Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
You do an excellent job of stretching the text to conform to your belief. In essence what you are saying is that a lost sinner is found before he/she repents. That is a very significant difference between what you say and what the scriptures teach. Restoration is only possible, if and after one repents.The parable of the lost sheep. Love it. Best part was the shepherd leaving the 99 to go get the sheep. That factually happens and the Holy Spirit does convict us of sin leading us to repentance. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
However what is not in the text is the sheep repenting before being found. The sheep is found and the shepherd puts it on his shoulders and brings him back. That is a very significant difference between what you said and what the text presents.
Also the text says the sheep wanders away. Says nothing about listening. You are trying to combine two different parables teaching two separate truths.
Your reasoning is not logical. Yes true believers are known by their fruit. However it is illogical to state that just because SOME who don't have fruit were never believers in the first place, to then claim that ALL who don't have fruit were never believers. The scriptures teach that some will apostatize; depart and fall away from the faith. How can an unbeliever apostatize/depart from the faith if he/she never belonged to the faith in the first place? It is impossible to fall away from something you were never united with. Only genuine believers can apostatize from the faith.If they are not saved, they are false converts. Not a logical fallacy, simply the truth. You shall know them by their fruit.
The problem with your interpretation is that the verse does not say "believe a little" as you wrote. It plainly reads believe for a while. Believe means believe - if only for a while. Believe in this verse is the exact same word for believe used in Jn 3:16. Pisteuo never refers to unbelievers or only those who believe a little.How can, as Jesus taught, a seed, when planted in shallow soil grow for a while, then wither and die? This seed was not watered, it did not have deep roots, just like people believe a little but not deeply. Being baptized by the Holy Spirit is where the difference is. A carnal person may learn, understand basic theology, quote scripture, but never really believe. This is why James said, show me your faith. You must demonstrate your faith and that is of course the Spirit working in you. Where is the fruit of the Spirit? And when troubles come, someone dies, your wife leaves you for another man and you lose faith, that is a carnal faith, not a spiritual one. Perseverance is a demonstration of real faith. We may backslide, become depressed and despondent for a period of time but we eventually come back. Belief also means that you do what Jesus says, you are obedient.
The Lord will not give you more than you can handle and so if you can't handle it, you really don't have the Lord inside, you've not been born again and transformed. This is a spiritual transformation when we enter into eternal life -- we are certain of our communion with the Lord so we don't fall from that and turn against Jesus.
It is more than that. It is not only rejecting Christ, but it is rejecting His words, too.
Jesus says in John 12:48 that if we receive not His words, those very words will judge them on the last day. Which words of Jesus will judge them? Matthew 5:22, Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, etc.
The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.Sorry missed responding to this specifically in my post.
I pointed out earlier out of all the soils mentioned only one was good to receive the seed. This is the only soil which will receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Because none of the others have a good root. Meaning only the good soil receives Christ as the root.
Hypothetical back slider? So may I assume that you believe a genuine believer cannot back slide? If so, how would you explain Rom 8:13?This confirms the sheep who hear the Shepherd's Voice follow Him. That much is clear.
How this supports your hypothetical back slider is not clear.
My best suggestion to you would be for your to study the NT scriptures on what they teach on the difference between occasional sin (which everyone does since no one is without sin) and the practice of sin or habitual sin. The ramifications and consequence is different for each. I don't have time right now to get into it. But reply to me again if you want my perspective and I'll try to explain time permitting.That verse does not support losing justification. Unless you think what we do justifies us in the first place. No one is arguing against living pure lives as disciples of Christ. That is commanded of the elect. However, once again we are at a cross road of how does one quantify the point at which (according to you) we lose our justification.
For example, if I lie to you it is a sin. If I do then do I lose my standing as justified before God? Then two days later I repent I'm justified again? Meaning our justification is a day to day occurrence?
Indeed; none of the sheep who hear/follow him in the text will be lost. In order for you to sustain your view you have to maintain the position that there is no such thing as sheep who do not follow as you claim that Jesus will lose none that the Father gives to him.No John 10 where Christ explains the sheep hear His voice only mentions sheep as those the Father gives Him. The only implication in the text is the Father does not give Christ defective sheep. Why? Because He will lose none.
So the only sheep discussed in the text are those who hear Him and none will be lost. There's no "but or if" clauses in the text. You added that.
He says His sheep do. That's the point.He presents us the God news then tells us what to DO
.salvation is fully condtional upon obedience to the Good news.
Actually Jesus makes it clear He goes out and searches and finds. The sheep did not find its way back. That's why he dined with sinners. To find the sick and lost. The ones who hear His voice follow Him. To follow Him we must be like Him.In essence what you are saying is that a lost sinner is found before he/she repents. That is a very significant difference between what you say and what the scriptures teach.
There is only one soil suitable for the seed to grow.The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.
