One Jesus, two testimonies?

[MercyBurst]

C'mon guys... people can get different impressions from life, better to learn from each other than turn it into a contest of each trying to say they are absolutely all knowing and right on this... belief isn't the most reliable of processes in sinners ....

God is Love. We can know this by His sacrifice on the cross.

Jesus said the new law is love. I believe Him.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Yet, you don't have a single way to directly relate that to homosexuality.

Yes, we do. It is in scripture that sin separates us from God, and as homosexuality is a sin, no matter what hoops you jump through to try to deny it, Jesus says He will spew us out of His mouth, and deny He ever knew us when we compromise.

In the case of a homosexual, compromise is just the tip of the iceberg.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Jesus would never say such a thing to me.

Yes He would. He would say it to me and everyone who would stand in His presence with deliberate, disobedient, unrepentant sin in them.

Are you calling Jesus a liar now, to add to that?

 

[MercyBurst]

Originally Posted by davedjy
Yet, you don't have a single way to directly relate that to homosexuality.

The testimony of ONE ex-gay totally undoes ALL gay testimonies that say gay is ok.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175

[4.0] The spirit of same-sex sex kills the spiritual life of some believers, and blesses the spiritual life of others, but this can not come from the spirit of Christ, otherwise Christ Himself is a contradiction.


This is the crux of the debate, and now that Ohioprof is off the air-waves, maybe we can progress.

 

[davedjy]

Yes, we do. It is in scripture that sin separates us from God, and as homosexuality is a sin, no matter what hoops you jump through to try to deny it, Jesus says He will spew us out of His mouth, and deny He ever knew us when we compromise.

In the case of a homosexual, compromise is just the tip of the iceberg.

Pretty hard to compromise when you are being just the way you were created by God to start, nothing to justify. The other part of your claim relies on the false notion that Jesus will leave us.

Are you making His promise into a lie?

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

 

[davedjy]

The testimony of ONE ex-gay totally undoes ALL gay testimonies that say gay is ok.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175

[4.0] The spirit of same-sex sex kills the spiritual life of some believers, and blesses the spiritual life of others, but this can not come from the spirit of Christ, otherwise Christ Himself is a contradiction.

Actually, what all research and evidence that has been done by ALL credible mental health foundations, "undoes" any ex-gay "testimony".

 

[Floatingaxe]

Same-sex committed relationships do good in society, and they harm no one.

That depends on what you consider good. God's opinion differs with our view of good.

Isaiah 64:6
We are all infected and impure with sin.
When we display our righteous deeds,
they are nothing but filthy rags.
Like autumn leaves, we wither and fall,
and our sins sweep us away like the wind.

Romans 11:6
And since it is through God’s kindness, then it is not by their good works. For in that case, God’s grace would not be what it really is—free and undeserved.

 

[MercyBurst]

Actually, what all research and evidence that has been done by ALL credible mental health foundations, "undoes" any ex-gay "testimony".

What about the ones that are celibate because they believe gay sex is sin? What about DMagoh?

Dave, your argument is defeated.

All we have to do is find one Christian believer that has a weak conscience on same-sex sex, and your argument is all washed up.

Here's a place you can start looking:

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/exgaydiscussionboard/

As the saying goes, "the woods are full of them."

 

[Floatingaxe]

Pretty hard to compromise when you are being just the way you were created by God to start, nothing to justify. The other part of your claim relies on the false notion that Jesus will leave us.

Are you making His promise into a lie?

". . .for he hath said, I WILL NEVER LEAVE THEE, nor forsake thee." Hebrews 13:5

Compromise and whitewash is all you offer. Ungodly twosome!

If one forsakes God and His ways, He was never His to begin with.

 

[MercyBurst]

Compromise and whitewash is all you offer. Ungodly twosome!

If one forsakes God and His ways, He was never His to begin with.

He'll never forsake us, but many have forsaken Him, and there is no hope apart from repentance.

 

[GenemZ]

I'm not going to bother to answer most of this, because I have already made my position clear on most of these points.

You made your position known. Not, clear. If you had, I would have not requested a response to what I had said, in the way I had said it.

The one point I will address is your comparison of same-sex committed relationships to murder.

Not simply, murder. Murdering under certain circumstances only. In a manner that closed minded people living in the dark ages do not understand.

If someone desires to be murdered? And, another has murder lust? It would be an excellent way to keep those with murder lust from harming others who wish not to be murdered. Its only right!


It will require state sanctioned licenses, of course. Legal contracts, etc. It will save lives, and keep those with murder lust from committing the sin of traditional murder.


It will work when enough people are no longer closed minded and living in the past. A new era will have arrived. One of enlightenment.



And? I do not care how you feel about mutually consented murder. I do not abide by your system of morals. I feel its OK under the circumstances I gave you. That's all that matters to me.


Your opinion does not matter. For you have been simply conditioned by being inculcated by the teachings of your church. Your church teaches that the traditional concept that murder is wrong.

Loving someone of the same sex is not comparable to murdering someone.

