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One problem (among many) of a worldwide flood

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Vance

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Creationist organizations like AIG date the global flood (using the genealogies in the Scripture) to 2300 B.C. They can't really back off of this date, because their entire YEC belief system is founded on the earth being young, which is founded solely on these very same genealogies.

Yet, the historical implications of a global flood in 2300 BC are just mind-boggling to consider. Here we have a thriving civilization in Egypt (and Sumeria, India and China), which is clicking along swimmingly. Then, the flood, and they are all wiped out, but all their artifacts remain intact including some items which would seem to have had a VERY difficult time surviving (much less remaining in place) the type of flood we are talking about.

Then (and this is the kicker), with only a handful of humans left, a group quickly repopulates each previously civilized area and takes up COMPLETELY where the previous culture left off, including language, customs, religious beliefs (now THAT part is hard to explain!), and political structures. AND in each case (Egyptian, Indian, Sumerian and Chinese), they did this SO quickly and completely as to leave no discernable gap in the historical record.


Not a single blip on the radar.
 

nyjbarnes

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Vance said:
Creationist organizations like AIG date the global flood (using the genealogies in the Scripture) to 2300 B.C. They can't really back off of this date, because their entire YEC belief system is founded on the earth being young, which is founded solely on these very same genealogies.

Yet, the historical implications of a global flood in 2300 BC are just mind-boggling to consider. Here we have a thriving civilization in Egypt (and Sumeria, India and China), which is clicking along swimmingly. Then, the flood, and they are all wiped out, but all their artifacts remain intact including some items which would seem to have had a VERY difficult time surviving (much less remaining in place) the type of flood we are talking about.

Then (and this is the kicker), with only a handful of humans left, a group quickly repopulates each previously civilized area and takes up COMPLETELY where the previous culture left off, including language, customs, religious beliefs (now THAT part is hard to explain!), and political structures. AND in each case (Egyptian, Indian, Sumerian and Chinese), they did this SO quickly and completely as to leave no discernable gap in the historical record.


Not a single blip on the radar.
So remove the date and does the flood have validity?
 
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gluadys

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nyjbarnes said:
So remove the date and does the flood have validity?

No.

That's only one problem with a global flood. There are many others.

The whole geological record, including sandstone preserving spider tracks, and salt deposits hundreds of feet thick, and limestone deposits that had to take centuries.

And then there are several other problems as well.
 
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Vance

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On the science board, Frumious has collected a HUGE list of scientific evidences that a worldwide flood could not have occured. He has challenged anyone to show that they are not convincing evidences, but no one has been able to challenge a single one of them.

But, rather than address the serious problems from the natural world, I am just pointing to the historical problems to a world-wide flood.
 
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RVincent

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It's nice to see other people who support a local flood. I get hounded by this a lot.

(Luke 2:1-3) And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. {2} (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.) {3} And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.​

Wow! Australia, to South America, even Encino. They all went! ^_^
 
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GenemZ

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Vance said:
On the science board, Frumious has collected a HUGE list of scientific evidences that a worldwide flood could not have occured. He has challenged anyone to show that they are not convincing evidences, but no one has been able to challenge a single one of them.

But, rather than address the serious problems from the natural world, I am just pointing to the historical problems to a world-wide flood.

The Bible does not teach a world wide flood in Noah's day.


Question 1. What was the purpose of the flood?

Answer: To destroy mankind who had become evil.

Question 2. Where did man live?

Answer: Mankind was in his infancy. He was not covering the face of the earth. Most likely, he was in an area no larger than a large county in the United States. The flood need not be universal unless God was angry with the planet itself. He was not.

Question 3. Why were the animals to be saved?

Only animals indigenous to where man was living were to be saved. God wished to preserve the eco system of that part of the world. There was no need for animals in areas not affected by this local flood to be on the Ark.

Question 4. If man was scattered all over the face of the earth, how could they have heard of God's warning of coming judgement?

" if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others..." 2 Peter 2:5 niv

Answer: Man had to be living in an area only large enough so all could have had some contact with the message of Noah.

The only universal flood the Bible mentions is to be found in Genesis 1:2.

