One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

Phantasman · Oct 1, 2017

mark kennedy said:
Ok now your talking about three things; water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of believers. I don't really mind referring to the Holy Spirit as our mother but Jesus called him the Comforter.

I see two not three. Baptism is a promise from us. The Holy Ghost is a gift from the Father.

The Gospel of Philip puts it this way:
If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything, and says "I am a Christian," he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy Spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded. This is the way it happens to one when he experiences a mystery.

Matthew 7:22 explained a little clearer. Water does nothing.

mark kennedy · Oct 1, 2017

Adzinfi said:
Mother...just quit the blasphemy before we become to deceived to do so.

Bear in mind this was not what I called the Holy Spirit

Phantasman said:
the Holy Ghost becomes the Mother that we are sons of the Father. It's what made Jesus a Christ. The Chrism.

He called it the Chrism which is a Catholic doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit. I didn't see it as blasphemous, just unbiblical.

Adzinfi · Oct 1, 2017

Phantasman said:
I see two not three. Baptism is a promise from us. The Holy Ghost is a gift from the Father.

The Gospel of Philip puts it this way:
If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything, and says "I am a Christian," he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy Spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded. This is the way it happens to one when he experiences a mystery.

Matthew 7:22 explained a little clearer. Water does nothing.

There is no gospel of Phillip.
There is good reason it's not included in The bible.
Go away with your non biblical quotes.

redleghunter · Oct 1, 2017

Adzinfi said:
Your playing games.
Lets get to brass nails..
A person becomes a born again Christian .walking in and following the holy spirit.
Forsaking all sin as the spirit makes it known to them and not returning it.(sanctification) then for whatever event or reason they enjoy a sin (maybe porn or drugs or alcohol or money) they don't deal with it and cease.
They continue in it.it grows and gets worse. They make excuse and begin to reason it away they have moved into self deception .still they continue to practice that sin even though they know it IS sin .Now they are in a perpetual willful state of rebellion.
Then Suddenly one day the Lord returns ..in a day when they expect Not.and there they are laying with thier neighbors wife...
I assure you.they will not be saved no matter they began on that road to life and believed .no matter they continued to attend church heal the sick cast out devils. They left that path of truth when they chose to continue in thier sin and they self justified doing so with I was doctrines.
They will not be saved And you will never ever convince me otherwise.

Now to be fair..you might argue.they never were saved. And I would agree.
And that is frightening because it suggests most of the western styles church is also not saved.
So each of us should take account .trembling.and search out hearts whether we are IN the faith.

Because if we continue in the practice of sin .we are not yet saved.
We have not yet forsaken “our own way” and set out to follow JESUS.

Best post since the OP.

2 Corinthians 13:5 supports your last few paragraphs.

All that I would add is we have a loving and gracious God.

He does take the bull by the horns of those who are His. That is the paradox we deal with which is not confusing to His will.

Jesus Christ is a lover and pursuer of His own.

We should know His Holiness and live accordingly.

Our pursuit is not alone as He gives us the power to overcome the flesh.

I will admit I am not perfect. If someone here is please chime in. Our pursuit is to be like Him. We need to be inn the same boat with Him heading "true north" and not on a ship heading to the South Pole.

I've been staunch in my presentations here because God is Sovereign in His salvation. I take that as confidence He will keep those who love Him. Those who love Him do what He says. The sheep will trust and obey.

Although the thread is about eternal security, I have presented above what is called the preservation of the sheep. Such does not mean we can take the Holy Spirit into a brothel and be "ok" with Him. It means when we sin we are assured to be convicted of our sin by the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we are not, we should examine ourselves to see if we have Jesus Christ in us.

So thank you for your post as you put a stake in the ground which can now produce more fruitful discussion. You have killed the antinomian straw man so many have rode for pages. Now we can all discuss God's Holiness, His beauty and love and how we as brethren pursue the holy calling. (Philippians 3:14)

God Bless.

Adzinfi · Oct 1, 2017

Its

mark kennedy said:
Bear in mind this was not what I called the Holy Spirit

He called it the Chrism which is a Catholic doctrine regarding the Holy Spirit. I didn't see it as blasphemous, just unbiblical.

Blasphemy .dont worry about that.
Any mention of mother in relation to the Godhead is blasphemous

mark kennedy · Oct 1, 2017

Phantasman said:
I see two not three. Baptism is a promise from us. The Holy Ghost is a gift from the Father.

The Gospel of Philip puts it this way:
If one goes down into the water and comes up without having received anything, and says "I am a Christian," he has borrowed the name at interest. But if he receives the Holy Spirit, he has the name as a gift. He who has received a gift does not have to give it back, but of him who has borrowed it at interest, payment is demanded. This is the way it happens to one when he experiences a mystery.

Matthew 7:22 explained a little clearer. Water does nothing.