That is to be enlightened, to see, perceive, understand. They have even:The verse plainly states believe for a while. It does not say never believed. The verse states they fell away - fell away from what? How can they fall away from something/the faith if they never truly belonged to the faith in the first place? The verse states that they were tested. How is it that these unbelievers as you claim are tested? Only believers are tested.
...
Are you aware of what believing means?
But what type of sins can a believer do at certain times? So they can sleep with prostitutes every once in a while? Beat their children only every once in a blue moon? Hate the brethren only once per year as long as they confess? You no doubt believe that a believer will be a slave to their sin. What kind of sins are acceptable in this being a slave to their sin? What is the infrequency of their sin whereby they would not be considered a child of God? Oh, and are they saved even while they are in a state of unrepentance and rebellion against God? For you admit that a believer will sin sometimes (and will always be this way). Are we to assume that when a believer does slip into watching porn, that they are saved while watching porn because God knows they will repent? Can a believer indulge in porn their whole life only if they do it on occasion and it is okay because they are confessing it to God? Let me give you a real world example of how this would not work with God. In Scripture, the church is compared to a bride. So the Lord is like our husband. Now, if a husband today were to cheat on his wife only on occasion his whole life, is it okay as long as he just tells her that he is sorry? I don't believe that such a thing would be acceptable to a wife. She would think that he was not truly devoted to him and she would eventually leave. Kings have servants who are supposed to do what they command. If the servants were to serve themselves only on occasion, I would see that as being a problem with the King. It would be disloyatly. Especially if they said to their King if they were planning on doing evil against Him only on occasion. Do you see the problem with your belief here?
We should all work on that every chance we get.
You have two things going on here at once, there is being born again which is salvation and there is the baptism of the Holy Spirit which equips for service. In the days of Moses the 70 elders where baptized in the Holy Spirit:
Then the Lord came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the Spirit that was upon him, and put it upon the seventy Ancient men: and when the Spirit rested upon them, then they prophesied, and did not cease. (Numbers 11:25)Then there were Bezalel and Aholiab:
Whom I have filled with the Spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all workmanship: (Exodus 31:3)Salvation on the other hand is when the Holy Spirit makes us a new creature in Christ:
In whom also ye have trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, even the Gospel of your salvation, wherein also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with the holy Spirit of promise, (Ephesians 1:13)We can't really know what went on in the heart of believers in the Old Testament. We do know that true repentance and saving faith only come through the washing and renewing and regeneration of the Holy Spirit. We know they received the word, some fell away and never came to saving faith, some responded in faith and bore fruit. The key here is saving faith and we have plenty of examples of that from the OT.
Concerning this salvation, the prophets, who foretold the grace that would come to you, searched and investigated carefully, trying to determine the time and setting to which the Spirit of Christ in them was pointing when He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow. (1 Peter 1:10-11)Notice the Spirit was in them. The revelation was greatly expanded in the New Testament witness, there is no question about that. But the sanctification of the Holy Spirit with regards to salvation came through in the OT as faith and repentance. True faith and repentance, righteousness and sanctification have always been a work of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer. They may not have called it being born again but the essential process remains unchanged, righteousness is by grace through faith. The righteousness of God in Christ can come only from God since it's based on his divine attributes. Producing those qualities in the heart of the believer is the sole responsibility of the Holy Spirit, always has been.
Grace and peace,
Mark
Your playing games.He says His sheep do. That's the point.
Ok now your talking about three things; water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of believers. I don't really mind referring to the Holy Spirit as our mother but Jesus called him the Comforter.To me the (water) baptism is the recognizing of the spirit given us and seeking a life based on it's teachings over the ways of the flesh we were taught from birth. No water is needed for this to happen, as it is a spiritual promise.
When the mind has understood the spiritual teachings and committed it's heart them, the Holy Ghost becomes the Mother that we are sons of the Father. It's what made Jesus a Christ. The Chrism.
You need to quote whole texts ...to whom is there no condemnation...finish the sentanceFor what it's worth. I need to know I'm saved. I can't go through each day not knowing from one moment to the next if I am going to heaven or not. If you are born physically, whatever kind of life you lead, you exist. You cannot be unborn. I believe the same applies spiritually. If you have been born again, whatever kind of life you lead, you exist spiritually. You cannot be unborn. If you are actively modelling your life on Christ, you will mature and change. If not, you won't. God does not break his promises. Each day is full of new opportunities that we take or ignore. Thank God for repentance and forgiveness. Thank God that there is nothing that we can do to make Him love us more than He already does, or not do that will make Him judge us because Jesus has already done all that is needed. All we have to do is believe in Him and put Him first in our day to day lives. We can keep coming back to Him because there is NO CONDEMNATION for those in Christ Jesus. God forgives and forgives and forgives. Jesus has paid the price, we just need to hold on to His promises.
Ok now your talking about three things; water baptism, the baptism of the Holy Spirit, and the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of believers. I don't really mind referring to the Holy Spirit as our mother but Jesus called him the Comforter.
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?
We use cookies and similar technologies for the following purposes:
Do you accept cookies and these technologies?