One thing i struggle with - predestination

lands21 · Nov 11, 2003

He is everyone's savior, but not all are saved.

wonder111 · Nov 11, 2003

jeffderuyter21 said:
He is everyone's savior, but not all are saved.

than why does it say especially, and not "only"? it's the wording that gets me

middo · Nov 11, 2003

ok, my last question on this. Why then, if he is a loving and merciful God, who loves ALL mankind, and why, if Jesus dies and rose again to conquer/pay for ALL sin does he only choose a few? This i suppose it just what really gets me. I trust him, i wont argue the point etc, im just befounded at WHY But, in God i trust

wonder111 · Nov 11, 2003

middo said:
ok, my last question on this. Why then, if he is a loving and merciful God, who loves ALL mankind, and why, if Jesus dies and rose again to conquer/pay for ALL sin does he only choose a few? This i suppose it just what really gets me. I trust him, i wont argue the point etc, im just befounded at WHY But, in God i trust

well that's just it, there are many Christians (some on these forums) that believe He will save everyone, just in a way we don't understand. Kind of like the parable about the camel passing through the eye of a needle. That's impossible for us, but somehow it's possible through God. Other's believe differentlly. I guess we have to meditate on the word ourselves to truly find the answer.

losh · Nov 11, 2003

middo said:
ok, my last question on this. Why then, if he is a loving and merciful God, who loves ALL mankind, and why, if Jesus dies and rose again to conquer/pay for ALL sin does he only choose a few?

God gives everything abundantly. The sun shines both over the wicked and righteous. Christ's sacrifice is enough to save all mankind. But the Lord has predestinated his chosen people to be conformed to the image of His Son and these are going to be ultimately saved.
God's idea of justice is entirely different from the human. In fact from the human perspective God is not fair at all. Christ on the cross is the greatest injustice. But as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are God's ways are higher than the human ways.

lands21 · Nov 11, 2003

If God used man's version of justice, we would all be going to hell, and Jesus never would have died for us.

Benedicta00 · Nov 11, 2003

middo said:
ok, my last question on this. Why then, if he is a loving and merciful God, who loves ALL mankind, and why, if Jesus dies and rose again to conquer/pay for ALL sin does he only choose a few? This i suppose it just what really gets me. I trust him, i wont argue the point etc, im just befounded at WHY But, in God i trust

He doesnt choose a few. His blood shed is for humanity, for all of mankind, not for specific individuals.

His gift if free to any and all but one must chose that, one can not chose that unless God calls him first and God has called all of us, not just a few, but not all will accept.

middo · Nov 11, 2003

so shelb5 your NOT a believer in predestination i take it? According to predestination not all are called?

love&amp;forgiveness · Nov 11, 2003

God may know the outcome to this world and may know who will and who won't be saved.but God is God and is in no time zone and is not restricted by things like we are.He gave us minds to chose and we are to chose Him.God knows all for God created all , we are only a small spec of His creations and have not the understanding to understand His understanding.We are simply told to trust in Him and He will take care of us.

losh · Nov 12, 2003

I believe that God's salvation does not depend on man's behaviour. It does not depend even upon what men choose. God wouldn't be God if His purpose depended upon the choice of men.

Benedicta00 · Nov 12, 2003

losh said:
I believe that God's salvation does not depend on man's behaviour. It does not depend even upon what men choose. God wouldn't be God if His purpose depended upon the choice of men.

Gods purpose is to have us love him freely. He created us in his mage and likeness, that is we have a spirit likes his, that it is immortal like his, and that our will is free like his.

This is how he created us so this is his sovereign will, that we choose him from our own will. Love is not love if it is not given freely. Didnt Jesus death teach and prove this?

No greater love can one have then to lay down his life for his friends and Jesus does it willingly as a human person. He took on our humanity and God did not force on him the choice to die for us, he chose it willingly, that is why he was so pleasing to God. What would have been pleasing to God if Jesus was not fully human with free will who chose to die for us being obedient to Gods will?