I don't regard the Gospel of Philip as canonical and I definitely count three. The gifts and offices ordained and manifest by the Holy Spirit is one. Water baptism is another and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something distinctly different from the manifestations of the Holy Spirit. The Apostles and disciples were already saved when the Holy Spirit came to them on Pentecost. At conversion you hear the gospel and receive the Holy Spirit, now following that there can be many of these baptisms or multiple gifts. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit is something distinctly different even though each member of the body receives a gift of grace at salvation. The thing is, you can be baptized in the Holy Spirit in the sense you are empowered for service and never really be indwelled.

mark kennedy · Oct 1, 2017

Adzinfi said:
Its

Blasphemy .dont worry about that.
Any mention of mother in relation to the Godhead is blasphemous

I thought he was just being metaphorical myself, still don't see the blasphemous part.

Adzinfi · Oct 1, 2017

redleghunter said:
Best post since the OP.

2 Corinthians 13:5 supports your last few paragraphs.

All that I would add is we have a loving and gracious God.

He does take the bull by the horns of those who are His. That is the paradox we deal with which is not confusing to His will.

Jesus Christ is a lover and pursuer of His own.

We should know His Holiness and live accordingly.

Our pursuit is not alone as He gives us the power to overcome the flesh.

I will admit I am not perfect. If someone here is please chime in. Our pursuit is to be like Him. We need to be inn the same boat with Him heading "true north" and not on a ship heading to the South Pole.

I've been staunch in my presentations here because God is Sovereign in His salvation. I take that as confidence He will keep those who love Him. Those who love Him do what He says. The sheep will trust and obey.

Although the thread is about eternal security, I have presented above what is called the preservation of the sheep. Such does not mean we can take the Holy Spirit into a brothel and be "ok" with Him. It means when we sin we are assured to be convicted of our sin by the indwelling Holy Spirit. If we are not, we should examine ourselves to see if we have Jesus Christ in us.

So thank you for your post as you put a stake in the ground which can now produce more fruitful discussion. You have killed the antinomian straw man so many have rode for pages. Now we can all discuss God's Holiness, His beauty and love and how we as brethren pursue the holy calling. (Philippians 3:14)

God Bless.

I am glad we could come to an agreeing point in our differing perceptions of the same thing.

Adzinfi · Oct 1, 2017

mark kennedy said:
I thought he was just being metaphorical myself, still don't see the blasphemous part.

We must not hijack a thread.
Use pm or start a new one.
@Phantasman too.

Lizzie18 · Oct 1, 2017

Adzinfi said:
You need to quote whole texts ...to whom is there no condemnation...finish the sentance

Sentence. I did finish my sentence in the way I chose to. I will allow you the same privilege. God bless.

JoeP222w · Oct 1, 2017

Oldmantook said:
Your reasoning is not logical. Yes true believers are known by their fruit. However it is illogical to state that just because SOME who don't have fruit were never believers in the first place, to then claim that ALL who don't have fruit were never believers. The scriptures teach that some will apostatize; depart and fall away from the faith. How can an unbeliever apostatize/depart from the faith if he/she never belonged to the faith in the first place? It is impossible to fall away from something you were never united with. Only genuine believers can apostatize from the faith.

No. If a believer can fall away from faith and lose their eternal salvation, then God fails at saving people and God does not fail. Or worse, their faith is based in their own efforts, which cause them to fall away, because salvation is not based in works, they never had salvation.

Either the tree will produce good fruit or it will not. All who are in Christ produce fruit. Those who do not produce fruit are not in Christ.

jerry kelso · Oct 1, 2017

~Cassia~ said:
To miss the coming kingdom and to forfeit our birthright does not mean that we will perish. It means that we will lose the reward but not our salvation. We will suffer loss but still will be saved, yet so as through fire 1 Corinthians 3:14-15.

This is the basic concept on which all five warnings in Hebrews are given and with which they are all pervaded. All the negative points of these warnings are related to the suffering of the loss of the reward in the coming kingdom, whereas all the positive points are related to the reward and enjoyment of the kingdom. All seven epistles in Revelation 2 and 3 conclude with this same concept — the reward of the kingdom or the loss of it.

Here's a list of scripture pertaining to rewards:
Matthew 5:20; Matthew 7:21-23; Matthew 16:24-27; Matthew 19:23-30; Matthew 24:46-51; Matthew 25:11-13, 21, 23, Matthew 25:26-30; Luke 12:42-48; Luke 19:17, 19, Luke 19:22-27; Romans 14:10, 12; 1 Corinthians 3:8, 13-15; 1 Corinthians 4:5; 1 Corinthians 9:24-27; 2 Corinthians 5:10; 2 Timothy 4:7-8; Hebrews 2:3; Hebrews 4:1, 9, 11;Hebrews 6:4-8; Hebrews 10:26-31, 35-39; Hebrews 12:16-17, 28-29; and Revelation 2:7, 10-11, 17, 26-27; Revelation 3:4-5, 11-12, 20; Revelation 22:12.
Not everyone`s work is as a fire-plucker either ...

cassia,

1. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15 happens during the tribulation Revelation 11:18.

2. 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 basically says that says your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit and whoever defiles their temple him shall God destroy because the temple is holy.
Hebrews 12:14 says without Holiness no man shall see the Lord.

