christians.

 

[christianmomof3]

those ppl sound like they have issues.
I agree, but when you see them on the news clutching their baseball card of Mary and telling how the dripped chocolate Mary renewed their faith, they are claiming to be members of the RCC.
In spite of the scripture given that show the beliefs?
Yep. There are no scriptures that ever show anyone ever praying to anyone except for God and there are no scriptures ever telling anyone to pray to anyone except for to God and there are no scriptures showing anyone praying to Mary.
It may help for all to know that when the pope makes something a dogma he is not legislating dogma from out the blue.

he is just putting to rest what has been debated in the Church since the beginning. he declare it to protect the faithful from error or becuase heresy threatens what is doctrine. It has always been a doctrine, just not a dogma.

The Church from day one always believed Mary to be sinless from her conception- the pope raised it to a dogma to put to rest the debates over it and to protect the doctrine from heresy.

as we can see Luther believed it long before it was a dogma of the Church so the proves it was always believed. and the ECF wrote about it to.

Luther:


Early Church Fathers





This is not a new unbiblical invention. It is the faith of the earliest Christians.

Even the earliest Christians were lead astray by false teachings. Both Paul and John wrote letters to them warning them not to listen to false teachers. Just because early Christians may have held those beliefs does not make them correct and they are not in the Bible.

 

[MamaZ]

But Christ had not died on the cross yet. While in her womb she praised God for her salvation and said her soul magnified God's... and said He had done great things to her.

Mary was saved by the same Grace that any man is saved by. But her faith had to be in the Chosen one.. Christ her savior.. She carried Christ in her pysically and Spiritually..

read Rev again... becuase you are ignoring much of the scriptures presented.

I love the book of Revelation.. The woman is not Mary though. Revelation has to deal with the Jewish nations. There are two women.. The bond and the free. We read about this in Galatians.

You asked for it and I gave it.



and Gensis 3 15- this woman

is this women

and is this woman..

John 2

Just think of the wine failing at the wedding feast- as our own faith that is sometimes put to the test.

what did Jesus say?

Pray that you do not undergo the test- the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak.

Mary lifts up in to Christ in prayers.

Mary can't lift up Christ.. For she is not here to do so. She is clothed in her heavinly home awaiting the ressurection of He body. Heaven is a place where all are praising and glorifying God. Not a place where grief and sorrows come to those who have run the race and now are at the finish line. Home safe.

 

[MamaZ]

okay what conclusion do they bring then?

Will get back to this so please have patience with me.

 

[MamaZ]

The devil was angry becuase He could not get to her.. she was not his.


None of Gods children are his


and Mary said her soul reflects the Lord... and that God had saved her. Christ was in her womb, not on the cross. So how was she saved and reflecting the spirit of God?

Because she had Christ in her physically and her hope was in Him. For He was who was promised that the OT believers were waiting for.. Remember the scripture where we read the Holy Spirit overshadowed her? Just as when Elizebeth and Mary came together and Elizebeth and the baby who was John were baptized in the Holy Spirit. They looked forward to the cross and we look backwards to the Cross.. But the cross is the focal point of all salvation.

and she also said that God has done great things to her.


Yes He did do great things for her and to her.. God has done great things unto me and for me. This is a blessing that all children of God have..
Eph 1:3 Blessed is the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenlies with Christ,


and in the beginning we see God promising to put enmity between Eve and Mary.
You will have to expound on this a little more for me to understand what you are saying here..

and we know the women in revelation 12 is the women in Genesis because what did Christ call His mother? Woman.

I am sorry but this makes no scriptual sense to me.

 

[benedictaoo]

Mary can't lift up Christ.. For she is not here to do so. She is clothed in her heavinly home awaiting the ressurection of He body. Heaven is a place where all are praising and glorifying God. Not a place where grief and sorrows come to those who have run the race and now are at the finish line. Home safe.

I'm sorry, It meant to say she lifts us up to Christ in prayer.

and if she can't- then I can't either and this whole ting is just a sham.

There is not 'dead' in heaven, all are living in Christ up there.

John says that when see Him we will be like Him. We Will have a full share in His life.

