One saved always saved (Eternal Security)

InterestedApologist said:

The issue here is not a genuine faith unto salvation that existed, but a general belief not unto salvation. There are scores of people that believe but are not saved. They love the concept of Christ, but he is just another option for enlightenment or part of their spiritual buffet. When tested, they will take whatever works for them at the moment. These people would say they are “spiritual”, not that they are Christ followers. Some will even serve in churches and be turned away at the judgement. This points out the folly of works as a way to earn salvation as you can clearly perform many and still be condemned.

I find it illogical to believe that a salvation we can do nothing to earn, that Jesus died to provide while we were still his enemies, and that the Bible claims transforms us when it is true, can suddenly be lost due to an imperfect walk. Works provide the evidence affirming that salvation has occurred, not the means of keeping it. True faith WILL persist.

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It's fine to to have your opinion but it needs to be reconciled with the scriptures. Lk 8:13 plainly states "believe for a while." It does not state "believe but are not saved" according to your amendment of the text. Believe means believe. Believe in Lk 8:13 is the same Greek word as believe in Jn 3:16. If it does not mean genuine belief how can these persons fall away from it? How can someone who believes, but according to you is not saved, fall away from salvation if he/she never possessed it in the first place? It is impossible to fall away from something you never really belonged to.

Salvation is not earned by works but works are the outward evidence of one's inward faith which is why James wrote that one is justified by works and not faith alone in Js 2:24.
Contrary to your opinion true faith will not always persist as all believers have the choice whether to walk in obedience or to walk in disobedience. Some will choose to walk in the Spirit while others instead choose to walk in the flesh.

Phoebe Ann said:

I disagree. Those who are safe in His arms, do abide. If any man be in Christ, he is a new creature.

Is a reward a blessing? It certainly is.

...So the question remains, "if our faith is of Christ, and our work is of Christ, what part is of ourselves that we can expect varying degrees of rewards dependant upon our good works?" There are none. The good we are, and the good we do, we do by the Grace of God, and it is He who deserves all the Glory for the work in us. The faithful, evidencing true humility, give credit to whom it is warranted.
--- Tony Warren

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Abiding is not about doing it's about being. Being a new creation has it's rewards in allowing the Holy Spirit's work to be accomplished w/o quenching Love's work. It is not a given with salvation, no matter how you are equating that to salvation. Justification is a given, sanctification is a cooperation.

mmbattlestar said:

For those who are speaking against Eternal Security I have a question for you. How can a person who has been born again become unborn again? To say that we can lose our salvation and to say that Eternal Security is a lie is calling Jesus a liar. Especially when he said "I shall not lose a single believer". It's right there in black and white.

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JOHN.3: = Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
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A Christian is born-again of the Spirit, usually as a babe in Christ(1COR.3:1-3). The Spirit is like the wind, blowing wherever He/God wishes. The Christian becomes the temple of God where the Spirit of God dwells.(1COR.3:16)
....... Will the Spirit of God continue to dwell in an unrepentant Christian who has blasphemed the Holy Spirit(MARK.3:29) or insulted the Spirit of grace(HEB.10:29, MATT.7:21-23).?

PeaceB said:

Nonsense, St. Paul is not speaking about people who never had faith in our Lord Jesus in the first place. The gentiles who will be "cut off" were already "grafted in" to the vine and had faith in Christ, which is exactly why St. Paul states that they "stand fast through faith".

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"For if their being cast away (the Jews) is the reconciling of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?" Rom. 11:15
You must realize that Paul is speaking generally about the Gentile World -- NOT ALL THE WORLD WILL BE RECONCILED! HELLO!

But if you believe that you can lose your salvation, make sure and pray to Mary and all the Saints for help.

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Oldmantook said:

Can someone stop believing after he/she becomes a Christian? Can someone become a Buddhist who was previously a believer? In Lk 8:4-15 Jesus explained one aspect of the parable of the sower. "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away (v.13) . Jesus himself taught that someone can believe for a while but when tested, falls away.

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Oldmantook said:

English translations for the most part do a lousy job of translating the Greek verb tenses. A couple that do a good job are Young's Literal Translation and the Berean Literal Bible.
For God so loved the world that He gave the only begotten Son, so that everyone believing in Him should not perish, but should have eternal life. (BLB)

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This confirms the sheep who hear the Shepherd's Voice follow Him. That much is clear.

How this supports your hypothetical back slider is not clear.

