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Are you talking about annihilationism?
What happens to soul that does not love God when he/she dies? Does God drag that soul kicking screaming to Heaven where has to stay with Him for eternity? If so, is that a loving God?
Okay, so you believe in many temporal hells, I need to do a bit more research before I can address this error. For now, I will address your other arguments. Oh and by the way, Origen was not a Church Father.Avoidance of temporary hells, if one needs such negative motivations (fire insurance) to serve God. Paul said it was the love of Christ that constrained, i.e. forced, him. Church Father Origen, for example, spoke of the possibility of people suffering torments for many ages. Assuming they continually resisted God's never failing love in ever leaving the door open to their salvation. BTW the gates into the New Jerusalum are never shut. See the book of Revelation where God says "I am making all [not some] new".
In your fallible and false position, yes. I am guilty as charged of making God "too weak... to save all." As I, at the very least implied in my opening post, the universalist position makes God out to be a god of power, but God's greatest attributes are Truth and Love, not power. In fact let me take it to the extreme, if you had a problem with Catholics honouring Mary, wait until you read this quote from Fr. Fredrick W. Faber:Since God's love never fails, there is no such thing as making "the wrong decision, one time, too many". Because of His love, God never gives up on anyone. However in your philosophy God's love has an expiry date like that on a milk carton. In your philosophy He is either too weak or too unloving to save all. If God does not save all, is it because He is lacking in omnipotence or lacking in compassion?
This refers to the fact that the souls in hell are still dependent on God for there existence. God's Holy Name YHWH, literally translates to HE WHO IS BEING, (Y=He HWH=Being) this means that all of creation is dependent on God for it's very existence, including the damned. God is present in hell, because hell is part of creation, in fact that's one greatest torments of hell, the damned cannot escape Him who the hate, try as they might to flee from Him.Douay-Rheims Bible
If I ascend into heaven, thou art there: if I descend into hell, thou art present. (Psalm 139:8)
I know you will disagree with me on this, because this gets into Sola Scriptura territory but, this does not refer to hell, it refers to earthly chastisements God causes in order to bring people back from their path damnation.
The angels were not in Heaven in the beginning, they were in a testing place where God tested their loyalty. Lucifer and a third of the angels rebelled and failed the test and fell into hell.What about the third of the angels of heaven who rebelled with Lucifer?
So those in heaven are basically robots, then, eh? God forces them to stay there forever. Maybe He should do that for everyone instead of sadistically torturing billions for all the endless eons of eternity.
Catholics who believe in universalism, reject their own Faith, a lie is a lie even everybody believes it, and truth is truth even if no one believes it.And yet there are a great many Roman Catholics who are universalists or hope for the same. As to doctrine, that is a matter of opinion & controversy within the RCC itself:
From "Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God", p.66 via the Paulist Press, 1994:
"The Church, which invokes its infallibility in the canonization of the saints, has never done so with regard to the damned. We cannot know with certainty if even one human soul does in fact go to hell" (quoting Karl Rahner).
Good Goats: Healing Our Image of God: Dennis Linn: 9780809134632: Books - Amazon.ca
"Karl Rahner, S.J. (5 March 1904 – 30 March 1984), was a German Jesuit priest and theologian who, alongside Henri de Lubac, Hans Urs von Balthasar, and Yves Congar, is considered one of the most influential Catholic theologians of the 20th century."
Okay, I'm still concerned with your view on this, taking this will effect your relationship with God. However, I will et you be for now, and focus more on defending my position.I don't really study such things. They are not Gospel message, and many "want" to believe different ideas. The Gospel is good news. Hell, Hades, Gehenna, etc. doesn't deserve seeking.
I do believe that there is light and darkness. If Jesus is the light, and the Father a greatest light, then the condemned make their way to darkness. Furthest from the Father. Which is why Jesus used the term "outer darkness". Lake of Fire? That's physical. I believe we attain spiritual, whether it's with God or away from God.
In your fallible and false position, yes. I am guilty as charged of making God "too weak... to save all."