"Now the earth was chaotic and with a feeling of emptiness, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters."

Not wanting to go into great detail at this time, but the Hebrew indicates that this water we see was being created from the melting of a giant icepack that covered the earth. The Hebrew speaks of the Spirit with a word that indicates a mother hen hovering over for the warming of her eggs.

The earth could have been stuck in time, frozen for many years of judgement with no new life existing on earth until God refurbished this planet in Genesis 1, with the most recent creation we now live in.

Question 5: If this earth is a new creation that replaced a prehistoric one, will God also replace this one with a newer one in the future?

Answer:

"Behold, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind."

Isaiah 65:17 niv

"But in keeping with his promise we are looking forward to a new heaven and a new earth, the home of righteousness." 2 Peter 3:13 niv

God did it before. And, God will do it again. Prehistoric dispensations is what scientists label as ages. Jurrasic, etc. The way we have dispensations now, is cultural and spiritual radical shifts in how man lives and thinks concerning God. In the future, the new heaven and new earth will have the removal of all Satanic and demonic influence, and the animals will be changed by genetic design. No evolution. God will create the change.

Isaiah 11:6 niv
The wolf will live with the lamb, the leopard will lie down with the goat, the calf and the lion and the yearling [Septuagint [ lion will feed ] ] together; and a little child will lead them. "

Isaiah 65:25 niv
"The wolf and the lamb will feed together, and the lion will eat straw like the ox, but dust will be the serpent's food. They will neither harm nor destroy on all my holy mountain," says the LORD ."

There will be no need to look for the missing links. For this time, all will know the truth.

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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PotLuck

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nyjbarnes said:
What is the purpose of a rainbow?
A sign that God would not destroy the earth by water again.

Anyway,
A worldwide flood, a local flood or even localities of floods really isn't a quest of mine. Frankly I'm not real concerned if there was a global flood or not but I'm interested in finding water.

Why would anyone need a global flood though? Just curious.
 
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nyjbarnes

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PotLuck said:
A sign that God would not destroy the earth by water again.

Anyway,
A worldwide flood, a local flood or even localities of floods really isn't a quest of mine. Frankly I'm not real concerned if there was a global flood or not but I'm interested in finding water.

Why would anyone need a global flood though? Just curious.
So I guess the question is this...

If the Earth was a pangea, and was surrounded by water...and there was a flood that covered all of the land would that be considered a world wide flood?

I suppose what is being postulated is that the continents were as they are now and only the crescent was flooded or the souther have of eastern europe.

Given these passages, logic indicates a couple of things to me.

Genesis 9:11-17, "And I will establish my covenant with you; neither shall all flesh be cut off any more by the waters of a flood; neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. {12} And God said, This <is> the token of the covenant which I make between me and you and every living creature that <is> with you, for perpetual generations: {13} I do set my bow in the cloud, and it shall be for a token of a covenant between me and the earth. {14} And it shall come to pass, when I bring a cloud over the earth, that the bow shall be seen in the cloud: {15} And I will remember my covenant, which <is> between me and you and every living creature of all flesh; and the waters shall no more become a flood to destroy all flesh. {16} And the bow shall be in the cloud; and I will look upon it, that I may remember the everlasting covenant between God and every living creature of all flesh that <is> upon the earth. {17} And God said unto Noah, This <is> the token of the covenant, which I have established between me and all flesh that <is> upon the earth."

"neither shall there any more be a flood to destroy the earth. "

So either God was saying that he would never flood again and let it kill people

OR

God would never send another flood to encompass the EARTH (meaning the entire Earth) for the purposes of irradicating mankind.
 
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PotLuck

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It may help to know the hebrew word used here. I know "love" is used in many places of the bible but upon closer inspection the hebrew language had words that specified a type or kind of love like that between a man and woman or brother to brother or love of an animal or thing. But the english language allows no singular word for those types and simply uses "love" or even "charity" for all.

Maybe someone can help out in that respect for the word "earth" in these instances? May give a clue toward finding an answer.
 
