Only way?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 8, 2016

ScottA said:
Yes, in a manner of speaking. That is...just as we endure time, which is not, we also endure eternity, which is. But only the rebellion, the followers of Satan, shall burn.

What about people? Will they cease to exist or not? What exactly happens to them? Who weren't born of the Spirit.

Just_a_Joe · Oct 8, 2016

mark kennedy said:
First of all there is one requirement for salvation, it's the righteousness of God in Christ, to receive this new nature, you must be born again. That said, God makes his divine attributes and eternal nature known to every soul that comes into the world. The ancient Jews had the Law which were the Oracle's of God so early Christian in Rome thought themselves superior to Gentile believers. Paul tells the the Gentile who do not have the Law do by nature the things in the Law become a law unto themselves. Its called the law of conscience and God judges us all by exposing our hidden motives, matter of conscience. You are only responsible for what light you have, the only ones rejected and burned at final judgment are the children of perdition. There has to be a time of decision and if you never heard the gospel you are not held responsible. Everyone not raised at the return of Christ are judged after the thousand year reign of Christ. The is a mention of books being open but what's opened are the hidden motives. If they are not found in the book of life they go on to perdition.

Grace and peace,
Mark

Sorry, I didn't understand what happens to those who haven't heard the gospel. Are they judge by the law of their conscience? Or do they go to perdition because they weren't raised at the return of Christ?

Just_a_Joe · Oct 8, 2016

Tellastory said:
I believer God the Father knows Whom will receive Jesus from those that would not believe in Him. No man can come to the Son unless the Father draws him. John 6:44

It is the Father that gives us to the Son to be saved. John 6:37-40

The Father knows whom will prefer the evil deeds over coming to the Son to be reproved of them by Him. John 3:18-21

Evidence is shown here where the disciples were led by the Holy Spirit not to go into certain countries until a short while later, they were led to go into Macedonia because the Father knew there were people there that He would give unto the Son for He foreknew that they did not prefer their evil deeds over Him. Acts 16:6-10

God the Father knows whom are seeking Him from those that are not. Matthew 7:7-8

The gospel has been sounded thru out all the earth. Romans 10:18

So we can trust God the Father that those that "never heard the gospel" but went to hell, it is because He knew they would never had received His Son in the first place for they prefer their evil deeds over Him.

Now.. keep in mind that those you had preached to and had rejected the gospel, that they may very well believe in Him later on in life or even call on Him on their deathbed, and so there is always hope for those you love & care about to keep them in prayers.

But as it is, when after the fact, if they are in hell, it is because they prefer their evil deeds over Him & eternal life.

This kind of changes my image of God as loving, just, kind, benevolent, merciful and impartial to all. What you described is a different kind of God, quite harsh, I would say. If He knows people aren't going to accept His message, then He won't bother even telling it to them. Now I think of all the continents and islands where people didn't hear for 15, 17, 18, 20 centuries until Europeans arrived. All that time there wasn't even one person there worthy of saving? My world suddenly darkened...

ViaCrucis · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
What you're trying to convince me in is not what I've been hearing in all churches I went to. They said, faith in Jesus or hell/separation from God/annihilation. No third option. Now you're making it sound as if there is a third option. Or am I understanding you incorrectly all along?

I have no idea what kind of churches you've been to, but I suspect that if you've never heard anything like what I'm saying then your experience has, in fact, been limited in some capacity.

Never heard about Invincible Ignorance before. Interesting! Doesn't this term from moral theology pertain more to individual sins of a believer rather than ignorance about salvation in Jesus Christ?
https://www.catholicculture.org/culture/library/view.cfm?recnum=1203

The following comes directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

"1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith.""

If one is ignorant of Christ, that is they have never heard of Him, His Gospel, or His Church, or have by some means been taught wrongly and their ignorance is therefore outside of their control, then it cannot be imputed against them; thus at Judgment they will be judged not on what they didn't or couldn't know, but on what they did know--ultimately as much as they knew and were able to pursue truth and what is good to the limits of their knowledge and in accordance with their conscience they will be judged.

That's Invincible Ignorance, in a nutshell.

-CryptoLutheran

Just_a_Joe · Oct 8, 2016

JudyH said:
Not sure if anyone has said this yet, and I don't have time right now to read all the replies, but two points:

1. People in the Old Testament believed in Jesus without "knowing" him. How could that be?

Not so many people had access to the OT and believed in it in that age. Many people around the world had no idea about the OT. So, it's exactly the same argument. Many people haven't heard. Jesus revealed openly or Jesus mysteriously hidden among the pages of the OT.