Those in Heaven are not "robots" au contraire, they are actually more human than you or I, they have fulfilled their destiny. As I mentioned before, the purpose of our existence is union with God, if we fulfill that purpose, we do not need free will anymore. God does not "force" the people in Heaven to stay there, the people in Heaven are completely consumed with God, and have given themselves over to Him completely.
God's greatest attributes are Truth and Love, not power.
Yes, the damned, do not have free will. The reason that words like "death" and "destruction" are used to refer to hell, is not because souls cease to exist in hell, but because the souls in hell are broken, they have failed to fulfill their purpose of union with God. The souls in hell have given themselves to this brokenness and thus, have lost their free will.It certainly sounds like they are forced to stay there, since they have no free will anymore in your viewpoint. Therefore they are just like robots or animals with no free will.
Will God also take away the free will of those in hell & force them to stay there forever while He keeps them alive and the flames ever burning that will torture them for the endless ages of eternity? How is that a loving God? It isn't, but the God Who is willing & able to save all out of hell is truly loving.
The caricature of a god that you posit is what Satan can only dream of being.
Scholar's Corner: The Center for Bible studies in Christian Universalism
Actually, I think God's greatest attribute is His holiness. God's temple, His throne, His angels, His Spirit, His name, His word, and many other things directly associated with God are described as holy. This is not the case for any of His other attributes. The cherubim before God's throne proclaim, "Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty," not, "Love, love, love," or "Truth, truth, truth." When it comes to the matter of God's punishment of the wicked, it is His holiness and justness that is primarily on display, not His love or truth. The universalist mantra that "Love Wins" relies on a distortion of God's essential character that emphasizes His love over His holiness and justness.
When it comes to the matter of God's punishment of the wicked, it is His holiness and justness that is primarily on display, not His love or truth.
Okay, I'm still concerned with your view on this, taking this will effect your relationship with God. However, I will et you be for now, and focus more on defending my position.
Peace be with you.
No, the most central aspect of God's nature is Truth first, love second. God's name is YHWH "HE WHO IS BEING" this points to Truth not love. The God is Truth first, Love second is because:God's actual nature or essence is love. The epistle of 1 John says twice "God is love".
The entire law is summed up in two commandments re love.
The two greatest commadments speak of love, not holiness.
Love is even greater than faith (1 Cor.13:13)
Jesus said, love your enemies.
Mercy triumphs over judgement (Js. 2:13)
Grace superabounds over sin (Romans 5)
As for His "justness" or judgements, where is the fairness in endless torments for sins of a few years or decades? Scripture says:
"When your judgments come upon the earth, the people of the world learn righteousness." (Isa.26:9)
The Lord is acquainted with the rescue of the devout out of trial, yet is keeping the unjust for chastening in the day of judging. (2 Pet.2:9)
51 And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem, 52 And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him. 53 And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem. 54 And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? 55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of. 56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them. (Luke 9)
Was that the case when David committed premeditated adultery & murder for which His "holiness and justness" required the death penalty?
The word used for "punishment" at Mt.25:46 is KOLASIS which was used of correction in ancient times. Surely this is consistent with both God's love and holiness.
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
Yes, the damned, do not have free will. The reason that words like "death" and "destruction" are used to refer to hell, is not because souls cease to exist in hell, but because the souls in hell are broken, they have failed to fulfill their purpose of union with God. The souls in hell have given themselves to this brokenness and thus, have lost their free will.
You seem to be misunderstanding my point that, the purpose of our existence is union with God. Free will is only a means to that end, once one achieves or resists that purpose to the breaking point, free will is of no more use. Likewise Faith and Hope also cease to be of use in eternity, since Faith and Hope are also a means to that end.
No, the most central aspect of God's nature is Truth first, love second. God's name is YHWH "HE WHO IS BEING" this points to Truth not love. The God is Truth first, Love second is because:
1. You can't love what you don't know, there can be no love without truth.
2. Love is an act of the will, if God is love before truth or without truth, than we have functionalistic view of God, where God is an entity that is defined by what He does, rather than who He is.
