Only two covenants are presented in the New Testament

[Spiritual Jew]

you misread me, I have always been saying the nation Israel would believe Jesus at the end of the tribulation so your last statement about what I am saying is false

I don't know how this relates to what I was pointing out about Romans 11:11-14. Do you believe that the ones who Paul said had stumbled in his day still had the opportunity to be saved? I'm not talking about a future tribulation period here, I'm talking about the actual Israelites living back then in Paul's day who were cut off from the good olive tree because of unbelief and stumbled. Do you believe they had the opportunity to be saved (grafted back in to the good olive tree)? Paul said himself that he hoped that some of them would be saved (Romans 11:14).

 

[Guojing]

I don't know how this relates to what I was pointing out about Romans 11:11-14. Do you believe that the ones who Paul said had stumbled in his day still had the opportunity to be saved? I'm not talking about a future tribulation period here, I'm talking about the actual Israelites living back then in Paul's day who were cut off from the good olive tree because of unbelief and stumbled. Do you believe they had the opportunity to be saved (grafted back in to the good olive tree)? Paul said himself that he hoped that some of them would be saved (Romans 11:14).

Obviously they would have died by now, so no, they were not saved.

If that was your point, then we are in agreement.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Paul himself said the promises to Israel is without repent (Romans 11:29)

God promised Abraham his physical seed will be blessed and given land on Earth (Genesis 17:8). He will bring that promise to pass.

Paul explained who all of the promises to Abraham were for here:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Could this possibly be more clear? The promises were to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ and all who belong to Christ. Don't contradict Paul and try to tell us the promises to Abraham are for the nation of Israel instead of the spiritual Israel of God. The promises to Abraham were to Jesus Christ and all who belong to Him. The land that Abraham's seed will inherit is the entire new earth.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Obviously they would have died by now, so no, they were not saved.

If that was your point, then we are in agreement.

That is the opposite of my point. Please read what I'm saying more carefully. If you would read Romans 11:11-14 carefully you should see that Paul hoped that some of those who stumbled would be saved. You are saying that they never were saved after stumbling. You're not understanding that they stumbled, but did not fall. That means they still had an opportunity to be saved after stumbling.

I believe some of them who stumbled most likely were saved or else Paul wouldn't have hoped that some of them would be (Romans 11:14). And that's why Paul said about those who stumbled "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23).

Do you think Paul would have hoped some of them would be saved if none of them who stumbled could be saved? Of course not, right?

 

[Guojing]

Paul explained who all of the promises to Abraham were for here:

Galatians 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ....26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. 27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Could this possibly be more clear? The promises were to Abraham and his seed, which is Christ and all who belong to Christ. Don't contradict Paul and try to tell us the promises to Abraham are for the nation of Israel instead of the spiritual Israel of God. The promises to Abraham were to Jesus Christ and all who belong to Him. The land that Abraham's seed will inherit is the entire new earth.

Well, given your nickname, if you believe the Body of Christ was always meant to be "Spiritual Israel", I can understand why you are interpreting all these scripture as such.

 

[Guojing]

That is the opposite of my point. Please read what I'm saying more carefully. If you would read Romans 11:11-14 carefully you should see that Paul hoped that some of those who stumbled would be saved. You are saying that they never were saved after stumbling. You're not understanding that they stumbled, but did not fall. That means they still had an opportunity to be saved after stumbling.

I believe some of them who stumbled most likely were saved or else Paul wouldn't have hoped that some of them would be (Romans 11:14). And that's why Paul said about those who stumbled "And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again" (Romans 11:23).

Do you think Paul would have hoped some of them would be saved if none of them who stumbled could be saved? Of course not, right?

If they died before entering the Body of Christ thru 1 Cor 15:1-4, then they are lost.

But of course, if they did manage to, then they are saved.

 

[mkgal1]

But you earlier claimed that Romans 11:11 is referring to Jesus's Crucifixion ("their transgression") right?

Have you now changed your mind?