JudyH said:
2. When Jesus died, Scripture says that before He rose, He went and preached to the souls in prison. Presumably those were people who believed, but never had a chance to fully understand God's salvation or hear the good news about Jesus.

This is speculation, isn't it? Because the Bible doesn't clearly says to whom and what Jesus preached before He rose.

JudyH said:
Is there any reason to think that even now, if someone dies without hearing the Gospel, Jesus might still show up and tell them the good news before they go on to judgement?

Is that what you believe in? Then I think those who haven't heard are actually in a much better position that those who did during their earthly life. If Jesus Himself shows up and after death, surely that would be much more convincing for anybody, I would think.

Neogaia777 · Oct 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
I have no idea what kind of churches you've been to, but I suspect that if you've never heard anything like what I'm saying then your experience has, in fact, been limited in some capacity.

The following comes directly from the Catechism of the Catholic Church,

"1790 A human being must always obey the certain judgment of his conscience. If he were deliberately to act against it, he would condemn himself. Yet it can happen that moral conscience remains in ignorance and makes erroneous judgments about acts to be performed or already committed.

1791 This ignorance can often be imputed to personal responsibility. This is the case when a man "takes little trouble to find out what is true and good, or when conscience is by degrees almost blinded through the habit of committing sin."59 In such cases, the person is culpable for the evil he commits.

1792 Ignorance of Christ and his Gospel, bad example given by others, enslavement to one's passions, assertion of a mistaken notion of autonomy of conscience, rejection of the Church's authority and her teaching, lack of conversion and of charity: these can be at the source of errors of judgment in moral conduct.

1793 If - on the contrary - the ignorance is invincible, or the moral subject is not responsible for his erroneous judgment, the evil committed by the person cannot be imputed to him. It remains no less an evil, a privation, a disorder. One must therefore work to correct the errors of moral conscience.

1794 A good and pure conscience is enlightened by true faith, for charity proceeds at the same time "from a pure heart and a good conscience and sincere faith.""

If one is ignorant of Christ, that is they have never heard of Him, His Gospel, or His Church, or have by some means been taught wrongly and their ignorance is therefore outside of their control, then it cannot be imputed against them; thus at Judgment they will be judged not on what they didn't or couldn't know, but on what they did know--ultimately as much as they knew and were able to pursue truth and what is good to the limits of their knowledge and in accordance with their conscience they will be judged.

That's Invincible Ignorance, in a nutshell.

-CryptoLutheran

Romans 2 explains it best...

God Bless!

Just_a_Joe · Oct 8, 2016

ViaCrucis said:
I have no idea what kind of churches you've been to, but I suspect that if you've never heard anything like what I'm saying then your experience has, in fact, been limited in some capacity.

In a nutshell, the Christian doctrine is pretty clear to me: believe in Christ or else you're going to a bad place. There are many interpretations into the specifics of exactly how to believe in Christ, and what is the bad place. But the fundamental logic is such. Thus, church ministires, teaching children the faith, missionary work etc.

Now, from what you're revealing to me, at least Catholics and Orthodox do not believe in it strictly. They allow salvation of Muslims, Buddhist, pagans etc who haven't heard the sufficient gospel or anything about Christ at all - on the basis of their conscience or little knowledge they had.

Serving Zion · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
Thank you very much for explaining in the context. I agree, this is the only way any text must be understood, if we really want to understand its meaning, and not using it for our own agenda. You know, it's not only about this or that verse. It's more about a particular prevailing doctrine or view of the way of salvation...

OK, they didn't reject it. Going back to my OP, are they not going to hell then, all of them? You go to heaven if you haven't heard the correct or sufficient message about Jesus? Or what do you mean exactly?

Hi there Joe, I think post #101 contains enough content to answer your questions, otherwise please let me know whether I might yet be able to help you. Thanks

miknik5 · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
Now you say I'm making up excuses just for the sake of saying anything against your beliefs. I'm not a kid who makes a fuss just because they didn't get something...

I'm talking honestly.

