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One Way

T

Tariki

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Many Christians seem to see "Christ" as the only way to salvation.

Within the Buddhist faith is a word "apaya", normally translated as "skillful means". This word is derived in part from a famous text called the Lotus Sutra where the Buddhist teachings - the Dharma - are likened to falling rain. The rain falls undiscriminately on all............and each will respond according to their nature. A daffodill will never become an oak tree! Or, as the Zen master once said..........."see that bamboo, how long it is........see that bamboo, how short it is........that is their nature."

I think perhaps St Paul came close with his "I become all things to all men" words.

"Christ" can just be a word. Christ/Jesus may be the "only" way, yet this can be interpreted narrowly or widely.

I remember long ago watching a TV show where two eminent Christian theologians were debating with Lionel Blue, the rabbi. The Chairperson of the debate asked the theologians to say just what Christ meant to them, to which one replied: "I would say that knowledge of Christ, belief in Christ, allegiance to Christ, makes a person a son of God in a totally unique sense. And only such belief can make one such a son of God." I remember the words of Lionel Blue, spoken in reply with quiet strength and determination..........."Do you mean to imply by this that the Jewish people in the death camps of Auschwitz and Treblinka who shared their last slice of bread with each other were not God's children in the fullest possible sense?" The theologian did not stand his ground..........and began to speak of the parable of the wedding feast where the original guests failed to turn up and others were then gathered from further afield to join the party! I remember Lionel Blue speaking again, perhaps with a little less grace and humour (!) ........."oh no no no............we Jews, Buddhists, Hindus......we want to come into heaven through the front door, not be sneaked in through the back as some sort of second thought when others have failed to arrive......"

Anyway, just how broad is the "One way" ?
 

SavedByGrace3

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Tariki said:
Anyway, just how broad is the "One way" ?

1Co 15:
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;
4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures
:


That is it dear friend. There is no other way.

Joh 14:
6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Two simple thoughts.
1. Look at this simple verse of scripture:

Acts 3:23
(GW) All the people of Israel should know beyond a doubt that God made Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ.


God made Jesus Lord and Christ. It is a done deal.
Who is Lord?
Who made Him that?

2. And this:
Act 2:
24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Final test:
Whom did God made Lord? (say it out loud)
Who raised Jesus from the dead?

If you answered correct? what does the following scripture say about you?!!!:


Rom 10:9
(ISV) If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.


If you did as this says, you are saved. He does not lie, and He knows what He is talking about. So the way is a simple one. So simple that any child can do it. It is not a back door... it is the front gate, and Jesus is standing at the door waiting for you.

Rom 10:13
For "EVERY ONE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.
 
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T

Tariki

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didaskalos,

thank you for your response. I am not particularly impressed by quotations from scripture. (You could do worse than consider another topic I have begun............."Do not be satisfied")

From the Koran.............."There is no joy in the life hearafter for those outside of Islam". Are you "Outside of Islam"? Do YOU consider no joy is to be yours?

"Do not be satisifed"..............what decides our choice of scripture?

A monk asked Yun Men, 'What are the teachings of a lifetime?' Yun Men said, '"An appropriate statement."

An appropriate statement..............one born of grace that addresses the moment as lived and experienced.

In Lukes gospel Jesus speaks to the Rich man..............."give away ALL your riches" to gain Eternal Life. And to the tax collector Zacchaeus.....who says "I will give HALF my belongings away" There is no "set amount" or a set course to Eternal life............Jesus lived the "appropriate statement"....................he did not rely entirely upon scripture, however venerated by tradition.

From one of the founding fathers of Pure Land Buddhism...........Rennyo....

"Faith does not arise
From within ones self.
The entrusting heart is itself
Given by the Other power"

The "true" way is not found by our own appropriation of any scripture............(in my opinion!)

Anyway, thanks for your response.
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

I find it very strange that any self-respecting monotheistic religion that upholds truth, mercy and justice could claim, "Our way or the highway..to hell." To me, this smacks of spiritual arrogance. (Isn't humility a virtue?) I cannot believe that a just, merciful and loving God could teach such a thing.

Judaism most definitely does NOT believe that it's "our way or the highway...to hell" (i.e. We don't believe that all non-Jews will go to hell). Our Sages say that, "The righteous of all nations have a share in the world-to-come." Doesn't Jonah 4:10-11 show us that God cares for all of humanity?

We believe that whereas there are 613 precepts/commandments in the Torah (Genesis to Deuteronomy; our most basic scripture) that are incumbent/binding on Jews, there are only 7 that are binding on non-Jews. Using the traditional methods of Jewish Biblical exegesis, our Sages infer these 7 precepts from Genesis 9:1-17 & believe that God gave them to Noah & his sons. Since Noah & sons were not Jewish, we refer to these 7 precepts as the 7 Noahide Precepts. The 7 are: 1) To establish courts of justice; 2) No blasphemy; 3) No idolatry; 4) No incest/adultery; 5) Do not shed blood; 6) Do not steal & 7) Do not cut meat from a living animal.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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T

Tariki

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...........well, I must admit to liking the "stillsmallvoice"........