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Crayman

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An interesting point to consider, is that many theologians consider that the Creation story and the story of Noah are derived from ancient oral histories that were collected together and written down by the Hebrews, but had most likely been around for quite some time. Geologically speaking any world wide floods proceed human history by quite a bit, but localised floods were fairly common in the correct period.
Of interest the Babylonians also have a flood story in the Gilgamesh Epic, and both the Hebrew and the Babylonian stories are thought to have been proceeded by an even older Sumerian story (an ancient people who settled the Tigris-Euphrates basin long before the Babylonians). The stories are not identical, but similarities are too close to dismiss the idea or a common link out of hand.
Cheers
Crayman
 
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PotLuck

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Interesting indeed.
Any chance those "floods" happened concurrently?
I'm looking at God's intent...

|v13 And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth.
(OldT:Genesis 6:13)

Still yet there's that geneology that needs to be considered. (Ok, that's for a creationist anyway. got it. )

Without knowing the hebrew words translated as "earth" I'm still not ready to accept a global flood. If the bible does show a global flood then another course of thought is needed.

Anyway looking at the following verse "world" doesn't seem to have the same meaning but three rather distinct ideas.

1) in the world. (on earth?)
2) the world was made by him (back to Genesis?)
3) the world knew him not. (men didn't know him)

|v10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
(NewT:John 1:10)

So are there other meanings for "earth" that the english language uses interchangably in terms of hebrew translation?

So God's intent is to destroy man for his corruption with water. The water wouldn't necessarily have to come up from under their feet so long as the destruction by water was achieved.
 
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Crayman

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There's an even better site to go to - a site called e-Sword.net that has a free study bible you can download where you can choose the modules and the versions of the bible you wish to install (one of the versions is the KJV with Strongs numbers added) a great thing to have in order to delve deeper in to the Bible. I use it constantly, and have it at home and at work. Have a look if you are interested.
Cheers
Crayman
:)
 
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Vance

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Here is some stuff I posted last year on this subject. I decided to set aside all the evidence of the natural world, as well as the historical evidence mentioned above, that made a global flood simply impossible, and just concentrated on showing how a local flood was even a more likely interpretation just based on Scriptural analysis alone. Personally, I think that it is possible that the story is an extrapolation of a true event, told in a method to convey certain of God's truths to us. But even if you require that it be purely historical, a local flood still makes more sense:

To start with, while a “plain reading” would seem to indicate God (through the writer) was referring to a flood covering the whole planet, we have seen too often that a “plain reading” ends up being “plain wrong.”

So, what did the writer of Genesis mean by “all the Earth” or “the whole Earth”? The Hebrew words are “kol” which means all and “erets” which means land, earth, ground or country. The important point is that there are numerous uses of this term “kol erets” throughout the Old Testament to mean almost every combination of these possible definitions. In some places it even refers to a people and not the land at all. There are about 200 uses of the term “kol erets” and the large majority of them refer to local geography (I can give numerous examples, if desired).

And, of course, this use of the term “all the earth” to refer to local areas is consistent with the mindset and method of reference in ancient times generally. Even much later, ancient historians would say that Alexander the Great “conquered all the world” and then wept for “other worlds to conquer”.

So, the term “kol erets” can be interpreted many different ways: everything from the entire world to a very local area or even a group of people. Further, although I am not a Hebrew scholar, I have heard that there is another word “tebel” used in the Old Testament which always refers to the entire world or the entire inhabited world. This word is never used to describe the flood.

In fact, within the flood story itself, the use of “kol erets”indicates a local area. In Genesis 8:5, it indicates that Noah was able to see the mountains. But in Genesis 8:9, the dove found no resting place because the water was on the surface of “kol erets”. Since there were mountains visible to Noah already, the “all the earth” referred to in Genesis 8:9 can only be referring to a local area.