What is so pleasing with God, having to choose for us to love him???

When we chose Gods will over our will, then we imitate Jesus, the perfect God Man who also freely chose Gods will over his own.

Agony in the garden- Jesus says, not as I will but as you will. Jesus was a man, he took on our humanity, he had free will to chose God and so do we.

We are being conformed into the image of his son when we do what he did, we chose freely to love and obey God.

Benedicta00 · Nov 12, 2003

middo said:
so shelb5 your NOT a believer in predestination i take it? According to predestination not all are called?

No I am a believer in predestination, but not the Calvinist view of it.

Properly understood, God has predestine certain souls to fulfil is will but he did not leave them un-regenerated nor did he regenerate spcific souls, that is not how I believe it works. Salvation comes through accepting Christ by faith and relying on his mecry. It does not come because God picked you out, he picks all of us out to come to know him, the bible says that is his desire.

What he did, since all is present to him now, there is no past and future, everything is present to him now, he uses our free choices in his plan, he does not interfere with our free will.

The elect are the ones he knows accepts him so he grants them the grace they need to persevere, he will always call them back to repentance he will always give them that grace. They are assured salvation because god will always grant them his graces.

The ones he knows do not accept him and never will his grace is sufficient to save the man if the man is willing but God may not give him the grace of persevering because the man does not respond and God knows this.

Those are the reprobates and the elect, the ones who accept him and reject him according to Gods knowledge.

losh · Nov 12, 2003

God's purpose is His chosen people, His Church, a holy nation consisting of men and women who have the character of Christ.

God does not seek our human love. What He does value is the love of His Son. This kind of love natural men do not possess. This we can receive only when God finds us, touches us and gives us repentance, faith, and the ability to choose His will.

love&amp;forgiveness · Nov 13, 2003

Christ was sacrificed so all can be saved ,it's our job as Christians to spread this word to all ,so all have the choice.
we all have the ability to chose His will ,but some chose their own way.
God gave us the abilty to chose but it's up to us what we chose if we seek His love above all else we will find it.
but if we seek to please ourselves and our own desires ,we are then putting these over Gods love drowning it with our selfish desires.

Benedicta00 · Nov 13, 2003

losh said:
God's purpose is His chosen people, His Church, a holy nation consisting of men and women who have the character of Christ.

God does not seek our human love. What He does value is the love of His Son. This kind of love natural men do not possess. This we can receive only when God finds us, touches us and gives us repentance, faith, and the ability to choose His will.

Cite?

Axion · Nov 13, 2003

losh said:
God's purpose is His chosen people, His Church, a holy nation consisting of men and women who have the character of Christ.

God does not seek our human love. What He does value is the love of His Son. This kind of love natural men do not possess. This we can receive only when God finds us, touches us and gives us repentance, faith, and the ability to choose His will.

The problem with this theory is that it turns God from a loving Father who wants all to be saved, into a cruel tyrant who condemns many of his children to eternal torment for no reason.

According to supporters of Calvinistic predestination, it is God who has actually decided what choices everyone will make. God decided at the beginning of time, without reference to anyone's merits, that certain people would be given grace to live a Christian Life and be saved, and that all the rest would be denied that grace and be eternally ******. If you are predestined to be ****** there is nothing you can do about it. God's salvation is a gift that He bestows on who He chooses. Human Free Will is only an illusion. Christ died, not to save everyone, but only to save a chosen, predestined, "elect."

But if anyone says that God chooses those to be saved, and those to be condemned with no consideration as to their personal merits or choices, then they argue a God who creates people simply to condemn them. This is not the God of the Gospels.

Catholics and many others believe instead that God offers His grace to ALL, and that His predestination is based on his foreknowledge of the future free choices of each individual.