The circumstances I gave you justify murder under certain circumstances eludes you. I did not say all murder. I said, consentual murder. You must get away from your church's teachings and listen to what I say. You are not hearing what I am telling you. You keep looking at it from the traditional perspective.

Are you against the saving of innocent lives? It seems you might be at that. There are people who have a desire to be murdered. God created them for those who desire to murder. Its our closed minded Biblical thinking that has prevented this 'natural' expression from finding its proper place.

People with murder lust are forced to murder innocent people because our restrictive morality prevents them from finding what they were designed by God for. God made them that way. Who are you to say they are sinful?

Same-sex committed relationships may be against some people's beliefs, but most Americans accept them, according to recent polls.

Give it time. Consentual murder will be high on the polls too. Especially, when people learn that innocent lives will be spared.


A few years back Americans were just as opposed to homosexuality as they are now with murder in any form. Yet, given the right reasoning and the promoting it over several decades, we will some day see mutually consentual murder right up there with the open minded enlightened folks they will have become.



Remember.. Homosexuality used to be viewed as being one of the most replusive thing a person can do. Look how enlightened we all have become!

Likewise, I have confidence in my fellowman that reason will prevail. Mutually consentual murder will some day be the means to cut down on crime, keep prisons less crowded, and wasting tax payers' money.

Same-sex committed relationships do good in society, and they harm no one.

For a person who wants to die by murder? And, his murder will take the place of someone who does not want to die? It will not only not harm anyone. It will keep others who would be otherwise be caused harm, to be free of harm!


In contrast to homosexual marriage its even more beneficial to society than gay marriage could ever be. Gay marriage does not save innocent lives. Mutually consentual murder, does! It would be a greater good for all! And, those with murder lust will not have to sneak around and could live much more productive lives.

Same-sex committed relationships are not illegal, and in a growing number of states, they are recognized by law either through marriage or through civil union laws. Murder, in contrast, is illegal everywhere.

Give it time. When the people are ready it will be legalized. Because, I know most people are reasonable and will be more highly educated than ever before. Saving innocent lives should be our priority! Reason will prevail! People with closed minds will be ignored and left behind.

You raised the question of the consensual ending of a life, which is a whole different issue.

That was not what I said. It pertained to those who have murder lust. Not euthanasia.


Some are born that way. They had no choice. This way, under controlled conditions that will be legalized, these misunderstood people can satisfy their drive to murder will not have to commit illegal acts of murdering someone who does not want to be murdered. It will save innocent lives!



Some people do desire to be murdered by the way. I know you may see that as being strange, but that does not matter. I do not go by your system of values. Nor, do I believe in them.


I am law abiding. So, it must first be made legal. Then we can see innocent lives saved, and prisons less filled. Its will be win-win for future society! A truly enlightened society! Where higher human reasoning and education prevails. Not, the Bible.





Wishing you a nice Day, GeneZ




.
.

 

[Brieuse]

Compromise and whitewash is all you offer. Ungodly twosome!

If one forsakes God and His ways, He was never His to begin with.

Really?

That contradicts Jesus' teaching on the prodigal son. Away with thee.

 

[Floatingaxe]

Really?

That contradicts Jesus' teaching on the prodigal son. Away with thee.

There is no contradiction. The prodigal WAS THE FATHER'S SON! At least the son was remorseful and returned to his father's house. Homosexuals who like it DON'T.


Disobedient, unrepentant people are not children of the Almighty God. They may think they are, but are deluded by Satan into thinking they are.

Methinks there will be thousands of mighty shocked and horrified souls on that Day.

 

[Brieuse]

There is no contradiction. The prodigal WAS THE FATHER'S SON! At least the son was remorseful and returned to his father's house. Homosexuals who like it DON'T.


Disobedient, unrepentant people are not children of the Almighty God. They may think they are, but are deluded by Satan into thinking they are.

Methinks there will be thousands of mighty shocked and horrified souls on that Day.

Really? So you teach a gospel for the "elect" only?

 

[Floatingaxe]

Really? So you teach a gospel for the "elect" only?

Where did you get that ridiculous notion?

 

[GenemZ]

Really? So you teach a gospel for the "elect" only?

Is there another Gospel for those who refuse to believe?

Its the same Gospel message. The response to it is what makes the difference.

2 Corinthians 2:15-16a (New International Version)
"For we are to God the aroma of Christ among those who are being saved and those who are perishing. To the one we are the smell of death; to the other, the fragrance of life."


​

Both the elect and the perishing are exposed to the same thing. Its the reaction to the message that determines who is the elect. Not the message itself. What turns off the perishing does not dissuade those who will believe. There is no such thing as ...."If I were only told it this way, I would believe."


Some will accept the drawing of God. Others, resist.In Christ, GeneZ​

 

[GenemZ]

Compromise and whitewash is all you offer. Ungodly twosome!

If one forsakes God and His ways, He was never His to begin with.

Careful, now! The young man who was sleeping with his mother in Corinth? Paul still called him a brother. And, Paul never said he was never saved, nor that he could lose his salvation. He could lose all his eternal rewards, but not his salvation. Paul said he was to be kicked out of fellowship with members of the church, not salvation.



