One reason why I am still atheist.

[laconicstudent]

That is almost exactly the teachings of buddhism about nirvana. Are you buddhist?

Well, I have a cross for a faith icon, a cross and icons in my avatar, quotes and an icon in my signature, and I'm quoting a Christian saint in my previous post.

 

[Fatally.Yours]

That poll that got posted about levels of religion correlating to education, that was American, right? Just that seemed like an unusually low level of atheism compared to what I'm used to.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

To say that he cannot be explained with logic.... that is the same as saying that he is illogical. It says nothing about his existence. The most logical thing to presume then, is that god does not exist.

Logic is merely a human construct. If logic is merely a human construct, then it has limitations in it's power to clarify our inquiries and classifications. Logic can only work with certain data, and as humans, we do not have access to 'all data'. If God indeed exists and thus transcends the humanly accessible data, then He is not 'illogical,' but rather beyond our powers of reasoning. No, the most 'logical' thing to presume is to say we don't know whether or not God exists, and if He does, we cannot know exactly what His Being entails without a bit of additional data supplied by Him.

 

[Bob in Florida USA]

I read a post recently titled "the main reason why I am atheist" or something like that, so I wanted to do something similar. This isn't like the other though, just hear me out (or read me out, whatever)

This isnt why I became atheist or the reason I am still atheist, but it is a contributing factor and a question that christianity cannot possible answer because, basicly there is no answer. That is to say, it is impossible to present an answer that truely satisfied the question. I'll continue.

Where did god exist before he created everything else in existence.

Similarly, When did god come into existence?

What created god, or where did god come from?

The common answers to these questions are along the lines of "god is eternal, he has always existed, he is infinite, nothing created him he just exists, god exists outside of time and space, ect..."

The problem with these answers are easy to see. If god exists outside of time and space that is to say, god lived... nowhere.

Similarly if time didn't exist before god created it, god himself would have been stuck in a single moment and unable to DO anything. God existing, god creating time.... those are two consecutive events. in order for two events to occur one after the other, time has to exist for the first event to happen BEFORE the second. god could not have created time after he existed, that being before time existed, then created time. Its an endless loop paradox.

Now about what created god. I have heard a thousand times theists claiming that everything is too complex for it to have simply happened, It had to have been created. If this is true, then god must be more complex than what he has created. To suggest that he is less complex than what he created could be argued that he must be less perfect, to say he is more complex could be argued that he is less perfect. Which is more perfect, complexity above what he created or simplicity below what he created. The fact that those two points CAN be argued suggests that the very concept of a perfect being is impossible. Neither tells where god came from though.

God always existed, he never DIDNT exist? why cant you just say the same thing about time, space, and matter? That eliminates the extra step (god) and is much more simple. saying that something so complex as the universe must mean it was created just adds one more step which amplifies the complexity, that brings the question of what creted the creator, which just adds another step of complexity. It will never end if you say that complexity requires creation.

Hi leftyatbest,

These are very good, and very deep questions that you ask!

First, I'll provide a little information about myself, so that you know where I'm coming from.
I am an ordinary person, a sinner just like everyone else (except Jesus, who never sinned!). I accepted Jesus' gift of forgiveness when I was about 7 or 8 years old (I'm now forty-something).

I don't know everything. I don't claim to. However, I have learned a lot, by God's grace. So, if nothing else, perhaps I can at least give you some insight as to what I (an ordinary Christian) thinks and believes regarding your excellent questions.

Your question #1
Where (and when) did god exist before he created everything else in existence?

I think that the critical thing to understand, in order to answer this question satisfactorily, is that God is a Spirit, an eternal Spirit.

Because he is an eternal Spirit he is not confined in any way by the physical universe (which I believe he created).
In other words, he exists outside of everything that we can see with our physical eyes.

He exists in another dimension, a spiritual dimension.

Since it's creation, he also exists within the physical dimension, to whatever extent it serves his purpose.

The spiritual dimension also completely encompasses the physical dimension, which is why I believe in God's omnipresence (IE: He is everywhere, all the time).

Can I prove that with equations? No. Do I believe that in my heart? Yes!
That is an example of what faith is, believing in someone or something that you cannot see with your physical eyes.

I believe time also exists only in the physical universe, God is in no way confined by it. Practically speaking, because God has no beginning and no ending, the counting of time in the spiritual dimension is unnecessary.
There is a Christian hymn that states "When we've been there ten-thousand years bright-shining as the son, we've no less days to sing God's praise then when we first begun!" Pretty cool huh?

I'll plan to address your other questions in further posts, as the Lord leads.

Although, I will say this about God's complexity.
God is infinitely more complex than his creation.
Yet, the creation, even in it's current fallen state, reflects the glory and complexity of it's creator.
Like a drop of water reflects the composition and attributes of the ocean.

These are my thoughts, as inspired by the Holy Spirit within me, and I believe them to be scripturally sound as well.

I also challenge and encourage you to read the words of Jesus for yourself,
the gospel of John is a great place to begin, and I pray that his words will become Spirit and Life to you, and give you all the proof you need of his existence, and of his love for you!

Grace and peace!