As the Chriatian mystic Meister Eckhart once said............."They do him wrong who take God just in one particular way, for they end with the way rather than God". (Of course, Eckhart was "done" for heresy!)

And as the Bhagavad Gita says.............."He who in faith worships any other God, because of his love he worships me............."

Thanks
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi Tariki!

You posted:

...........well, I must admit to liking the "stillsmallvoice"........

Egad! :blush:

Surely God is not something that can be packaged & presented like breakfast cereal! To think that such as we could definitively express such as He, His vastness, His Wholly Other-ness, must be an incredible kind of arrogance.

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Lambslove posted:

...because there is nothing lacking in Christ's teachings that make us want to go look to buddha to learn from.

Our Sage Ben Zoma says: "Who is wise? He who learns from everyone."

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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TWells

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Hi ssv!
I find it very strange that any self-respecting monotheistic religion that upholds truth, mercy and justice could claim, "Our way or the highway..to hell."
I also find it strange as to why some are so completely intolerant of others that hold a exclusivist view. Cute strawman though.
To me, this smacks of spiritual arrogance. (Isn't humility a virtue?) I cannot believe that a just, merciful and loving God could teach such a thing.
So holding to a ultimate truth is arrogance? I believe child molestation is ultimately wrong...am I being arrogant by believing that NAMBLA is an evil group? And why is it not arrogance for you to say my view of ultimate truth is wrong but it is arrogant for me to say your pluralist view of truth is wrong?

Also, cant we have a discussion without throwing around childish names like "spiritually arrogant."?
Our Sage Ben Zoma says: "Who is wise? He who learns from everyone."
I have read and studied many other religious writings and have gains insights on many things through them, but for ultimate truth and mattters of God I do consider Christian Scripture authoritative. Am I renouncing wisdom? Are you when you dont hold to exclusive portions of Christian Scripture? Why the double standard?

In Christ,

Travis
 
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SavedByGrace3

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stillsmallvoice said:
Hi all!

Lambslove posted:



Our Sage Ben Zoma says: "Who is wise? He who learns from everyone."

Be well!

ssv :wave:

Who is confused... ummm, the one who learns from everyone?

Get Better
 
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T

Tariki

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Learning from everything.............

"This being human is a guest house.
Every morning a new arrival.

A joy, a depression, a meaness,
some momentary awareness comes
as an unexpected visitor.

Welcome and entertain them all
Even if they're a crowd of sorrows,
who violently sweep your house
empty of its furniture.

Still treat each guest honorably,
He may be clearing you out
for some new delight.

The dark thought, the shame, the malice,
meet them at the door laughing,
and invite them in.

Be grateful for whoever comes,
because each has been sent
as a guide from beyond.

(Rumi)

All easier said than done............. :wave:
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

Hmm, lessee here...


TWells posted:

I also find it strange as to why some are so completely intolerant of others that hold a exclusivist view. Cute strawman though.

Like Tom Hanks said in Big, "I don't get it"; i.e. please elaborate.

So holding to a ultimate truth is arrogance?

No, that is not what I said. I just find it odd that any monotheistic religion based on the premise of God's love for humanity (such as mine, Judaism, or yours, Christianity) could teach that God necessarily condemns to eternal damnation/perdition, any human being who, while good, kind, charitable and just, does not necessarily believe in certain strictly theistic/theological principles. My faith does not hold to this. This has nothing to do with "ultimate truth". What I did say was arrogance was, "To think that such as we could definitively express such as He, His vastness, His Wholly Other-ness." I, as a believing orthodox Jew, can make no more pretense of being able to know the totality of God, as you, a believing Christian can. The totality of God is far greater than the mass of neurons in our brains can grasp.

I believe child molestation is ultimately wrong...

So do I. So would a believing Muslim/Bahai/etc.

...am I being arrogant by believing that NAMBLA is an evil group?

No, I believe that their an evil bunch of sick perverts too.

...your pluralist view of truth...

Where did I say that I have a pluralist view of truth? As a matter of fact, I don't have such a view, quite the contrary. However, as an orthodox Jew, I believe that God is merciful enough to make ample provision in His grand scheme of things for non-Jews. (I don't know what this has to do with perverted child molestetation being fundamentally wrong & evil.)

Also, cant we have a discussion without throwing around childish names like "spiritually arrogant."?

I don't think that the term is childish, not in the context I used it in.

Our Sage Ben Zoma says: "Who is wise? He who learns from everyone."