Muslims do know about Jesus. Especially who have Christians in close proximity. I'm sure Muhammed heard quite a bit of the Christian message this way or another prior to his dream, that's why he dreamed. I don't find such instances as proof of God working a miracle. Dreams are generated by the brain usung the information in memory, including the subconscious. There's enough Christians dreaming about Muhammed and accepting that faith too...

When Europeans arrived to South America or to North America or to some parts of Asia or to Australia etc they haven't found a Christian church there. Moreover, the history of conversions has been largely an ugly one.

GOD is before all things. Either there is a GOD or there isn't

But there aren't more than one GOD

miknik5 · Oct 8, 2016

One group of peoples has THE TRUE GOD and the other group of peoples don't.

That's it in a nutshell

Colter · Oct 8, 2016

[Staff edit]

When we consider that God is an absolute and man a finite, then at best mankinds conceptualization of deity can only be a crude "scaffolding" which will give way to increasingly expanding understanding of God the Father. God responds to the motives of the heart, in fact the spirit of God is within us, he stands ready to respond on that glorious day when the animal mind of man transcends the limitations of the material and begins to search for truth of origins and destiny.

Hell is like so many human concepts that evolved in religion. Jesus simply taught that the saved don't taste death.

ToBeLoved · Oct 8, 2016

Colter said:
When we consider that God is an absolute and man a finite, then at best mankinds conceptualization of deity can only be a crude "scaffolding" which will give way to increasingly expanding understanding of God the Father. God responds to the motives of the heart, in fact the spirit of God is within us, he stands ready to respond on that glorious day when the animal mind of man transcends the limitations of the material and begins to search for truth of origins and destiny.

The 'animal mind of man'? So you obviously support evolution and not the Bible and creation story.

Where does your religion get it's understanding from?

ToBeLoved · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
Now you say I'm making up excuses just for the sake of saying anything against your beliefs. I'm not a kid who makes a fuss just because they didn't get something...

I'm talking honestly.

Muslims do know about Jesus. Especially who have Christians in close proximity. I'm sure Muhammed heard quite a bit of the Christian message this way or another prior to his dream, that's why he dreamed. I don't find such instances as proof of God working a miracle. Dreams are generated by the brain usung the information in memory, including the subconscious. There's enough Christians dreaming about Muhammed and accepting that faith too...

When Europeans arrived to South America or to North America or to some parts of Asia or to Australia etc they haven't found a Christian church there. Moreover, the history of conversions has been largely an ugly one.

It would seem obvious to me that you do not trust Jesus when He says that He is a perfect, just and righteous judge? Or am i wrong?

Tree of Life · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
I'm not even opening that can of worms , excuse me my expression of speech...

Pre-Jesus is simply just absolutely unanswerable in any logical way. Or it might be the same situation with post-Jesus, but for the whole world instead of a part of it.

The Bible explicitly answers hows people were saved pre-Jesus and how people are saved post-Jesus.

Luke17:37 · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
Now you say I'm making up excuses just for the sake of saying anything against your beliefs. I'm not a kid who makes a fuss just because they didn't get something...

I'm talking honestly.

Muslims do know about Jesus. Especially who have Christians in close proximity. I'm sure Muhammed heard quite a bit of the Christian message this way or another prior to his dream, that's why he dreamed. I don't find such instances as proof of God working a miracle. Dreams are generated by the brain usung the information in memory, including the subconscious. There's enough Christians dreaming about Muhammed and accepting that faith too...

When Europeans arrived to South America or to North America or to some parts of Asia or to Australia etc they haven't found a Christian church there. Moreover, the history of conversions has been largely an ugly one.

Not these dreams... These dreams come from God.

Muslims know of Jesus usually (they call him Isa), but Islam's Jesus is only a man--not divine--and Islam's Jesus didn't actually die on the cross or resurrect from the dead on the third day. Islam's God's character is nothing like the God of the Bible. In a lot of Muslim countries, conversion from Islam can get you killed by your own family, or others. So that's not a dream you'd manufacture...especially when He speaks words of Scripture that you've never heard (like in Mohammed's dream in More Than Dreams). In some places, there probably aren't a ton of Christians actively sharing their faith--some do it quietly and extremely carefully. Sometimes God sends people to find the Christians by dream or vision, and then the Christians share. People who do witness in Islamic countries have counted the cost and know they might endure arrest, jail, beatings, and being killed by the people they are trying to reach, or seeing their spouse or children killed. And of course some "Christians" aren't real Christians. They are born with the name on their identity card, but they don't truly know Jesus or live their life in obedience to Jesus. No one is born (physically) as a Christian. To be a Christian, they have to be born again (John 3). Kids growing up in families with Christian parents aren't guaranteed to make that decision themselves to follow Jesus. My family knows plenty of Christian couples who have a child or children who grew up to reject the Christian faith. I meet plenty of children and teens in my church who already seem to have checked out.