In short, then, the only reason *not* to believe it was a local flood rather than a global flood is if anything *else* in the Biblical record requires such a belief. There are a couple of factual statements that might argue in favor of a global flood:

-God said He meant to destroy all the people on the Earth. Well, that gets back to what was meant by “Earth”. If He meant to destroy all the people of a region, but found one man of that people worthy to live, and told that man to gather up all the animals of the region so that this man, and the region, could start fresh, this would correspond with the story factually. But what about theologically? If God meant to start the world afresh, and “all flesh had become corrupt” how could a local flood accomplish this? Again, this refers to “erets” and can be referring to a local group of people. God very often in these early days interacted with particular local groups, such as the Hebrews once they developed as a defined group. He did not hesitate to bring down punishment on this local group to the exclusion of others. If that region had become corrupt and God wished to destroy that region, the theological message is equally clear.

-The flood rose to about 8 feet above the “mountains”. The word used here is “har”, which can be mountain or hill, and it is very often translated as hill in the Old Testament. The translators chose the “mountain” translation since they, obviously, thought the passage referred to a global flood and this made sense. Translators are human and fallible.

Also, on a side note: Olive trees do not grow in the mountains, I believe, but only in low lying areas. So that dove was most likely in a low-lying area when the ark came to rest.

-God said He would not flood the world again. If it was a local flood, then wouldn’t this mean God lied since there have been many local floods? God repeats often in Genesis 9 that His covenant is with the people and life on the earth. The entire covenant can just as easily be read to say that He promises never to bring a flood to destroy all the life of a region, or could be even read as specifically referring to that specific region. This can be read as an intent never to bring complete judgment in that fashion, but allowing the natural activities do go about its business (thus any floods, however destructive, would not be an act of judgment). Or, it can be read more literally: that God will not allow any flood to destroy all life in a region. As far as I know, there has never been a flood which destroys a region to the last man. Again, the message of punishment, grace and redemption are all there for us to learn from, whether local or global.

So, since there are two different possible and legitimate honest interpretations of the Scripture, I am more likely to believe the one that seems to be supported by the vast weight of the evidence found in the world around us, including history, geology, biology and, yes, a certain amount of common sense. Of the greatest persuasion to me is the historical evidence since that is my background. There is no indication from the historical record that there was any widespread destruction of humanity in places like Egypt during the proposed flood period. In fact, the historical evidence basically belies this possibility entirely.
 
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GenemZ

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Vance said:
So, what did the writer of Genesis mean by “all the Earth” or “the whole Earth”? The Hebrew words are “kol” which means all and “erets” which means land, earth, ground or country. The important point is that there are numerous uses of this term “kol erets” throughout the Old Testament to mean almost every combination of these possible definitions. In some places it even refers to a people and not the land at all. There are about 200 uses of the term “kol erets” and the large majority of them refer to local geography (I can give numerous examples, if desired)

Thanks for your input. Good things to be aware of.

One interesting passage to note is to be found in Genesis 11.

" Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. As men moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there. They said to each other, "Come, let's make bricks and bake them thoroughly." They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. Then they said, "Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth." Genesis 11:1-4 niv

Notice something?

" ...so that we may make a name for ourselves and not be scattered over the face of the whole earth."

Why was not the same words translated here, used in for the flood? It also says, all the "world" spoke one language. Yet, all the world was situated on the plain of Shinar. I believe we need a better understanding of the word usage used back then. I believe the flood is telling us that all the "known earth" (by man) was to be destroyed. And, again I reiterate, Noah needed to be heard and warned by all who God was to judge. How could men, if living in in China, have heard such a warning?

" if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others..."2 Peter 2:5 niv

And, note what Peter tells us.... The flood was brought on its ungodly people. Man was only in his infancy. There was no great population explosion. Read the genealogies for that era, men were living to be hundreds of years old before they "begot, so and so." God brought the flood on the ungodly people. All the known earth (by man) was to be destroyed. And, the reason why ancient myths sound so similar, is because their ancestors witnessed the flood, and through oral tradition was passed down....and altered over time. Finally, the Holy Spirit set the record straight through Moses. "This is what really happened..."

Grace and peace, GeneZ
 
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United

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Last year I read a book on the "break through" of water creating the Black Sea about 7,500 years ago. Data given in the book seemed convincing & I am yet to hear anything disputing these findings. Does anyone think this could relate to the Genesis flood? I feel that it is possible (a vast area was affected), but the evidence indicates that the flooding did not extend as far as the Mountains of Ararat as mentioned in the bible.
 
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