Oldmantook said:

Truly, truly, I say to you that the one hearing My word and believing the having sent Me, he has eternal life and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life. (BLB)
One is indeed justified upon belief but that belief must be ONGOING belief. If one ceases to believe then one is no longer justified

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That verse does not support losing justification. Unless you think what we do justifies us in the first place. No one is arguing against living pure lives as disciples of Christ. That is commanded of the elect. However, once again we are at a cross road of how does one quantify the point at which (according to you) we lose our justification.

For example, if I lie to you it is a sin. If I do then do I lose my standing as justified before God? Then two days later I repent I'm justified again? Meaning our justification is a day to day occurrence?

Oldmantook said:

So you believe that it is impossible for sheep to not listen and follow? Do you have any scriptural basis for claiming that there is only one type of sheep? On the contrary, the scriptures teach the opposite of your belief

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No John 10 where Christ explains the sheep hear His voice only mentions sheep as those the Father gives Him. The only implication in the text is the Father does not give Christ defective sheep. Why? Because He will lose none.

So the only sheep discussed in the text are those who hear Him and none will be lost. There's no "but or if" clauses in the text. You added that.

Oldmantook said:

Can someone stop believing after he/she becomes a Christian? Can someone become a Buddhist who was previously a believer? In Lk 8:4-15 Jesus explained one aspect of the parable of the sower. "And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy. But these have no root; they believe for a while, and in time of testing fall away (v.13) . Jesus himself taught that someone can believe for a while but when tested, falls away.

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Sorry missed responding to this specifically in my post.
I pointed out earlier out of all the soils mentioned only one was good to receive the seed. This is the only soil which will receive the Holy Spirit. Why? Because none of the others have a good root. Meaning only the good soil receives Christ as the root.

Oldmantook said:

In Lk 15 in the parable of the lost sheep, the lost sheep was a believer/follower as this one sheep was originally a part of the "ninety-nine righteous persons who do not need to repent" (v.7). Yet this sheep strayed from the flock and became LOST (v.4). Jesus refers to this lost sheep as a SINNER (v.7). The sheep/person repents and is found. Thus your claim that the Father gives Christ only one type of sheep is contradicted by this passage. There are sheep who need no repentance in the sense that they remain in an obedient and abiding relationship with God. There are other sheep who stray, who do not listen and follow and become lost. They remain sinners and will be plucked unless they repent.

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The parable of the lost sheep. Love it. Best part was the shepherd leaving the 99 to go get the sheep. That factually happens and the Holy Spirit does convict us of sin leading us to repentance. I'm sure I'm preaching to the choir on this one.
However what is not in the text is the sheep repenting before being found. The sheep is found and the shepherd puts it on his shoulders and brings him back. That is a very significant difference between what you said and what the text presents.

Also the text says the sheep wanders away. Says nothing about listening. You are trying to combine two different parables teaching two separate truths.

redleghunter said:

What exactly is a 'loss of faith.' How much do we need to 'lose' for our faith to endanger our standing with God? No one seems to quantify these statements. (note: I'm not asking you in particular to answer such questions).

On sin? We are told to rebuke our brothers and sisters who sin and if they are not repentant to discharge them from fellowship until repentant.

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redleghunter,

1. Romans 6 says to whomever you yield yourself to is your master.
When you come to the point of changing masters is when you are serving them completely and have no allegiance to Christ but to Satan.

2. God said in Ezekiel 18 that if the Jew did not Repent of their sin God would remember their righteousness no more.
Israel thought that was unfair because they were God's chosen people so they thought they were in God's club (UES).
God said they were wrong.
If one stays in that backslidden condition they have to be converted from sin. Whoever converts a brethren from sin has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins.

3. Because of the laws of degradation and searing the conscience it is possible to go into apostasy. This goes for believers or unbelievers. God knows the point of no return and when the cup has been filled up just like in Noah's day when the flood came. Jerry Kelso

Adzinfi said:

You have .as a born again believer.both the ability to sin and the free will not to.
If you choose to sin and not cease doing so.. You have already lost your salvation .or have not yet come to salvation because in this scenario you have not yet died to self to live in Christ.

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Therefore, we can only keep salvation if we are sinless?
Where is God in the sanctification process?