3. I don't have time to go through the scriptures about rewards but I sure don't see the one in Galatians 6 that talks about sowing to the flesh and reaping corruption and reaping to the Spirit for eternal life.
One has to show both sides of the coin otherwise one is not rightly dividing the word. Jerry Kelso

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2017

Rik Brooks said:
and herein lies one of my pet peeves - redefining or expanding words.

Believe means precisely what it means. I can tell by the structure of your post that you have more than a casual understanding of the word believe. I would bet a dollar to a donut that you know full well that believe does not mean to believe and follow but means precisely what it means.

I see that several times you redefine words in your post. Why do you do that?

And faith without works is dead (James 2:17).
This makes sense because if somebody is not truly loyal to God by their actions, then it shows that their belief is not truly genuine.

Believing in Jesus is more than just believing in the person of Jesus Christ. It is believing everything He taught and commanded of us, too. For example: If God told Bob to sit in a porch chair that he knew could not hold his weight, and God said to trust Him that the chair will not break and Bob refused to sit in the chair (and yet Bob said he trusted God). Can you say that Bob was truly trusting or believing in God? No. It is the same when we see God's Commands within His Word and we refuse to do them. We are not trusting or believing God if we refuse to do what He says.

Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say?

Oldmantook · Oct 1, 2017

JoeP222w said:
No. If a believer can fall away from faith and lose their eternal salvation, then God fails at saving people and God does not fail. Or worse, their faith is based in their own efforts, which cause them to fall away, because salvation is not based in works, they never had salvation.

Either the tree will produce good fruit or it will not. All who are in Christ produce fruit. Those who do not produce fruit are not in Christ.

God does not fail but man can certainly fail.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2017

Femi Williams said:
“The Scriptures teach that our salvation is a past, present, and future salvation. We have been saved, and we shall be saved. We were changed into new creations when we were saved, we are being changed through a process of sanctification, and we shall be changed at the resurrection.” – Dr. Michael Youssef

In other words, this means the gift of Salvation is Triple locked by:

God the Son, (Lock 1): Jesus said in John 10:28, “I give them eternal life and they shall never perish. No one can snatch them out of My hand.

God the Father, (Lock 2): Jesus said in John 10:29, “My Father who has given them to me is greater than all, no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand

The condition is if you are following Jesus. See verse 27 (John 10:27).

You said:
The Holy Spirit, (Lock 3): Later on, Jesus said in John 14;16, “And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Helper, who will be with you forever”

Blessed Assurance {Part II}

Did Jesus say this would be true for every single believer no matter if they sinned greatly before God and they refused to repent? No. Of course not. But you have to assume that in order for it to be true.

Oldmantook · Oct 1, 2017

redleghunter said:
Actually Jesus makes it clear He goes out and searches and finds. The sheep did not find its way back. That's why he dined with sinners. To find the sick and lost. The ones who hear His voice follow Him. To follow Him we must be like Him.

The sheep was found when he repented. To claim that sinners are found and restored to the flock absent repentance is heresy.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2017

Fish Catcher Jim said:
One in the same.
Blessings

I don't believe so. God is spirit and God is not literal words on a page. Scripture is merely the recorded thoughts of God in what He wants to communicate to man. God is not pure thought alone. God is also spirit, and they that worship Him must worship Him in spirit and in truth.

Oldmantook · Oct 1, 2017

redleghunter said:
There is only one soil suitable for the seed to grow.

Yup and that requires belief and perseverance unto maturity and fruit/crop. Those that believed for a while do not grow unto maturity but instead fall away because of testing. How does someone who falls away from the faith, fall away from it if he never belonged to it in the first place? That is impossible; yet that is what your logic entails.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2017

RisenInJesus said:
Before I answer all your numerous questions, maybe you could answer the ones I posted previously which you haven't responded to yet.

What about you, do you live a perfect, sinless life?

What about the apostles and believers through history? Can you give examples of any who lived a sinless life?

Paul who was certainly saved wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit his struggle with the flesh and the Spirit and I think the scriptures show that it is the condition believers deal until we are home with the Lord.

For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me.
I find then a law, that evil is present with me, the one who wills to do good. For I delight in the law of God according to the inward man. But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
Romans 7:15-25

I responded to your post here because this deals with a different topic that is not allowed to be discussed in this part or section of the forums.

Oldmantook · Oct 1, 2017

mark kennedy said:
That is to be enlightened, to see, perceive, understand. They have even:

tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age. (Hebrews 6:5)

That's not saving faith, even people who hear the word sometimes never believe, but they understand. Some who believe fall prey to a lack of resolve and inordinate affections. They were brought to a time of decision and decided against Christ. The answer to the question is that they fell away from the faith. They were never saved, they were never born again because they never received the engrafted word. You get that choice once, after that the condition is permanent. Our Arminian-Wesleyan brethren call this prevenient grace, and their right, but it's not saving faith.

They went out from us, but they did not belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us. But their departure made it clear that none of them belonged to us. You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth (1 John 1:19-20)

Notice they weren't anointed.

Grace and peace,
Mark

If someone "was never saved," "never born again" as your wrote, how can that person then fall away from the faith if he was never born again and saved to begin with? How can someone depart from something that he was never a part of? This renders your explanation problematic.

One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

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