One way or more than one way? This is the question!

[ChetSinger]

Good question. Very good question. Jesus has the answer for you: Jesus said that your co-pilot can NOT enter kingdom of God if he was not born of water and spirit. Is confessing sins and repenting = to be born of water and spirit?
Jesus is very clear, the answer is "no".
It doesn't mean that he will go to hell. But you know from Jesus that the answer is this: nobody can enter Kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit.

Sorry for butting in, but when I became a Christian my church taught that being born of water was simply referring to our physical birth. That is, Jesus was saying that physical birth isn't sufficient but that to enter the kingdom of God we also need spiritual birth. After studying the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus I've come to accept that interpretation myself.

 

[Alla27]

Luke 3:16
John answered them all, "I baptize you with water. But one who is more powerful than I will come, the straps of whose sandals I am not worthy to untie. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. So is it baptism of water required for salvation or the baptism of the Holy Spirit required for salvation?

According to Jesus the answer is: both are required for salvation in kingdom of God. To be born of water AND Spirit = to be born again. If you are not born again you can't enter kingdom of God. I think Jesus is very clear on this.

Requiring anything in addition to faith in Jesus Christ for salvation is a works-based salvation.

To be born again or to be born of water and Spirit is NOT adding something to faith. The same as confessing sins is not adding something to faith. The same as repenting of sins is not adding something to faith. To be baptized or to be born again, to confess sins, to repent is an EXPRESSION of our faith.
If all this is an EXPRESSION of your FAITH than it is required for salvation.

To add anything to the gospel is to say that Jesus' death on the cross was not sufficient to purchase our salvation. To say that baptism is necessary for salvation is to say we must add our own good works and obedience to Christ's death in order to make it sufficient for salvation.

But if you know that baptism or to be born again of water and Spirit is an EXPRESSION of your FAITH and not adding something to faith then you do not say that Jesus's death was not sufficient.

Jesus' death alone paid for our sins (Romans 5:8; 2 Corinthians 5:21). Jesus' payment for our sins is appropriated to our “account” by faith alone (John 3:16; Acts 16:31; Ephesians 2:8-9). Therefore, baptism is an important step of obedience after salvation but cannot be a requirement for salvation.

I agree that Jesus paid for our sins but His death is NOT enough. You have to ADD your FAITH. No faith no salvation in kingdom of God.
There is no claim of such doctrine in the Bible as "faith ALONE" But there is this doctrine in the Bible James 2: 24: by works a man is justified, and NOT of faith ONLY.
So, there is no doctrine "faith ALONE" but there is doctrine "man is not justified by faith ONLY"
Why? why isn't man justified by faith only? James answers: 22 works make faith PERFECT.
So, works is NOT adding something to faith. Works are EXPRESSION of faith. Works make faith perfect.

Yes, there are some verses that seem to indicate baptism as a requirement for salvation. However, since the Bible so clearly tells us that salvation is received by faith alone

Not true. The Bible doesn't claim that we can be saved by faith ALONE. It says that we are saved by BLOOD OF CHRIST THROUGH our faith.
Our works is expression of our faith. Without works there is no faith. There is no salvation. So, works is not adding something to faith. Works is outward expression of faith.

If baptism is necessary for salvation, why would Paul have said, “I am thankful that I did not baptize any of you except Crispus and Gaius” (1 Corinthians 1:14)?

Let's see. Paul said why he was thankful: lest any should say that I had baptized you in mine own name.
That's why. Paul didn't say: because baptism or to be born of water and Spirit is not required for salvation. Paul never said such thing.
Opposite, Paul said this: Hebrews 6:
1 Therefore leaving the doctrine of Christ (by the way it is an error, correctly to say this)
1 Therefore NOT leaving the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection,..
2 Of the doctrine of baptisms,...
Jason, Paul was saying that there is DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMS. Do you know what he was talking about? do you know THIS doctrine of baptisms? If no, don't you want to know what Paul was talking about? do you think that those who listened Paul knew this doctrine of baptisms?
Peter said this in 1 Pet 3: 21 ...even baptism also now save us. Of course, Peter was preaching this doctrine of baptisms. The doctrine Paul was preaching. The doctrine of Christ - no man can enter kingdom of God if he is born of water and Spirit(doctrine of baptisms).

Why would he have said, “For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel—not with words of human wisdom, lest the cross of Christ be emptied of its power” (1 Corinthians 1:17)?

If Christ didn't send Paul to baptize but to preach it doesn't mean that baptism or to be born of water and Spirit is not required for salvation in kingdom of God. it doesn't mean that Christ didn't send the rest of the Apostles to baptize people.

Does Acts 2:38 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes. It says: Be baptized EVERY ONE OF YOU and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.( Jesus's doctrine of baptisms: No man can enter kingdom of God if he is not born of water and Spirit).