Adzinfi said:

So if one has died to self what does thier life look like?Do they attend sunday and midweek study the ocasinal outvreach .do thier job buy whatever they like.drift with the world.Or do they forsake it all to obey Jesus in whatever he speaks to them about . it's the latter.
So we observe most people who advocate for osas themselves have not yet died in Christ
And are not yet living in his resurection either. And won't be classed as HIS when he comes.

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Therefore going to church on Sunday and Wednesday is an indication to God and man we have "died to Christ?" So if OSAS advocates do the same they have truly died to Christ too?

Adzinfi said:

He speaks very clear indeed. That they who endure Wil be saved..so some may not endure...by thier own free will.
Salvation comes by way of repentance.
This opportunity to REPENT is where Grace begins and ends.
For without what Christ has done we have no opportunity to REPENT.
This opportunity is “the gift”
We can do no works to make that opportunity available..thus it is not of works least any should boast

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Where is God's will in all of this?

Adzinfi said:

But if we do not then act upon that oppurtunity by turning from disobedience (works of sin) and replacing it with Obedience (works of righteousness) then we will never be saved.

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Therefore our works actual trump Christ's ? I'm sure you know He promised to give us the power to overcome?

But you will no doubt tell me again some people will not overcome. I agree, but the ones with Christ's promise will overcome.

Adzinfi said:

That if we turn and obediently follow Christ forsaking sin and self he will save us from the judgment to come

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1 Peter 1:3-14 does speak of "receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls."

However this is predicated with "who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time."

I think you are confusing the glorification of our bodies at the resurrection with justification and sanctification.

Adzinfi said:

For while we hope for it we don't Get it until he comes.
So if we do not act in the opportunity to REPENT and remain and endure in obedience but instead turn back from doing so..
We WILL NOT be saved.

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No, Paul, even in the YLT says past tense we are justified by faith not our law keeping or works:

Romans 5: Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
5 Having been declared righteous, then, by faith, we have peace toward God through our Lord Jesus Christ,


The Pelagian model keeps God's Power, His Holy Spirit out of consideration.

What you have presented to me is people come to Christ and are born again. Then on their own by their works to keep justified.

Considering our works never justified us in the first place how can they keep a free gift from God? It's a valid logical question.

I will also note, a lot of what you commented on assumes eternal security is assumed in an antinomian construct. Which is a false dilemma because there can be and actually is another answer.
Here it is:

1.One can believe in eternal security because Christ and His apostles taught such. That those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ will be saved. Only those who are born again will see the Kingdom.

2.They also taught us to live holy lives and love one another.

Here's the sobering truth. Those who do #2 can only be #1.

The above is clear.

Danthemailman said:

Future perseverance is proof of genuine conversion.

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Jason0047 said:

This is not the invasion of the body snatchers. We have free will. Otherwise you would see all believers walking perfectly before God.

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Did not suggest such.

We have a Power we did not before God's grace.
The rest of the quote above lends evidence sanctification is a process and not our justification.

PeaceB said:

Hebrews 10 also clearly refutes OSAS. Here is the text:

26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving theknowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice forsins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence oftwo or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I willrepay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is afearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
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In the text above, the author is speaking about believers facing the "fury of fire." This is because 1) he refers to "we" at the beginning of the text. That includes at least himself, and we know that the author is a believer; 2) the text states that those facing the "fury of fire" are people who were sanctified by the blood of the new covenant; 3) the text indicates that the people facing the "fury of fire" are people who outraged the Holy Sprit, which suggests that they have the indwelling of the Holy Sprit; 4) in the text the author compares those who will face the "fury of fire" with Jews who set aside the Law of Moses. The author indicates that those who were sanctified by the blood of the new covenant (i.e. Jews and gentiles who have faith in Christ) but "go on sinning deliberately" will suffer a worse fate than Jews who had set aside the Law of Moses.

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Guess we are now in Hebrews. The OP showed a few verses all of which were from Jesus Christ. Hebrews cannot contradict what Christ taught. Which means your commentary on Hebrews 10 must be examined in context of the theme of Hebrews. Chapters 7-9 set the stage for chapter 10.

Summary? There were members of that community who were adding to the sacrifice of Christ or believing Jesus was not enough. A very familiar topic.

But alas, we both digress. Jesus said the Father gives Him sheep and not one would be snatched away.

Therefore, in the context of the thread, Hebrews 10 cannot be speaking of the sheep the Father gave Him. God's words do not return to Him empty.

Why many dance around on this subject of losing salvation or justification is because some think everyone occupying a pew is "saved." This may be true for religion but obviously not God. He said not one sheep would be plucked.

