One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

[Bible Highlighter]

Salvation is not conditional on what man does. Salvation is God's sovereign design.

It is very concrete and monolithic. The Father gives sheep to the Son and He loses none.

It does not say the Son loses some. Or that the sheep can pluck themselves away. We are either His sheep or not.

Very concrete, thick lines bold colors. Straight forward. That's what I said, and that is what Jesus said in big bold red letters.

You have introduced an argument based on a hypothetical "what if a sheep loses his or her salvation." The answer to the hypothetical is no because He loses not one.

Then the hypothetical is extended to put words in my mouth that someone can stop believing in Christ and sin with impunity and stay saved. Of course I NEVER said such a thing nor promoted such a thing. I'll chalk that up to canned responses you give to other people,

Here is the answer. The sheep hear His Voice and FOLLOW Him. They also don't listen to false shepherds. These sheep again will NOT be plucked from Christ.

That is the brave and bold fact from the lips of Christ.

There is no middle ground.

So if salvation is not conditional based upon what man does, then man can be saved by having a belief on Jesus and yet also beat children, sleep with prostitutes, push people down stairs, hate the brethren, spit in the face of God and His Word, smoke pot, get plastered drunk (and then drive), and steal things. Right?

Yet, such thinking above is contrary to the sheep who FOLLOW Jesus (i.e. obey Him - which is the condition of whether or not they are saved).

In other words, you do realize that you believe in a contradiction, right?

Then again, this is nothing new with Eternal Security (ES).
It preaches a double message (that is contradictory).

On the one hand, ES says that a believer will live holy, and yet on the other hand, it says that the believer can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to holy living).

 

[redleghunter]

Yes, and they were also sinning, too. They are saying Lord, Lord and doing wonderful works, but if they are also sinning (like Matthew 7 says), then they are not going to make it. For Jesus says to depart from Him because they worked iniquity or lawlessness.

Or the lawless deeds were that they thought their works of wonder covered their sins.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So David was on his way to hell and only his repentance saved him again?

Yes. Why else would he need to repent?
Why would he say the following?

"Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions. Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin." (Psalms 51:1-2).

If David was once saved always saved, then there would have been no need to be washed or cleansed of sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Or the lawless deeds were that they thought their works of wonder covered their sins.

Yet, don't you believe that a saint will always sin at some point in the future?
Is that not a future admittance to do evil?
In other words, that would sort of be like an alcoholic who joins a drug program (with people thinking he is going to be sober) when in reality, he really has no intention of giving up the bottle.

You also said we are not saved based upon any condition.
Saying this leads people to think they can sin and still be saved.
For a person either lives holy and maintains their salvation or they live unholy and show what type of tree they really are.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I believe I do. I also believe at one point I did not.

2 Corinthians 13:5
Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

How does one prove that Jesus is in them?

The test is in 1 John 2:3.
If we find that we are keeping His commandments.

1 John 2:4 says, For he that says he knows Him (Jesus) and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Or the lawless deeds were that they thought their works of wonder covered their sins.

One also has to repent (i.e. ask the Lord Jesus to be forgiven of their sin). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). However, Scripture does say that love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8). Meaning, we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8).

 

[redleghunter]

Do you believe that a saint is saved if they die in one or two unrepentant sins (like looking at a woman in lust, and or lying) as long as they generally lived a holy life?
Do you believe that a saint will never stop sinning?
If so, what sins are acceptable to commit on occasion?
Porn, prostitution, child abuse, rape, murder, theft, coveting?
Does a saint need to confess sin in order to maintain their forgiveness?

Frankly that was my original challenge when I asked for someone to quantify. Yet your line of questioning avoids answering the OP.

Now, according to the OP you are asking the wrong questions.

Here are the questions you should answer before anyone answers your questions:

Are there more than one type of sheep?
Can someone snatch away a sheep given to the Son by the Father?

Answer these questions. Yes or no.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

 

[redleghunter]

One also has to repent (i.e. ask the Lord Jesus to be forgiven of their sin). For if we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins (1 John 1:9). However, Scripture does say that love covers a multitude of sins (1 Peter 4:8). Meaning, we are to bring forth fruits worthy of repentance (Matthew 3:8).

No argument there. Still does not address the OP.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Frankly that was my original challenge when I asked for someone to quantify. Yet your line of questioning avoids answering the OP.

Now, according to the OP you are asking the wrong questions.

Here are the questions you should answer before anyone answers your questions:

Are there more than one type of sheep?
Can someone snatch away a sheep given to the Son by the Father?

Answer these questions. Yes or no.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

This is only the sheep that are FOLLOWING Jesus. If one is not following Jesus, then this condition does not apply.

You either believe God forces a person to live holy because of the words by Jesus "My sheep follow me", or you believe that a saint can sin and still be saved on some level because you also said that man is not saved based upon any condition. Yet, you seem to imply elsewhere that believers must live holy to some extent so as to show that they are saved. What you believe is a contradiction, unless of course you care to explain what you believe.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Still does not address the OP.

Not true. I addressed the OP (Original Post) here.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

No argument there. Still does not address the OP.