Does Mark 16:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes. Christ's doctrine of faith and baptisms: believe and be baptized(be born of water and Spirit) and you shall be saved.

Does 1 Peter 3:21 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes. Baptism or being born again doth now save us. Doctrine of baptisms.

Does John 3:5 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes. Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he can not enter into the kingdom of God.

Does Acts 22:16 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes. It says to be baptized or to be born again. Without being born again you can't enter kingdom of God.

Does Galatians 3:27 teach that baptism is necessary for salvation?

Yes, it says that those who have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. You are heir according to the promise.

Baptism is not necessary for salvation. Baptism does not save from sin but from a bad conscience. In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter clearly taught that baptism was not a ceremonial act of physical purification, but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Baptism is the symbol of what has already occurred in the heart and life of one who has trusted Christ as Savior (Romans 6:3-5; Galatians 3:27; Colossians 2:12). Baptism is an important step of obedience that every Christian should take. Baptism cannot be a requirement for salvation. To make it such is an attack on the sufficiency of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

To be baptized or to be born of water and Spirit is not adding to faith. It is an expression of faith.

To be baptize is SYMBOLIC expression of our covenant with God. This covenant is not adding something to faith. This SYMBOLIC ritual is outward expression of our faith and not "adding something to faith".
The same as repenting of sins and confessing sins is NOT adding something to faith but an expression of faith.[/quote]

 

[Alla27]

Sorry for butting in, but when I became a Christian my church taught that being born of water was simply referring to our physical birth. That is, Jesus was saying that physical birth isn't sufficient but that to enter the kingdom of God we also need spiritual birth. After studying the conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus I've come to accept that interpretation myself.

I don't see Jesus saying that to be born of water is not sufficient to enter kingdom of God.
But I see Jesus says: except a man born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter kingdom of God. I don't see that to be born of water is not sufficient and that is why to be born of the Spirit is also needed.
I also see that Apostles baptized people in water and by the Holy Ghost. Jesus: man has to be born of water(water baptism) and of the Spirit(baptism of Spirit).

 

[Alla27]

That's a biiiiiiiiiiig subject and I don't think I can do it justice. But I'll try to start.

In Christian theology Jesus is the Word of God and there are some implications regarding that, especially involving the creation. When you read Genesis you see how God created everything by speaking. That is, his Word has creative power. John expanded on that in the introduction to his gospel, about how everything was created through the Word of God, including the human race itself.

So the Word of God, who was later incarnated as Jesus of Nazareth, was the agent of creation for Adam and Eve. And for the earth. And for the universe.

It wasn't only Christians who wrote that the Word of God was the agent of creation. Here is Jewish rabbinical commentary from the Jerusalem Targum:


As the agent of creation, the Word of God is in a special position between ourselves and the Father. And the Father has decreed that anyone who wants to approach him must approach via the Word, since Jesus said that "no one comes to the Father except through me".

That was a mouthful. Was it helpful?

So, it doesn't matter if I have faith in Christ or I don't have faith in Christ I still will come to Father. Correct?

 

[ChetSinger]

So, it doesn't matter if I have faith in Christ or I don't have faith in Christ I still will come to Father. Correct?

I'm not sure I'm following you, so I'll summarize my own beliefs: I think non-Christians will face the judgment of the nations in Matthew 25, whereas Christians whose names are already written in the book of life will face a different kind of judgment, described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Does that clear things up?

 

[ChetSinger]

I don't see Jesus saying that to be born of water is not sufficient to enter kingdom of God.
But I see Jesus says: except a man born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter kingdom of God. I don't see that to be born of water is not sufficient and that is why to be born of the Spirit is also needed.
I also see that Apostles baptized people in water and by the Holy Ghost. Jesus: man has to be born of water(water baptism) and of the Spirit(baptism of Spirit).

I haven't been clear. According to the church I first became a Christian in, being born of water represents our physical birth and being born of the Spirit represents our spiritual birth.

That is, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again (John 3:3) Nicodemus replied as if Jesus were demanding that we undergo a second physical birth (John 3:4). Jesus replied that no, the second birth is instead a spiritual one (John 3:5). That is, "born of water" wasn't referring to baptism but to our first birth.

Fyi, this is a different viewpoint than many, perhaps most, churches.

 

[Alla27]

I'm not sure I'm following you, so I'll summarize my own beliefs: I think non-Christians will face the judgment of the nations in Matthew 25, whereas Christians whose names are already written in the book of life will face a different kind of judgment, described by Paul in 1 Corinthians 3:10-15. Does that clear things up?