I have read and studied many other religious writings and have gains insights on many things through them, but for ultimate truth and mattters of God I do consider Christian Scripture authoritative. Am I renouncing wisdom? Are you when you dont hold to exclusive portions of Christian Scripture? Why the double standard?

Ben Zoma didn't say: "Who is wise? He who believes that there are many Ultimate Truths." I have also studied many other religious writings (the Gospels, the Qur'an, the writings of Bahaullah, and the Tao Te Ching, to name a few) and I hope that I've learned much from them; this doesn't mean that I consider them to be the Ultimate Truth or authoritative (I don't). But I do not deny that they have insights that I can learn from. Since I'm talking about learning & wisdom, not ultimate truth, I don't see what the problem is, neither do I see any "double-standard."

Didaskalos posted:

Who is confused... ummm, the one who learns from everyone?

I don't get it (see above).

Tariki, nice verse! Who is Rumi? Try these from Omar Khayyam's The Rubaiyat (FitzGerald translation, 1st edition):

Why, all the Saints and Sages who discuss'd
Of the Two Worlds so learnedly, are thrust
Like foolish Prophets forth; their Words to Scorn
Are scatter'd, and their Mouths are stopt with Dust.


Oh, come with old Khayyam, and leave the Wise
To talk; one thing is certain, that Life flies;
One thing is certain, and the Rest is Lies;
The Flower that once has blown for ever dies.


Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Doctor and Saint, and heard great Argument
About it and about: but evermore
Came out by the same Door as in I went.


With them the Seed of Wisdom did I sow,
And with my own hand labour'd it to grow:
And this was all the Harvest that I reap'd--
I came like Water, and like Wind I go.

(I love The Rubaiyat; parts of it remind me of The Book of Ecclesiastes, which I also love.)

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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TWells

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Hi ssv :wave:
stillsmallvoice said:
Like Tom Hanks said in Big, "I don't get it"; i.e. please elaborate.
You had said previously:
I find it very strange that any self-respecting monotheistic religion that upholds truth, mercy and justice could claim, "Our way or the highway..to hell."


The straw man I was referring to was your simplified view of the Christian doctrine of Hell.
No, that is not what I said. I just find it odd that any monotheistic religion based on the premise of God's love for humanity (such as mine, Judaism, or yours, Christianity) could teach that God necessarily condemns to eternal damnation/perdition, any human being who, while good, kind, charitable and just, does not necessarily believe in certain strictly theistic/theological principles. My faith does not hold to this.
How does seperation from God sacrifice Gods desire for both love, and justice? I find it odd that a monotheistic religion with central truths like the Shema and Decalogue no longer finds it neccesary to worship and serve that Lord only.
This has nothing to do with "ultimate truth". What I did say was arrogance was, "To think that such as we could definitively express such as He, His vastness, His Wholly Other-ness." I, as a believing orthodox Jew, can make no more pretense of being able to know the totality of God, as you, a believing Christian can. The totality of God is far greater than the mass of neurons in our brains can grasp.
I wasnt referring to that comment. I would agree with you that we have no way to comprehend the vastness of God other than what He has revealed to us.
So do I. So would a believing Muslim/Bahai/etc.
I didnt presume otherwise, that wasnt my point.
No, I believe that their an evil bunch of sick perverts too.
Good to hear! ;)
Where did I say that I have a pluralist view of truth? As a matter of fact, I don't have such a view, quite the contrary.
You just believe we can worship and follow false gods and God will still consider that a acceptable reconciliation with Him? YHWH, must have changed His mind in a few areas in the last 2 thousand years.

Hmm...this still sounds pretty arrogant to me. Your basically saying while their gods are false and their views of truth are wrong as well, my Gods just not going to hold them responsible. How is this not "spiritual arrogance"?
However, as an orthodox Jew, I believe that God is merciful enough to make ample provision in His grand scheme of things for non-Jews.
Are you saying that Christians believe otherwise? Through the Messiah God has made allowance to bring all people into His plan of redemtion. He does require though (as He did in the Hebrew Scriptures) that they do this His way through His New Covenant with man.
(I don't know what this has to do with perverted child molestetation being fundamentally wrong & evil.)
Because this has everything to do with ultimate truth. No one takes 'pluralist' type view with whether child molestation is wrong because most everyone would agree that its a "sin". That is a ultimate truth claim, yet those who believe its a ultimate sin to have other gods before Him who should be the most absolute dearest and important being in our lives are for some reason "arrogant".
I don't think that the term is childish, not in the context I used it in.
Im sorry, but calling other people names because they hold a different belief than you do is very childish.
Ben Zoma didn't say: "Who is wise? He who believes that there are many Ultimate Truths." I have also studied many other religious writings (the Gospels, the Qur'an, the writings of Bahaullah, and the Tao Te Ching, to name a few) and I hope that I've learned much from them; this doesn't mean that I consider them to be the Ultimate Truth or authoritative (I don't). But I do not deny that they have insights that I can learn from. Since I'm talking about learning & wisdom, not ultimate truth, I don't see what the problem is.
I dont see a problem either as I said in my previous post Ive read other religious writings and have gained some insights but I dont consider the authoritative.