God's actual nature or essence is love. The epistle of 1 John says twice "God is love".
The entire law is summed up in two commandments re love.
As for His "justness" or judgements, where is the fairness in endless torments for sins of a few years or decades?
Was that the case when David committed premeditated adultery & murder for which His "holiness and justness" required the death penalty?
The word used for "punishment" at Mt.25:46 is KOLASIS which was used of correction in ancient times. Surely this is consistent with both God's love and holiness, the goal being love, i.e. the salvation of the lost.
I know, that's what they claim and probably even believe. But the type of love they're claiming isn't true love, to yourself on someone and drag that person kicking and screaming to a place where he/she has to love you forever, that's not real love. The very phrase, "With love, conquer your enemies," while I would agree with it in other contexts, in this context points towards, forcing oneself on one's enemies, and making them love oneself against another's will, that's not real love.I am not a Universalist - my view on this topic is as of yet unformed, so don't take this as a defense of universalism:
I believe you have gotten a wrong view of Universalism - most universalist arguments are based off the love of God, not His power. That is, Universalists believe that God in His love will correct, through discipline, all rebellious beings, as ultimately Victory belongs to Him - so that in the end sin will not have won in any way, shape, or form.
I.e it is a form of, "With love, conquer your enemies."
I personally like this argument, since it makes sense for a perfect God, but I myself am not a Universalist, at least not yet.
Universalism must always be a hope and not a dogma - it can do a lot of harm in the wrong hands.
So, no, God's essence is not love. His essential nature is that of holy purity, of unsullied, perfect righteousness.
As I pointed out, we don't read in Scripture of God's loving temple, or His loving angels, or His loving word or throne.
God is called holy in Scripture a great multitude of times!
And God commands us in His word:
"Be you holy as I am holy." (Lev. 11:44, 45; 19:2; 20:7; 1 Pe. 1:15, 16; 2 Pe. 3:11).
In context, Matthew 25:46 is speaking, not of remedial punishment, but of the wrath of God poured out upon the unrepentant wicked in the eternal punishment of Hell. And that punishment, as the parallelism of the verse indicates, will be as everlasting in its duration as the duration of the eternal life of the righteous in heaven.
Yeah, it refers to the age to come, and the age to come is eternal! And thus those who reject to live with God, live without Him for eternity."This popular assertion, however, is fallacious. The fact that such a claim should so long endure and conquer, is proof of the power of deception."
The vast majority of learned sources agree the word aionios, & the noun, aion, can refer to a duration which is of a limited time period that has an end. The real issue here, then, is whether or not the word means a limited time period in the context of Matthew 25:31-46 in regards to punishment. That is something that should be a matter of serious study rather than assumptions based on what my pastor or bible study group assumes to be the case.
Considering the Greek word kolasis ("punishment", Mt.25:46, KJV) can refer to a corrective punishment, that should tell the reader of Matthew 25:46 what the possible duration of aionios ("everlasting", KJV) is & that it may refer to a finite punishment. Why? Because since it is corrective, it is with the purpose of bringing the person corrected to salvation. Oncce saved the person no longer has need of such a punishment & it ends. So it isn't "everlasting". [Or if it "everlasting", it is only everlasting in its positive effect]. Therefore this passage could just as easily support universalism as anything else.
From a review of a book by Ilaria Ramelli, namely The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena (Brill, 2013. 890 pp):
Ilaria Ramelli, The Christian Doctrine of Apokatastasis: A Critical Assessment from the New Testament to Eriugena | Nemes | Journal of Analytic Theology
"...in a passage in Origen in which he speaks of “life after aionios life” (160). As a native speaker of Greek he does not see a contradiction in such phrasing; that is because aionios life does not mean “unending, eternal life,” but rather “life of the next age.” Likewise the Bible uses the word kolasis to describe the punishment of the age to come. Aristotle distinguished kolasis from timoria, the latter referring to punishment inflicted “in the interest of him who inflicts it, that he may obtain satisfaction.” On the other hand, kolasis refers to correction, it “is inflicted in the interest of the sufferer” (quoted at 32). Thus Plato can affirm that it is good to be punished (to undergo kolasis), because in this way a person is made better (ibid.). This distinction survived even past the time of the writing of the New Testament, since Clement of Alexandria affirms that God does not timoreitai, punish for retribution, but he does kolazei, correct sinners (127)."