Yes, I understand what you say. So, some people from the nations who never knew about Christ, didn't know the Gospel, didn't confess their sins, didn't repent, were NOT born again, but were good people will enter kingdom of God some another way, different than through Jesus Christ. They will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others and NOT through their FAITH IN CHRIST.
So, words of Jesus that He is the way to ALL people are not true. Jesus's words that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter kingdom of God are not true.
Because according to your understanding of Matthew it will be people who were not born again but they will be on the right hand and will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others.
Interesting. I didn't know some people understand the Bible this way. Very interesting.

 

[Alla27]

I haven't been clear. According to the church I first became a Christian in, being born of water represents our physical birth and being born of the Spirit represents our spiritual birth.

That is, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he had to be born again (John 3:3) Nicodemus replied as if Jesus were demanding that we undergo a second physical birth (John 3:4). Jesus replied that no, the second birth is instead a spiritual one (John 3:5). That is, "born of water" wasn't referring to baptism but to our first birth.

Fyi, this is a different viewpoint than many, perhaps most, churches.

Thanks for sharing your understanding. I believe that Jesus was referring to water baptism. I will share with you why I believe that He was referring to water baptism.
Water baptism symbolizes death of an old man who is sinner and birth and also resurrection of new man.
When we completely immerse in water it symbolizes grave and death of old man(sinner)/spiritual death. When we are coming straight forward out of the water it symbolizes NEW BIRTH, birth of new man. Man who is ready to change his life style. This new life style is in accordance with God's will. It means he starts to follow Jesus's example. It also represents physical death and physical resurrection.
Jesus Himself was baptized. Not because He needed it but to show us how we have to be born of water AGAIN.
After this symbolic cleansing ritual - water baptism, we have another one. Baptism by the Spirit and fire.
When we are baptized by the Spirit it is like a fire.
The earth was cleansed by the water- flood(water baptism). Before the Second Coming the earth will be cleansed with the fire(baptism of the Spirit and fire).
Symbolism, symbolism. God loves symbolism. He teaches us by using symbols. But not all people understand these symbolism correctly.

 

[Sojourner1]

Yes, I understand what you say. So, some people from the nations who never knew about Christ, didn't know the Gospel, didn't confess their sins, didn't repent, were NOT born again, but were good people will enter kingdom of God some another way, different than through Jesus Christ. They will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others and NOT through their FAITH IN CHRIST.
So, words of Jesus that He is the way to ALL people are not true. Jesus's words that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he cannot enter kingdom of God are not true.
Because according to your understanding of Matthew it will be people who were not born again but they will be on the right hand and will enter kingdom of God just because they were nice to others.
Interesting. I didn't know some people understand the Bible this way. Very interesting.

I think you added quite a bit to this (lots of assumptions of what he meant), I didn't see him say any of what you are assuming in his post. All he said was that there are two different judgements.

 

[Alla27]

I think you added quite a bit to this (lots of assumptions of what he meant), I didn't see him say any of what you are assuming in his post. All he said was that there are two different judgments.

I understood him correctly, I think. One judgment is through faith in Christ. Jesus is the way to Father.

Another judgment is through being nice to others. Being nice to others is the way to Father.

 

[Sojourner1]

I understood him correctly, I think. One judgment is through faith in Christ. Jesus is the way to Father.

Another judgment is through being nice to others. Being nice to others is the way to Father.

Being nice to others as a way to the Father is completely unscriptural.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

 

[Alla27]

Being nice to others as a way to the Father is completely unscriptural.

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

Look, I am told that Matthew 25 is telling us about judgment of non-Christians. In this scripture it says that some of these non-Christians will enter kingdom of God. So, they will come to Father.
Did they have faith in Christ? No. Did they feed the hungry? Yes. So, they were nice to others. That is why they will come to Father. Not through Christ, but through being nice to others.
Is this what you are telling me?

 

[Alla27]

So, how do those who never heard of Christ, never had faith in Him and it is not their fault, can come to Father?
I am born in Americas in the 1st century BC. I died when I was 16. How can I come to Father if NOBODY can enter Father's kingdom except being born again? except through faith in Christ?

 

[Sojourner1]

Look, I am told that Matthew 25 is telling us about judgment of non-Christians. In this scripture it says that some of these non-Christians will enter kingdom of God. So, they will come to Father.
Did they have faith in Christ? No. Did they feed the hungry? Yes. So, they were nice to others. That is why they will come to Father. Not through Christ, but through being nice to others.
Is this what you are telling me?

That is not what Matthew 25 is telling us about judging non-Christians. It's really more about people who think that because they are doing these good things that they will get into heaven. People who think they are Christians because they do good works, but they actually aren't Christians.