 

[drich0150]

I read a post recently titled "the main reason why I am atheist" or something like that, so I wanted to do something similar. This isn't like the other though, just hear me out (or read me out, whatever)

This isnt why I became atheist or the reason I am still atheist, but it is a contributing factor and a question that christianity cannot possible answer because, basically there is no answer. That is to say, it is impossible to present an answer that truly satisfied the question. I'll continue.

Where did god exist before he created everything else in existence.

Similarly, When did god come into existence?

What created god, or where did god come from?

The common answers to these questions are along the lines of "god is eternal, he has always existed, he is infinite, nothing created him he just exists, god exists outside of time and space, ect..."

The problem with these answers are easy to see. If god exists outside of time and space that is to say, god lived... nowhere.

Similarly if time didn't exist before god created it, god himself would have been stuck in a single moment and unable to DO anything. God existing, god creating time.... those are two consecutive events. in order for two events to occur one after the other, time has to exist for the first event to happen BEFORE the second. god could not have created time after he existed, that being before time existed, then created time. Its an endless loop paradox.

Now about what created god. I have heard a thousand times theists claiming that everything is too complex for it to have simply happened, It had to have been created. If this is true, then god must be more complex than what he has created. To suggest that he is less complex than what he created could be argued that he must be less perfect, to say he is more complex could be argued that he is less perfect. Which is more perfect, complexity above what he created or simplicity below what he created. The fact that those two points CAN be argued suggests that the very concept of a perfect being is impossible. Neither tells where god came from though.

God always existed, he never DIDNT exist? why cant you just say the same thing about time, space, and matter? That eliminates the extra step (god) and is much more simple. saying that something so complex as the universe must mean it was created just adds one more step which amplifies the complexity, that brings the question of what created the creator, which just adds another step of complexity. It will never end if you say that complexity requires creation.

So your saying, You are an atheist because God does not conform to the linear way you have been taught how to think..

Fair enough.

Let me ask you a question, if God did conform to how you would expect Him to exist, then would He by definition still be God?
In other words:
If you were the benchmark or standard in which God was measured, then how could He still be God?

 

[solarwave]

I have to say I disagree with those on here who say God can be illogical. We may not always understand, but God is logical and I hope to show that below.

This isnt why I became atheist or the reason I am still atheist, but it is a contributing factor and a question that christianity cannot possible answer because, basicly there is no answer. That is to say, it is impossible to present an answer that truely satisfied the question. I'll continue.

Is there any point in answering you then, since you seem to be saying your not open to there being an answer? I'll give my answers to what you say anyway, though I know I could be wrong.

Where did god exist before he created everything else in existence.

As you say, God didn'y exist 'anywhere'. I believe God is spaceless. In fact I believe God is reality itself. So God doesn't exist 'inside' anything, but that everything is 'inside' God in some sense, though everything is no God.

There isn't a problem with God existing no where, or not how I understand physics, because our universe exists nonwhere because there is no space outside it. Also if you ask what the universe is expanding into the answer would be that is isn't expanding into anything.

Similarly, When did god come into existence?

He didn't because He is timeless in my opinion. The universe came into existance 13.7 billion years ago and so something must caused that, be that a will or a law, something must have existed before the universe and since space and time began at the Big Bang it makes most sense for this Being or Law to be timeless. So again something has to be timelessly real.

What created god, or where did god come from?

Same as above.

Similarly if time didn't exist before god created it, god himself would have been stuck in a single moment and unable to DO anything. God existing, god creating time.... those are two consecutive events. in order for two events to occur one after the other, time has to exist for the first event to happen BEFORE the second. god could not have created time after he existed, that being before time existed, then created time. Its an endless loop paradox.

I agree that God exists in a single moment and so doesn't act in one moment and then the next. I disagree that God isn't able to do anything though and that Gods existance and creating are two consecutive events. God doesn't begin to exist then create and so God's existance isn't an event, just a fact. But I do think God creates, and answers pray in the past and future and does this all in one instant.

Again, if not God then some timeless law must have created the universe anyway.

Now about what created god. I have heard a thousand times theists claiming that everything is too complex for it to have simply happened, It had to have been created. If this is true, then god must be more complex than what he has created. To suggest that he is less complex than what he created could be argued that he must be less perfect, to say he is more complex could be argued that he is less perfect. Which is more perfect, complexity above what he created or simplicity below what he created. The fact that those two points CAN be argued suggests that the very concept of a perfect being is impossible. Neither tells where god came from though.

I wouldn't say the universe is too complex to have just happened and I'm not sure exactly what your point is here, but I'ld like to defend a certain understanding of God here.

To me it seems that God is more simple than the universe and simplicity might be more perfect than complexity, but it might just be neutral. By simplicity I mean that all His attributes are either infinite (eg: omnipotence, omniscience) or zero (eg: timeless, spaceless).

I don't think asking the question proves there is no answer any more than asking whether the sun goes round the earth or earth goes round the sun is more true, means there is no truth.

God always existed, he never DIDNT exist? why cant you just say the same thing about time, space, and matter?

Well science seems to disagree and philosophical arguments can be made against this too.

 

[solarwave]

That poll that got posted about levels of religion correlating to education, that was American, right? Just that seemed like an unusually low level of atheism compared to what I'm used to.

Yeah I think its America. England is much more atheistic