Phantasman said:

Why stop at verse 6?

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.


Just more proof that the OT has nothing to offer Christs gospel message.

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All the ones claiming they were He. Hope this helps.

InterestedApologist said:

I find it illogical to believe that a salvation we can do nothing to earn, that Jesus died to provide while we were still his enemies, and that the Bible claims transforms us when it is true, can suddenly be lost due to an imperfect walk. Works provide the evidence affirming that salvation has occurred, not the means of keeping it. True faith WILL persist.

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Indeed.

PeaceB said:

"Born again" refers to water baptism. Read the Scripture that uses the term.

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No it doesn't.

Jason0047 said:

Then why all the talk about those who did many wonderful works for Jesus and yet Christ said to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin)?

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Perhaps because they thought their good works merited entry into the Kingdom instead of due work of a laborer for his Master.

~Cassia~ said:

What are you implying with that verse?

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Well, actually it is a passage and not a verse (singular). Anyways, it is not what am I implying with that passage. It's... what does the passage plainly say?

Let's read it.

34 "Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in" (Matthew 25:34-35).

41"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink"
(Matthew 25:41-42).

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:46).

In the Parable of the Good Samaritan we learn that the identity of the neighbor who we are supposed to love as a part of the 2nd greatest commandment is the afflicted or the poor man (Luke 10:25-37).

1 John 4:8 says, "He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love."

Paul says the moral law (like do not murder, do not covet, do not steal) is loving your neighbor (Romans 13:8-9). So if you break the moral law, you are not loving your neighbor and 1 John 4:8 says if you do not love, you do not know God because God is love.

Loving your neighbor would also include loving your brothers and sisters, too.
But if any man hates his brother and says they love God is lying. For it its written,

'If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?" (1 John 4:20).

In fact, it is a salvation issue.

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

redleghunter said:

Perhaps because they thought their good works merited entry into the Kingdom instead of due work of a laborer for his Master.

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No. There is no "perhaps" or "maybe" about it. That is not what the text says. Jesus said to depart from Him because they worked iniquity (sin). So they were doing good works and they were also sinning. That is why Jesus said to depart from Him!

Matthew 7 is not pushing OSAS in the slightest. If you were to skip down to verses 26-27 you would read that the whole point was not doing what Jesus says. For it says that person who do not do what He says is like a fool who built his house upon the sand, and when a storm came, great was the fall of that house.

26 "And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it." (Matthew 7:26-27).

We also see a similar thing in Matthew 13. In Matthew 13:41-42, Jesus will send forth His angels and they will gather out of His Kingdom (i.e. all those who profess Christ) and they will gather out all those who offend (sin) and do iniquity (intense sin or lawlessness) and they will be cast into the furnace of fire (i.e. the Lake of Fire).

41 "The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." (Matthew 13:41-42).

Remember, it is more about just receiving Jesus. We have to also receive His words, too.

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." (John 12:48).

Did catch that? Jesus says, he (anyone) who receives not His words, the word that Jesus had spoken will judge them on the last day.

What words of Jesus can judge a person on the last day?

Matthew 5:22 says if you say to your brother that he is a fool, you are in danger of hellfire.
Matthew 5:28-30 says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can potentially be cast into hellfire.
Matthew 6:15 says if you do not forgive, then you will not be forgiven.

jerry kelso said:

redleghunter,

1. Romans 6 says to whomever you yield yourself to is your master.
When you come to the point of changing masters is when you are serving them completely and have no allegiance to Christ but to Satan.

2. God said in Ezekiel 18 that if the Jew did not Repent of their sin God would remember their righteousness no more.
Israel thought that was unfair because they were God's chosen people so they thought they were in God's club (UES).
God said they were wrong.
If one stays in that backslidden condition they have to be converted from sin. Whoever converts a brethren from sin has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins.

3. Because of the laws of degradation and searing the conscience it is possible to go into apostasy. This goes for believers or unbelievers. God knows the point of no return and when the cup has been filled up just like in Noah's day when the flood came. Jerry Kelso

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Thanks Jerry.
Yet Jesus said not one sheep given Him by the Father would be plucked away.

So based on your quote above, and the Truth Christ teaches about the sheep, a wayward sheep will be confronted and repent. Maybe even dragged back.

However, we are mixing a Truth that Christ will not lose one sheep with your hypothetical of a backslider who never repents.

See the problem?