In Christ,

Travis
 
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Tariki

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Well, whatever the truth may or not be in regard to pluralist/exclusivist........the fact is that we do live in a pluralist world, mixing with those of many faiths........and those with none. If we believe our own "truth" is worth hearing and responding to then in my opinion we need to truly hear the voice of the "other" before giving voice ourselves, unless we merely wish to speak AT people.

There have been some Christians who have delved deeply into the Buddhist faith.........Heinrich Dumoulin for instance, who ended his book "Understanding Buddhism" with the following.......

"Whether, in its deepest ground, being is personal or impersonal, is something that humans will never be able to plumb by their rational powers. Here we face a decision which one makes according to one's tradition and upbringing, and still more according to one's faith and experience. The Christian sees ultimate reality revealed in the personal love of God as shown in Christ, the Buddhist in the silence of the Buddha. Yet they agree on two things: that the ultimate mystery is ineffable, and that it should be manifested to human beings.The inscription on a Chinese stone figure of the Buddha, dated 746, reads......'The highest truth is without image. If there were no image at all, however, there would be no way for truth to be manifested. The highest principle is without words. But if there were no words at all, how could principle possibly be revealed?' "
 
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Tariki

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Anyway, I have a bit of time.........so to carry on.....

Just a few words on why reflecting upon different ways, expressions, words can help........at least for me. In my understanding ultimate truth is ineffable and beyond words and can only finally be lived/embodied rather than thought, yet I find that reading and reflection can help point towards it, even help us reach it.............To restrict reading to "one way", to one thought pattern, can lead to what Eckhart has spoken of.....'They do him wrong who take God just in one particular way; they have the way rather than God." The words we read, when restricted to just one expression, can more easily lead to what another person has referred to as 'conceptual imitations of wisdom.' I find that by reading and reflecting upon diverse words and expressions from different traditions - though each seems to me to be pointing at the same ultimate reality - helps me to see that "truth" lies beyond words and concepts.
 
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TWells

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The highest truth is without image. If there were no image at all, however, there would be no way for truth to be manifested. The highest principle is without words. But if there were no words at all, how could principle possibly be revealed?"


I like that quote...ive been having a discussion with a Buddhist friend of mine about Alan Watts writings on symbols and ill be sure to bring it up

In Christ,

Travis
 
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stillsmallvoice

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Hi all!

I must apologize. I was swamped at work today (serious weeds!). I have to run for my bus home (I do 90% of my surfing at the office) & probably won't have time to post a substantive reply until Sunday (a work day here). As an orthodox Jew, I don't use the computer (or just about any other electric/electronic device, for that matter) over Shabbat (i.e. the Sabbath), which, for us runs from sundown on Friday until nightfall on Saturday. We (DW & I) are too busy on Friday cooking, cleaning, etc. getting ready for Shabbat, for me to be on line (DW would clobber me). So, until Sunday! Thank you for your patience!

Be well!

ssv :wave:
 
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Tariki

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twells,

Getting back to the "one way" theme, the quote can suggest the Christian belief in the incarnation.............from the prelude to St John's gospel......"......and the Word was made flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth....". And this can also suggest what is referred to in Christianity as the "scandal of particularity". From a Buddhist perspective, this is exactly what such particularity is.....a scandal!

From my own point of view I see each individual as being a scandal of particularity..........who can be offended by being seen merely as a potential recipient of our own brand of "truth". All of us are in need of love, mercy, forgiveness.......yet these are only words and it is the reality of such words that each needs. Perhaps it is in mutuality that the "reality" is given........and received. Giving by getting, getting by giving..........."lifes most precious realities - love, wisdom - are attained only in the giving of them and are given only in the openess to recieve them" (From "The Spirituality of Imperfection")

In my experience - and looking at the world around me, and back through history - how the reality manifests in each life is beyond any individuals control...............and beyond the confines of any one creed. The wind blows where it will............

Something just prompts me to mention the beautiful words of Thomas Merton, in speaking of the humble man, who "seeks to beg a share of that which everyone has received"...............each has "received", no one need wait for a missionary of whatever religion to approach them before truth be known within the mind/heart. In Buddhism the truth is natural...............the dharma rain falls on all, and each responds according to their individuality.........

"The Lord speaks with but one voice, but all beings, each according to their kind, gain understanding, each thinking that the Lord speaks his own language. This is a special quality of the Buddha. The Lord speaks with but one voice, but all beings, each according to their own ability, act upon it, and each derives the appropriate benefit. This is a special quality of the Buddha" (Vimalakirti Sutra)
 
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