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Online Ordainment

Gnarwhal

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Few of the disciples were highly educated. They were fishermen, farmers, tax collectors. Jesus didn't ask to see their degree when He called them. The problem with the church today is they are being led by men who are highly educated in the traditions of men.

That's because there was no higher education at the time, but after the immediate generation of apostles passed away, there began the establishment of a catechesis which educated even new Christians in the proper faith.

Education affords a person wisdom and rationality that if they were to lead a church without it they would end up off the theological deep end.

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revrobor

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Education affords a person wisdom and rationality that if they were to lead a church without it they would end up off the theological deep end.

The Bible teaches that wisdom comes from God. And He is perfectly capable of leading one who is yielded to Him.
 
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Gnarwhal

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The Bible teaches that wisdom comes from God. And He is perfectly capable of leading one who is yielded to Him.

He's also perfectly capable of utilizing institutions and teachers to deliver wisdom.

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revrobor

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He's also perfectly capable of utilizing institutions and teachers to deliver wisdom.

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I'd rather have a non-degreed pastor who's yielded to God than a degreed one who thinks he knows it all.
 
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hopeinGod

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Why the anti-intellectual stand? Within my 40 years as a Christian, I have met untold numbers of believers who seem to think all seminaries are cemeteries. That is simply not so. In fact, this disgust I have witnessed within the church against extended education, even within in regard to securing a secular university education, has helped to keep some Christians less informed and less capable readers and writers.

A person can be both academically learned and grow up in Him in all things. The sad truth is that most on-their-own pastors/teachers prefer little to no accountability and establish their ministries completely apart from overseers, so when they stray from proven doctrines and commit serious sins, they are not held accountable. Being a Lone Ranger is more adopted by those not schooled within structured academia.
 
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Gnarwhal

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I'd rather have a non-degreed pastor who's yielded to God than a degreed one who thinks he knows it all.

That's exactly the ignorant inductive reasoning and generalization that I'm talking about. You are automatically assuming that because a person has a higher education that they are somehow switched off to God's leadership.

I know a fair number of pastors and the ones that are the most yielded to God happen to be the ones that are also the highest educated. One of whom has his PhD, and his pastoral work has been some of the most profound that I've ever known. Contrast that with the uneducated pastors who just sauntered into the position, they are leading cult-like congregations that engage in all kinds of questionable behavior and adhere to all kinds of heterodox theology because they have no theological yard stick to measure up against. They have no idea what historically has been condemned as heresy, so those heresies enter into the church without a filter. They have no idea how to properly interpret certain kinds of literary styles that the authors of Scripture used, so they misinterpret the meanings and end up building their church around a unorthodoxy theology.

So as you can see your bias is based on logical fallacies.

Why the anti-intellectual stand? Within my 40 years as a Christian, I have met untold numbers of believers who seem to think all seminaries are cemeteries. That is simply not so. In fact, this disgust I have witnessed within the church against extended education, even within in regard to securing a secular university education, has helped to keep some Christians less informed and less capable readers and writers.

A person can be both academically learned and grow up in Him in all things. The sad truth is that most on-their-own pastors/teachers prefer little to no accountability and establish their ministries completely apart from overseers, so when they stray from proven doctrines and commit serious sins, they are not held accountable. Being a Lone Ranger is more adopted by those not schooled within structured academia.

Great post, thank you.

There's an inherent belief in much of the Evangelical collective conscience that education is bad for your soul or something. Ironically, it's just the opposite, when we know and understand things properly, that helps pave the way for proper faith.

You have absolutely hit the nail on the head, there's an anti-institutional sentiment (mostly amongst non-denominationals, but not completely) that not only should we reject any form of higher education in ourselves and our leadership, but we also need to stand apart from anything that would keep us in check ethically, morally and theologically.
 
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revrobor

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A person can be both academically learned and grow up in Him in all things. The sad truth is that most on-their-own pastors/teachers prefer little to no accountability and establish their ministries completely apart from overseers, so when they stray from proven doctrines and commit serious sins, they are not held accountable. Being a Lone Ranger is more adopted by those not schooled within structured academia.

You are assuming that every pastor who has no overseer other than God is not to be trusted. When did God loose His ability to guide His people?
 
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revrobor

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That's exactly the ignorant inductive reasoning and generalization that I'm talking about. You are automatically assuming that because a person has a higher education that they are somehow switched off to God's leadership.

And you are automatically assuming that God's guidance is insufficient for a person who has no higher education.
 
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And you are automatically assuming that God's guidance is insufficient for a person who has no higher education.
So what does a non denomination church do and what do they believe in? Are each of them different and independent or do they all get together and believe in the same things?
 