Here we only have a partial share becuase we are not yet sanctified, with Him face to face.

We can pray and interceded here and we only do so by faith, not sight. Why wouldn't we do so when we are in heaven, face to face with God?

Praying for ppl whether on earth or in haven is about partaking in the divine nature as Peter said.

But then I suppoed you will tell me that's not biblical, in spite of the fact that I used scripture...

 

[benedictaoo]

I am sorry but this makes no scriptual sense to me.

it makes perfect sense to me. and your answers to the verse.. wow. you are ignoring that all generations shall call her blessed and Liz said she was blessed among women- she is far greater blessed than you or me.

 

[DD2008]

I've studied Mariology before. I reject it and believe that we should only pray to God. It is fine to call her blessed and learn from her example in scripture to the glory of God. However, when one starts praying to her and parading her statue around and bowing before it one is crossing a line. All glory and honor go to God alone.

All apparitions should be tried against scripture as well.

Watch this video. The embedding is disabled so you have to click the link.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QnGuuVR9JYw

 

[Trento]

Even the earliest Christians were lead astray by false teachings. Both Paul and John wrote letters to them warning them not to listen to false teachers. Just because early Christians may have held those beliefs does not make them correct and they are not in the Bible.

Yet The same Christians who you say were led astray whose judgment you are prepared to rely on unreservedly when it comes to the canon of Scripture already exhibited quite explicitly the Catholic doctrines and practices which Protestants have always rejected.

 

[DD2008]

Yet The same Christians who you say were led astray whose judgment you are prepared to rely on unreservedly when it comes to the canon of Scripture already exhibited quite explicitly the Catholic doctrines and practices which Protestants have always rejected.

Actually we get our Old Testament from the Jews. The OT Canon is the only difference between us. You have 7 apocryphal books added to yours plus additions to Daniel and Esther.

We have the Classic Hebrew Canon plus the New Testament that is universally agreed upon to be the authentic scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by the Apostles themselves.

 

[Trento]

Actually we get our Old Testament from the Jews. The OT Canon is the only difference between us. You have 7 apocryphal books added to yours plus additions to Daniel and Esther.

We have the Classic Hebrew Canon plus the New Testament that is universally agreed upon to be the authentic scriptures inspired by the Holy Spirit and written by the Apostles themselves.

This does not deal with the early Christians who were involved in the table of contents of scripture and their practices.
All revealed truth is to be found in the inspired Scriptures. However, this is quite useless unless we know which books are meant by the inspired Scriptures.
The theory we are considering, when it talks of inspired Scriptures, means in fact those 66 books which are bound and published in Protestant Bibles. For convenience we shall refer to them from now on simply as "the 66 books."
The precise statement of the theory we are examining thus becomes All revealed truth is to be found in the 66 books.
It is a fact that nowhere in the 66 books themselves can we find any statements telling us which books make up the entire corpus of inspired Scripture. There is no complete list of inspired books anywhere within their own pages, nor can such a list be compiled by putting isolated verses together.
The very foundation of all Protestant Christianityis neither found in Scripture nor can be deduced from Scripture in any way. Since the 66 books are not even identified in Scripture, much less can any further information about them (e.g., that all revealed truth is contained in them) be found there.

 

[DD2008]

This does not deal with the early Christians who were involved in the table of contents of scripture and their practices.
All revealed truth is to be found in the inspired Scriptures. However, this is quite useless unless we know which books are meant by the inspired Scriptures.
The theory we are considering, when it talks of inspired Scriptures, means in fact those 66 books which are bound and published in Protestant Bibles. For convenience we shall refer to them from now on simply as "the 66 books."
The precise statement of the theory we are examining thus becomes All revealed truth is to be found in the 66 books.
It is a fact that nowhere in the 66 books themselves can we find any statements telling us which books make up the entire corpus of inspired Scripture. There is no complete list of inspired books anywhere within their own pages, nor can such a list be compiled by putting isolated verses together.
The very foundation of all Protestant Christianityis neither found in Scripture nor can be deduced from Scripture in any way. Since the 66 books are not even identified in Scripture, much less can any further information about them (e.g., that all revealed truth is contained in them) be found there.