I've not changed my mind about anything. But your earlier post stated that Romans 11:11 is about a transgression of Israel's that caused them to fall.....but Paul states exactly the opposite in that very passage. Paul wrote:

Romans 11:11
I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?( f ) Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles
​

........their trespass was having Jesus killed.....but God foreknew that....and it was His plan for salvation for the world. He used the most personal sin against Him.....and turned it into an act of love and forgiveness. Peter said:

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”​

 

[Guojing]

I've not changed my mind about anything. But your earlier post stated that Romans 11:11 is about a transgression of Israel's that caused them to fall.....but Paul states exactly the opposite in that very passage. Paul wrote:

Romans 11:11
I ask then, did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery?( f ) Certainly not! However, because of their trespass, salvation has come to the Gentiles
​

........their trespass was having Jesus killed.....but God foreknew that....and it was His plan for salvation for the world. He used the most personal sin against Him.....and turned it into an act of love and forgiveness. Peter said:

Acts 2:36
"Therefore let all Israel know with certainty that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ!”​

Let's stick to the KJV to avoid confusion.

I am saying that the fall in Romans 11:11 (KJV) is not about the Cross where Jesus was killed.

Israel did not fall at the Cross, otherwise Acts 1:6 would not have existed.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Well, given your nickname, if you believe the Body of Christ was always meant to be "Spiritual Israel", I can understand why you are interpreting all these scripture as such.

How else can you interpret Galatians 3:16,26-29?

That Gentile believers would be fellowheirs with Israelite believers of God's promises was something hidden in the Old Testament and revealed in the New Testament.

Ephesians 3:1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

 

[Spiritual Jew]

If they died before entering the Body of Christ thru 1 Cor 15:1-4, then they are lost.

But of course, if they did manage to, then they are saved.

So, you acknowledge that some of them who stumbled may have been saved just as Paul hoped they would, right?

 

[mkgal1]

Let's stick to the KJV to avoid confusion.

In my opinion....the KJV *creates* confusion. It doesn't make sense, because (going by the Greek translation) Paul was expressing that they didn't stumble to fall without recovery. But then the KJV uses "fall" where the word wasn't originally (it's meant to be transgression). The NASB looks to be closest to the original language:

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.​

 

[Guojing]

So, you acknowledge that some of them who stumbled may have been saved just as Paul hoped they would, right?

Yes, of course, once Israel the nation has fallen in Acts 7, the entire nation is now uncircumcised in the eyes of God (Acts 7:51).

And just like all of us former gentiles, any individual Jew from then on can be included in the Body of Christ thru the gospel of grace given to Paul (1 Cor 15:1-4)

 

[Guojing]

In my opinion....the KJV *creates* confusion. It doesn't make sense, because (going by the Greek translation) Paul was expressing that they didn't stumble to fall without recovery. But then the KJV uses "fall" where the word wasn't originally. The NASB looks to be closest to the original language:

Romans 11:11
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? May it never be! But by their transgression salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.​

The point I am making, regardless of translation, is that Romans 11:11 is NOT about the cross.

Is that still the point you are making?

 

[BABerean2]

Define what you mean by "outside of the Church".

They will be saved when they acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah at the end of the Tribulation, which is indeed a future event.

Dispensationalists claim the Church age ends seven years before the Second Coming of Christ.


.

 

[BABerean2]

The point I am making, regardless of translation, is that Romans 11:11 is NOT about the cross.

Is that still the point you are making?

How can salvation come to the Gentiles without the cross?


.

 

[Guojing]

How can salvation come to the Gentiles without the cross?
.

Never said that.

 

[BABerean2]

Never said that.

Why would you think any part of Romans 11 is not about the cross?



.

 

[Guojing]

Why would you think any part of Romans 11 is not about the cross?



.

I said Romans 11:11, because of Acts 1:6, as stated.

 

[keras]

Paul himself said the promises to Israel is without repent (Romans 11:29)

For the gifts of God and His calling are irrevocable. Romans 9:29 RE Bible
NOT 'without repent', as in no repentance, as the KJV wrongly translates it.

God promised Abraham his physical seed will be blessed and given land on Earth (Genesis 17:8). He will bring that promise to pass.

Abrahams physical seed was Jesus. Those people in Him are the Israel of God.
You seem to have great difficulty in overcoming the false theories you hold. Scripture simply does not tell of a general Jewish redemption.

 

[Guojing]

For the gifts of God and His calling are irrevocable. Romans 9:29 RE Bible
NOT 'without repent', as in no repentance, as the KJV wrongly translates it.

Abrahams physical seed was Jesus. Those people in Him are the Israel of God.
You seem to have great difficulty in overcoming the false theories you hold. Scripture simply does not tell of a general Jewish redemption.

I believe the Body of Christ is separate from Israel, as stated many times.

But if you think we are also Israel, then its understandable we will disagree with scripture interpretation.