Let me cut to the chase here. Are you automatically saved if you sin? What if you refused to repent or to ask for forgiveness? Are you still saved?

 

[redleghunter]

So if salvation is not conditional based upon what man does, then man can be saved by having a belief on Jesus and yet also beat children, sleep with prostitutes, push people down stairs, hate the brethren, spit in the face of God and His Word, smoke pot, get plastered drunk (and then drive), and steal things. Right?

Yet, such thinking above is contrary to the sheep who FOLLOW Jesus (i.e. obey Him - which is the condition of whether or not they are saved).

In other words, you do realize that you believe in a contradiction, right?

Then again, this is nothing new with Eternal Security (ES).
It preaches a double message (that is contradictory).

On the one hand, ES says that a believer will live holy, and yet on the other hand, it says that the believer can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to holy living).

Why won't you address the OP? You are basically asking me and others "have we stopped beating our spouses yet?"

The below is pretty simple:

Are there more than one type of sheep?
Can someone snatch away a sheep given to the Son by the Father?

Answer these questions. Yes or no.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Why won't you address the OP? You are basically asking me and others "have we stopped beating our spouses yet?"

The below is pretty simple:

Are there more than one type of sheep?
Can someone snatch away a sheep given to the Son by the Father?

Answer these questions. Yes or no.

Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in My Father’s name, they bear witness of Me. But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you. My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand. I and My Father are one.”

No. You cannot be snatched out of the Father's hand IF.... IF you follow the Shepherd.
Following the shepherd involves picking your cross, denying yourself, and following Jesus (i.e. obeying His commands that He Himself gave and His followers gave to us). If you are not following Jesus, then the condition of being snatched out of the Father's hand no longer applies.

Now, answer my questions.

 

[RisenInJesus]

So if salvation is not conditional based upon what man does, then man can be saved by having a belief on Jesus and yet also beat children, sleep with prostitutes, push people down stairs, hate the brethren, spit in the face of God and His Word, smoke pot, get plastered drunk (and then drive), and steal things. Right?

Yet, such thinking above is contrary to the sheep who FOLLOW Jesus (i.e. obey Him - which is the condition of whether or not they are saved).

In other words, you do realize that you believe in a contradiction, right?

Then again, this is nothing new with Eternal Security (ES).
It preaches a double message (that is contradictory).

On the one hand, ES says that a believer will live holy, and yet on the other hand, it says that the believer can sin and still be saved (Which is contrary to holy living).

I don't think that eternal security is a contradiction or double message since a truly born again believer will not practice habitual, on-going sin as in your example above. Certainly someone who claims to be saved, yet beats their children, sleeps with prostitutes, hates the brethren, etc. is not really saved. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits...Matthew 7:16-17. A believer who sins at times, yet submits to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and confesses to the Lord demonstrates that he or she is walking with and maturing in the Lord.

 

[redleghunter]

You also said we are not saved based upon any condition.
Saying this leads people to think they can sin and still be saved.
For a person either lives holy and maintains their salvation or they live unholy and show what type of tree they really are.

Holy living is indicative of being a new creation.
We are to preach, teach and exhort pure lives as a living sacrifice to God.

I don't know what your church experience has been but you must have seen some really bad examples of living sacrifices.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I don't think that eternal security is a contradiction or double message since a truly born again believer will not practice habitual, on-going sin as in your example above. Certainly someone who claims to be saved, yet beats their children, sleeps with prostitutes, hates the brethren, etc. is not really saved. Jesus said we will know them by their fruits...Matthew 7:16-17. A believer who sins at times, yet submits to the conviction of the Holy Spirit and confesses to the Lord demonstrates that he or she is walking with and maturing in the Lord.

Yet, do you not also believe that a believer will always sin as a part of this life?
How is that not a future admitance to doing evil?
How is that any different than the one sin Adam committed against God?
To admit that one will do evil is wrong.
It is having the wrong mindset about sin.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Holy living is indicative of being a new creation.
We are to preach, teach and exhort pure lives as a living sacrifice to God.

I don't know what your church experience has been but you must have seen some really bad examples of living sacrifices.

So there is a condition to being saved. Then you should just admit that there is a condition then. If there is no condition to being saved, then one can live like the devil and still be saved. You are saying holiness is a mark or requirement of what determines a saved person. So this is a condition.

 

[redleghunter]

This is only the sheep that are FOLLOWING Jesus. If one is not following Jesus, then this condition does not apply.

Close but still not answering the OP.

Jesus said the sheep hear Him and FOLLOW Him. There is no if. We are either sheep or not.

These same sheep will not be snatched away.

Concrete from Jesus.

 

[redleghunter]

Yet, you seem to imply elsewhere that believers must live holy to some extent so as to show that they are saved. What you believe is a contradiction, unless of course you care to explain what you believe.

Jesus did not deal with "extents." There's a reason for this. He laid His life down for the sheep.

What I laid out is what Jesus and His disciples taught. I added nothing more. There's no contradiction. No hypothetical statements.

 

[redleghunter]

Not true. I addressed the OP (Original Post) here.

I don't think you actually addressed the text. You added type of sheep and that is absent from the text.