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Gnarwhal

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And you are automatically assuming that God's guidance is insufficient for a person who has no higher education.

Not at all, you're drawing an erroneous conclusion. Bottom line: God gave us cognitive faculties, we'd be remiss not to use them.

So what does a non denomination church do and what do they believe in? Are each of them different and independent or do they all get together and believe in the same things?

Generally the former (they're all independent of each other) with a few exceptions here and there.

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revrobor

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So what does a non denomination church do and what do they believe in? Are each of them different and independent or do they all get together and believe in the same things?

"Non-denominational" simply means they are not part of a denomination and don't answer to a national or district office. Those churches draft their own statement of faith.
 
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Gnarwhal

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What makes you think those who are not degreed don't think?

It's not that they "don't think" it's that they tend to shy away from critical thinking.

But this goes beyond ones thought processes, this also has to do with an entire swath of leaders dodging accountability.

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revrobor

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It's not that they "don't think" it's that they tend to shy away from critical thinking.

But this goes beyond ones thought processes, this also has to do with an entire swath of leaders dodging accountability.

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Why do you think a non-degreed person is not accountable to the highest authority of all GOD.
 
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Gnarwhal

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Why do you think a non-degreed person is not accountable to the highest authority of all GOD.

Well who's going to enforce that authority? We are the instruments of God, do you think if a pastor is teaching heresy, or acting immorally or unethically is God going to drop the hammer himself? Where's the precedent?

No, God holds his church leaders accountable by the system of hierarchy that's been a part of the church for 2,000 years. Leaders that wish to step outside of that (non-denominational leaders) more often then not desire to be their own authority.

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revrobor

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Well who's going to enforce that authority? We are the instruments of God, do you think if a pastor is teaching heresy, or acting immorally or unethically is God going to drop the hammer himself? Where's the precedent?

No, God holds his church leaders accountable by the system of hierarchy that's been a part of the church for 2,000 years. Leaders that wish to step outside of that (non-denominational leaders) more often then not desire to be their own authority.

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What needs to be enforced. You seem to assume no pastor (especially non-degreed ones) can be trusted and must have someone nearby to "drop the hammer". Yes there are a few Jim Joneses out there but I have sat under many non-denominational pastors who are great men of God. As far as human accountability is concerned most non-denominational churches have boards. There are churches who have had the type of accountability you describe for 2,000 that have gotten far away from God's truth adding to it the traditions and inventions of man. God doesn't need man to run His church. Mankind needs God to take back His church.
 
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hopeinGod

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I have witnessed many times how easily the attitudes, either right or wrong, are easily adopted by understudies of pastors. Without discerning elders/peers/overseers, pastors can convey from their pulpits whatever they wish to their unsuspecting people, including error, bitterness and intemperance. I know this personally, as I was once a victim of such a system.

These situations are more easily borne when pastors are isolated from accountability. The sinful pastor, especially when his unjudged messages dominate, desire to remain private and secret. But God wants the sin exposed and dealt with in the loving fellowship of other mature believers.

It truly is a fault in Christians not to disclose themselves and be more open with their spiritual peers when they are not able to extricate themselves out of their sins, doubts and troubles. For some reason, they tend to cling to and cover up their errors and sins.

Consider, for instance, the pedophilia that for so long overran Catholic asemblies. Rather than reprove the sin, the overseers chose secrecy. Such has been the case with WOF leadership who build their own kingdoms upon error, promises that never come to pass, and the siphoning of funds from the innocent. It took many years for enough beguiled people to rise up against them in large numbers, and yet there remains a staggering number of believers still clinging to those false teachings.

It is useful for a pastor to uncover his sins to those above him, even, in some cases to ask for pardon and intercession from his flock for his poor choices. When sin is left alone, the wrong sort of fruit is grown, hatreds and bitterness take root, and relationships become irreconcilable, because, in many instances, wayward pastors will perniciously conceal their sin year after year.

From those to whom a pastor's sinfulness is unknown, there isn't a confrontation until it is very late, and even if their concerns were late in getting to him, the pastor must be willing to admit to his fault and repent in order for the end to come of his waywardness. This is why mature overseers are necessary to provide accountability.
 
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"Non-denominational" simply means they are not part of a denomination and don't answer to a national or district office. Those churches draft their own statement of faith.
I got a lot of statement of faith reading around my local area. I just posted in a Pentecostal type section of the forum and have a gut feeling I'm not welcomed and not accepted. I "spoke" in the wrong group. I might like the wording non denominational but I really don't think there is such thing as a Calvinistic non denominational church. I don't think "Calvinistic" can be a denomination.

Is there?
 
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