Read, please.. carefully the following!

1 Corinthians 3:13-15 (New International Version)
"his work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each man's work. If what he has built survives, he will receive his reward. If it is burned up, he will suffer loss; he himself will be saved, but only as one escaping through the flames."


​

There will be believers in Heaven with NOTHING to show for their salvation other than they trusted in Christ at some point in time.

2 Timothy 2:13 (New International Version)
"if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."
​

The Lord will not turn away a faithless believer. For once we believe in Christ we are placed in union with Christ by means of the baptism of the Spirit!

That is why Jesus sees all believers as an extension of Himself! As His body! His Bride!

Acts 9:4 (New International Version)
"He fell to the ground and heard a voice say to him, "Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"
​

Paul had thought he was persecuting the church only. But, Jesus called the Church, "Me." We are his Bride. We are one flesh!

Jesus can not disown Himself, even if a believer is faithless. Yet, the faithless believer will be refused rewards and eternal blessings that will cause a weeping and gnashing of teeth during the time he is denied access to the Millennium reign of Christ on earth.


There are certain gays who refuse to give up their ways after they are saved. Many have died of AIDS as a result of their faithlessness.

1 John 5:16-17 (New International Version)
"If anyone sees his brother commit a sin that does not lead to death, he should pray and God will give him life. I refer to those whose sin does not lead to death.

There is a sin that leads to death. I am not saying that he should pray about that. All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death."
​

God will not be mocked. Unfaithful believers die the sin onto death. They have no peace in their dying. No certainty of Heaven in their last breath. But, Jesus can not disown Himself.

2 Timothy 2:13 (New International Version)
"if we are faithless,
he will remain faithful,
for he cannot disown himself."


​

That was written to believers, about believers. Paul did not say... if the unbeliever is faithless. Paul said "we." Members of the Church of God.


Grace and peace, GeneZ
​

​

 

[Floatingaxe]

The Lord will not turn away a faithless believer. For once we believe in Christ we are placed in union with Christ by means of the baptism of the Spirit!

Careful too!

Revelation 3:16
So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will vomit you out of My mouth.

Jesus, speaking to the Church! Christians! How would you like to be considered vomit in Jesus' mouth? Do you think vomit has a place in heaven?

I wouldn't want to test Him in that.

His call is for us as believers to either be like cold fresh and invigorating springs, or like hot, soothing and healing springs. Which kind of Christian is the apostatic one who denies following after Christ's example? A Christian is a follower after Christ, after all.

Yes, Jesus is always faithful to one with faith. But not all who claim to---do. It is borne out in a life, and a life of sensuality is not a life of faith.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Olliefranz
This comes from a few pages back

No you don't speak for all of us who believe the Bible as God's word. I believe the Boble as God's Word and you definitely do not speak for me.

No I speak for millions though, which is what I said. I am just pointing out to you that millions would see you as not believing the Bible with your gay affirming ideas. Remember it was you who implied I was speaking for myself, I am just clarifying that millions of us agree the same as me.

 

[Phinehas2]

Dear Ohioprof,

I do not necessarily believe the Biblical testimony of Jesus, but I believe that some of what is reported in the Bible is what he actually said, based on the work of scholars who have tried to discern what Jesus probably really said. The fact that I don't believe that everything in the Bible attributed to Jesus is what he actually said does not mean that I try to follow a different Jesus from you. There was only one actual Jesus. It means that I regard Jesus differently than you do. Different Christians look upon Jesus differently.

Yes I know, you have told me this several times before and I disagree because if you don’t believe all the Bible you most definately do believe a different Jesus to me beause you don’t believe about some of the things about Jesus. What I asked you to consider was from where other than the Bible you can know about God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. The Christian church decided that the canon scripture was true in order to eliminate false teaching. What you seem to be saying is you dont recognise the Christian church or its teaching. That’s ok except if you don’t recognise the Christian church’s understanding of Jesus Christ, you have a different one. Unless of course your motive is to undermine/replace the historic, apostolic Christian faith once delivered.
But I also ask you, how do these Jesus seminar people know what bits to believe and what not to believe?

We gay people are just people. Ordinary people. We are not dragons, not emissaries of Satan. Just people. We are your neighbors, your co-workers, your relatives.I as a gay person am asking that Christians accept us as we are and stop denigrating us and denigrating our love relationships and our families. That's what Jesus would call for. I have no doubt about that. I firmly believe that Jesus would stand with gay people, and would embrace us as we are.

Firstly this is about Jesus and His teaching not about ‘gay’ as some Christians who have same-sex attraction know that same-sex sex is sin. You are confused therefore, as has already been pointed out to you many times, that there are Christians who are ‘gay’ and accepted, what you are referring to is not gays being accepted but same-sex sex, and that cant be accepted as Jesus NT teaching shows the sexual union is to be man and woman Matt 19, and same-sex sex is a sin Romans 1. The issues is that you don’t believe all the Bible and you certainly don’t believe the Bible on this issue