 

[Alla27]

That is not what Matthew 25 is telling us about judging non-Christians. It's really more about people who think that because they are doing these good things that they will get into heaven. People who think they are Christians because they do good works, but they actually aren't Christians.

Exactly. Thank you!
Then what does it have to do with my question:
How can someone who was born in Americas in the 1st century BC, died at age 16, who never heard about Christ, never was born again enter God's kingdom?
Jesus said that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he can NOT enter kingdom of God.

 

[Sojourner1]

Exactly. Thank you!
Then what does it have to do with my question:
How can someone who was born in Americas in the 1st century BC, died at age 16, who never heard about Christ, never was born again enter God's kingdom?
Jesus said that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he can NOT enter kingdom of God.

People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them. I believe that if a person were to truly seek God based on the revelation given to them, then God would respond to that person and enable them to be saved. God says that if we seek Him we will find him.

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

 

[Alla27]

People are responsible to God for what God has already revealed to them.

What did God reveal to a 16 year old girl who lived in Americas in the 1st century before Christ? and HOW?

I believe that if a person were to truly seek God based on the revelation given to them, then God would respond to that person and enable them to be saved. God says that if we seek Him we will find him.

what kind of revelations? give me some examples? and HOW?
Did Jesus say the truth that EXCEPT a man born of water and of the Spirit, he can NOT enter kingdom of God?
How could this girl from Americas who lived in the 1st century before Christ be born of water and the Spirit? be born again?

 

[Sojourner1]

What did God reveal to a 16 year old girl who lived in Americas in the 1st century before Christ? and HOW?

what kind of revelations? give me some examples? and HOW?
Did Jesus say the truth that EXCEPT a man born of water and of the Spirit, he can NOT enter kingdom of God?
How could this girl from Americas who lived in the 1st century before Christ be born of water and the Spirit? be born again?

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

Regarding being born of water and spirit:

The second common interpretation of this passage and the one that best fits the overall context, not only of this passage but of the Bible as a whole, is the one that sees the phrase “born of water and the Spirit” as both describing different aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be “born again” or “born from above.” So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Spirit,” He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2,7; Ezekiel 36:25) and the New Testament (John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22), water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html​

 

[Hawkins]

Exactly. Thank you!
Then what does it have to do with my question:
How can someone who was born in Americas in the 1st century BC, died at age 16, who never heard about Christ, never was born again enter God's kingdom?

Jesus said that except a man is born of water and of the Spirit he can NOT enter kingdom of God.

It is a matter of perspectives of expressing the same scenario. Jesus is the only way from the legal perspective while second born is the process or symbol when you are saved.

No humans can be saved without a covenant. On the other hand, the salvation power of a covenant is ultimately from Jesus Christ. By default, we (Jews or Gentiles) are all subject to an older covenant which is born with us. So if a human never heard of a newer covenant, he needs to fulfill the requirements of the older covenant in order to be saved. It is however predicted (according to the Bible) that no one can be saved this way as human branches are believed to be so far away from God that they can hardly fulfill the requirements of the older covenants.

The only hope for that American girl is for humans (Christians) to spread the Good News to the 4 corners of the world, and for her to make a choice with consent to subject herself to the New Covenant.

 

[Alla27]

Romans 1:20
For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.

There were some people in the USSR who died and before they died God did NOT reveal to them anything about Himself. They did NOT know a thing about Him. How is that they are without any excuses? Why didn't God reveal to them about Himself anything? How are they going to enter God's kingdom if except a man is born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter kingdom of God?
how did you learn about God? how would you learn about Him if you didn't have your Bible? you probably belived in some false god like many do.
it is easy to say "you can know about TRUE God without the Bible" when you are born surrounded by Christians and by living in the country where there is the Bible.

Regarding being born of water and spirit:

The second common interpretation of this passage and the one that best fits the overall context, not only of this passage but of the Bible as a whole, is the one that sees the phrase “born of water and the Spirit” as both describing different aspects of the same spiritual birth, or of what it means to be “born again” or “born from above.” So, when Jesus told Nicodemus that he must “be born of water and the Spirit,” He was not referring to literal water (i.e. baptism or the amniotic fluid in the womb), but was referring to the need for spiritual cleansing or renewal. Throughout the Old Testament (Psalm 51:2,7; Ezekiel 36:25) and the New Testament (John 13:10; 15:3; 1 Corinthians 6:11; Hebrews 10:22), water is often used figuratively of spiritual cleansing or regeneration that is brought forth by the Holy Spirit, through the Word of God, at the moment of salvation (Ephesians 5:26; Titus 3:5).
http://www.gotquestions.org/baptism-John-3-5.html​

I am not asking about your interpretation of what "to be born of water is". How can someone who never heard the Word Of God enter kingdom of God if he or she was not born again, was not born of water and of the Spirit?