Romans 8.29 For whom he foreknew, he also predestinated to be made conformable to the image of his Son; that he might be the first born amongst many brethren. And whom he predestinated, them he also called. And whom he called, them he also justified. And whom he justified, them he also glorified

Calvinism seems directly opposed to the whole tenor of Jesus's teaching on Good Works and Jesus's constant exhortations to us to make the right choices. Why should He have spent so much of his ministry on this sort of teaching if we did not have the Free Will to profit by it? This is one reason why Free Will has always been so important to the historic Church, and why our free response to God's message is vitally important.

We can see that the Bible also denies the idea of irresistible grace, showing that our Free Will does affect its action:

2 Cor 6: 1 As God’s fellow workers we urge you not to receive God’s grace in vain.

The Bible shows clearly that God wants everyone to be saved, and that He has not predestined anyone for damnation.

1 Timothy 2.3-4: This is good, and it is acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour, who desires ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

2 Peter 3; 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.

losh · Nov 14, 2003

Shelb5 said:
Cite?

Jn 17:21; Eph 1:3-10, 22-23; 4:11-15; 5:25, 30;
Col 2:19; 1Co 12:27; 1Pe 2:4-5, 9-10;

Ps 53:3; Ro 3:23;
Eze 11:19; Ro 6:4; 2Co 5:17; Ga 6:15; Ep 4:24; Col 3:10; Ro 8:29;

Benedicta00 · Nov 14, 2003

losh said:
Jn 17:21; Eph 1:3-10, 22-23; 4:11-15; 5:25, 30;
Col 2:19; 1Co 12:27; 1Pe 2:4-5, 9-10;

Ps 53:3; Ro 3:23;
Eze 11:19; Ro 6:4; 2Co 5:17; Ga 6:15; Ep 4:24; Col 3:10; Ro 8:29;

John 17
21that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me.

This is supposed to prove that God chose only is certain people to be saved? Seems to me Jesus is praying that all of his Christians be one, but I can not see where he is saying that he only died for a few people who will only be allowed to be Christians and not all of mankind.

Ephesians 1

Spiritual Blessings in Christ

3Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5he[1] predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will-- 6to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God's grace 8that he lavished on us with all wisdom and understanding. 9And he[2] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10to be put into effect when the times will have reached their fulfillment--to bring all things in heaven and on earth together under one head, even Christ.

22And God placed all things under his feet and appointed him to be head over everything for the church, 23which is his body, the fullness of him who fills everything in every way.

Okay, where is the part that says he only chose certain people and that Christ did not die for all of mankind?

Ephesians 4
11It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
14Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. 15Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.

Where can I find in this that God only ordains to save who he chooses and the rest do not have any shot at salvation?

Ephesians 5
22Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. 23For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.
25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26to make her holy, cleansing[2] her by the washing with water through the word, 27and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29After all, no one ever hated his own body, but he feeds and cares for it, just as Christ does the church-- 30for we are members of his body. 31"For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh."[3] 32This is a profound mystery--but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

Colossians 2
19He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow.

Where is God only limiting salvation to a few in here?

1 Corinthians 12

27Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.

This is supposed to convince us that God does not send his son to save all of mankind but only a few?

The Living Stone and a Chosen People

4As you come to him, the living Stone--rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him-- 5you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ.

9But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. 10Once you were not a people, but now you are the people of God; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

But where does God say salvation is not for all people?

Psalm 53
3 Everyone has turned away,
they have together become corrupt;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.

Romans 3
23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,

So where does it say that God will not save all me by sending his son to die for all but he will only save a few by limiting his sons death to just those?

Gamecock · Nov 15, 2003

Well, just remember that Paul chides us in Romans for questioning Go's soveriegn Choice

Benedicta00 · Nov 15, 2003

Gamecock said:
Well, just remember that Paul chides us in Romans for questioning Go's soveriegn Choice

Could you cite because I am not familiar with the bible even saying that God makes a sovereign choice to not allow certain souls to be saved?

Any particular reason why God would not allow certain souls to have a chance at salvation?

One thing i struggle with - predestination

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