John 1:1
[1] In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 Timothy 3:16-17
[16] All scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,
[17] that the man of God may be complete, equipped for every good work.

John 10:27
[27] My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me;

1 Corinthians 2:14
[14] The unspiritual man does not receive the gifts of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.


The Bible is the written word of God. It is spiritual in nature because in the reading of it one is listening to the Word of God. His sheep hear his voice and know it. So the things of the spirit are known to the spiritual.

That is how we know what books belong in the canon. God has preserved the bible for us by using his followers to do it. They heard his voice and discerned the truth. We hear it today when we read the inspired books of scripture.

 

[MamaZ]

I'm sorry, It meant to say she lifts us up to Christ in prayer.

Well this is a belief that can not be proven by scripture. She is as I said clothed in her heavenly home and therefore not here among us in order to lift us up anywhere. She is with the angels in Heaven praising God.

and if she can't- then I can't either and this whole ting is just a sham.

Sure you can for you are with the people down here on earth and not up in the heavens where all things are focused there and not down here.. She is in a different rhelm of Gods creation. There is no sorrow in the heavenlies.. It is all joy and peace and rest.

There is not 'dead' in heaven, all are living in Christ up there.

But they are seperated due to the fact of they are in the heavens and we are on earth. We are down here fighting to good fight. She is an perfect peace with Her God..

John says that when see Him we will be like Him. We Will have a full share in His life.

But we will see Him as He really is.. None of us know what that is quite yet for we only know Him for as much as He has revealed Himself unto us.

Here we only have a partial share becuase we are not yet sanctified, with Him face to face.

We can pray and interceded here and we only do so by faith, not sight. Why wouldn't we do so when we are in heaven, face to face with God?

Because why would those whom have went on into their eternal rest be burdened with all the pain and sorrow here on earth? God has wiped away all their tears..

Praying for ppl whether on earth or in haven is about partaking in the divine nature as Peter said.

You may have to show me the scripture you are speaking about here.

But then I suppoed you will tell me that's not biblical, in spite of the fact that I used scripture...

Being biblical is not that one uses scripture. Being biblical means it lines up with the full scriptures.. For the scriptures are there to teach us truth. As a whole.. Not just to pick scripture out of the bible out of the context that they are written in..

 

[Rick Otto]

Yet The same Christians who you say were led astray whose judgment you are prepared to rely on unreservedly when it comes to the canon of Scripture already exhibited quite explicitly the Catholic doctrines and practices which Protestants have always rejected.

God also used Balaam's ass to speak truth.
Worship The Truth, not the ass.

 

[Rick Otto]

But then I suppoed you will tell me that's not biblical, in spite of the fact that I used scripture...

LOL,... it's the way you use it.

 

[Trento]

That is how we know what books belong in the canon. God has preserved the bible for us by using his followers to do it. They heard his voice and discerned the truth. We hear it today when we read the inspired books of scripture.

Those Christians who Mama Z said were led astray whose judgment you are prepared to rely on unreservedly when it comes to the canon of Scripture already exhibited quite explicitly the Catholic doctrines and practices which Protestants have always rejected.

Examples oF Christians who were presant when the final Canon of scripture was finalized.

Whoever honors the Lord also honors the holy vessel; who instead dishonors the holy vessel also dishonors his Master. Mary herself is that holy Virgin, that is, the holy vessel"
Epiphanius,Panarion,78:21(A.D. 377),in MFC,127


"Recalling these and other circumstances and imploring the Virgin Mary to bring assistance, since she, too, was a virgin and had been in danger, she entrusted herself to the remedy of fasting and sleeping on the ground."
Gregory of Nazianzen, Oration 24:11(A.D. 379),in MFC,167

"If anyone does not believe that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is severed from the Godhead. If anyone should assert that He passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not at once divinely and humanly formed in her (divinely, because without the intervention of a man; humanly, because in accordance with the laws of gestation), he is in like manner godless."
Gregory of Nazianzen,To Cledonius, Epistle 101(A.D. 382),in NPNF2,VII:439