Khalil's story, in More Than Dreams, is shorter (29 minutes). He was a member of a terrorist organization who used to commit crimes against Christians. He didn't seek God, but God sought him. His leader in the organization demanded he study the Bible and the Qur'an and write a book about the errors they expected to find in the Bible, a great exposé for the advancement of Islamic apologetics. He vehemently rejected this job because he didn't want to touch or read a Bible but ultimately he was required to obey his leader...

I know you aren't a child. And this is tough to wrestle with. If you follow Jesus, that means you'll have to let Him be your Lord, even though you can't see Him with your eyes. Following Jesus means obeying Him, and His commands are counter-human-nature (repent, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you, forgive those who sin against you, do not worry, make disciples, etc.). The only way you would be able to do it is by the power of God working in you. You would be persecuted and endure tribulation--everyone who truly follows Jesus does, and some more than others (John 16:33, 2 Timothy 3:12, Luke 14:25-35, Matthew 10). But I urge you to keep wrestling, seeking God with all your heart.

Tree of Life · Oct 8, 2016

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Abraham was told by YHWH of what he needed to know of Y'SHUA MESSIAH - of the plan of salvation - living by faith in YHWH and relying on YHWH TO PROVIDE THE SACRIFICE NEEDED (remember)...
remember Abraham is called the FATHER OF FAITH .... for all the faithful TODAY as well.

Abraham indeed had the revelation that he needed in order to embrace Jesus by faith. Abraham did embrace Jesus by faith. But he never knew him by name. And he did not have explicit knowledge of the cross.

My point is that it's possible to embrace Jesus by faith even if we have incomplete revelation.

ToBeLoved · Oct 8, 2016

Just_a_Joe said:
I'm not even opening that can of worms , excuse me my expression of speech...

Pre-Jesus is simply just absolutely unanswerable in any logical way. Or it might be the same situation with post-Jesus, but for the whole world instead of a part of it.

That is not exactly true. We know that many of the Old Testament patriarch's were imputed righteousness because of their faith.

So I'm not sure we can say for sure how Old Testament people will be judged or what God has in store for them since He will bring back His people (Hebrews/Israelite's) back to Himself, showing He is the Messiah at the second coming.

So, I would say we do not exactly know for sure, that is IMHO.

miknik5 · Oct 8, 2016

Tree of Life said:
Abraham indeed had the revelation that he needed in order to embrace Jesus by faith. Abraham did embrace Jesus by faith. But he never knew him by name. And he did not have explicit knowledge of the cross.

My point is that it's possible to embrace Jesus by faith even if we have incomplete revelation.

Where did you think CHRIST went after HE was crucified and descended to lead captivity captive?

ToBeLoved · Oct 8, 2016

Tree of Life said:
Abraham indeed had the revelation that he needed in order to embrace Jesus by faith. Abraham did embrace Jesus by faith. But he never knew him by name. And he did not have explicit knowledge of the cross.

My point is that it's possible to embrace Jesus by faith even if we have incomplete revelation.

Abraham was imputed righteous by God though, because of his faith.

Romans 4:18-20
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”d 19Without weakening in his faith, he acknowledged the decrepitness of his body (since he was about a hundred years old) and the lifelessness of Sarah’s womb.

20Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised. 22That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”e

23Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.

Tree of Life · Oct 8, 2016

ToBeLoved said:
Abraham was imputed righteous by God though, because of his faith.

Romans 4:18-20
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as he had been told, “So shall your offspring be.”d 19Without weakening in his faith, he acknowledged the decrepitness of his body (since he was about a hundred years old) and the lifelessness of Sarah’s womb.

20Yet he did not waver through disbelief in the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God was able to do what He had promised. 22That is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.”e

23Now the words “it was credited to him” were written not only for Abraham, 24but also for us, to whom righteousness will be credited—for us who believe in Him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25He was delivered over to death for our trespasses and was raised to life for our justification.

Indeed. Because of his faith...in Jesus. Faith by itself makes no one righteous. Only faith in Jesus makes one righteous.

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