http://journalofanalytictheology.com/jat/index.php/jat/article/viewFile/jat.2015-3.181913130418a/271
"Augustine raised the argument that since aionios in Mt. 25:46 referred to both life and punishment, it had to carry the same duration in both cases.5 However, he failed to consider that the duration of aionios is determined by the subject to which it refers. For example, when aionios referred to the duration of Jonah’s entrapment in the fish, it was limited to three days. To a slave, aionios referred to his life span. To the Aaronic priesthood, it referred to the generation preceding the Melchizedek priesthood. To Solomon’s temple, it referred to 400 years. To God it encompasses and transcends time altogether."
"Thus, the word cannot have a set value. It is a relative term and its duration depends upon that with which it is associated. It is similar to what “tall” is to height. The size of a tall building can be 300 feet, a tall man six feet, and a tall dog three feet. Black Beauty was a great horse, Abraham Lincoln a great man, and Yahweh the GREAT God. Though God is called “great,” the word “great” is neither eternal nor divine. The horse is still a horse. An adjective relates to the noun it modifies. In relation to God, “great” becomes GREAT only because of who and what God is. This silences the contention that aion must always mean forever because it modifies God. God is described as the God of Israel and the God of Abraham. This does not mean He is not the God of Gentiles, or the God of you and me. Though He is called the God of the “ages,” He nonetheless remains the God who transcends the ages."
I heard an online homily given by a priest, who used this passage to prove just the opposite:Jude 7 speaks of the fire that destroyed Sodom as an example of "aionion fire" (the same words aionion fire used in Mt.25:41, compare v.46). Did Sodom burn forever?
No, there is no freewill in Heaven,
First of all, why would God, have the Israelites call Him HE WHO IS BEING (YHWH) the name was simply meant to refer to His existence? The existence of God was not an issue of concern to the ancient Israelites, atheism was almost non-existent at the time. The name YHWH refers to the fact that He is being Himself, all of reality is dependent upon Him. Truth is "that which is" which clearly point to Being Himself, and the simpler and more common translation of YHWH is HE WHO IS, this all points to the fact that God is Truth Himself.I would think the phrase "he who is being" would refer to God's existence.
No, love is dependent upon truth. it is true that love may motivate you to seek truth, but if you don't know that something is there, how can you love it? Yes, the end goal is love and becoming love in the Lord, but love causes union, it's all about uniting yourself with Truth Himself. The Scriptural passages regarding knowledge puffs up, simply refer to those who abusing knowledge to suite there own ends, likewise 1 Cor. 13, refers to one who is failing use his/her knowledge to seek the Lord and Love Him.Re 1. of course love gives knowledge of truth. That knowledge of the truth is so one can come to the One Who is love & be saved. Being saved is to live in love by faith in Jesus Christ. That in no way makes truth superior to love. Truth is not the end goal, but love, being love & becoming love in the Lord. Scripture says knowledge puffs up, but love edifies. In 1 Cor.13 you can know all mysteries & have all knowledge, but without love one is nothing. Likewise if God tortured billions for all eternity, he would be nothing.
Yes, but which is more important, His nature or His actions? Which is better, to love someone because of what one does? Or to love someone because of what one is?Re 2 God's nature is love & that causes Him to always act in love. His nature is consistent with His actions. OTOH if a man says i love God, but hates his brother, he is a liar & the truth is not in him.
Like I said in an earlier post, Lucifer and the angels were not in Heaven in the beginning, they were in testing place where God tested their loyalty. Lucifer and his angels failed the test, and fell into hell.I disagree
Lucifer had free will to choose to rebel against GOD.
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