One Jesus, two testimonies?

[MercyBurst]

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175

[4.4] The SIN epitaph for "gay Christian" doctrine, ironically, is a lack of compassion for and a total disregard of struggling believers in Christ that are ex-gay.

The "gay Christian" argument utterly fails on this one point.

 

[Ohioprof]

Jesus would say to you, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ Matthew 7:23

Jesus would never say such a thing to me.

 

[Ohioprof]

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175

[4.4] The SIN epitaph for "gay Christian" doctrine, ironically, is a lack of compassion for and a total disregard of struggling believers in Christ that are ex-gay.

The "gay Christian" argument utterly fails on this one point.

Not at all. I personally feel much compassion for people who imagine they are "ex-gay." I don't approve of the ex-gay industry, which is nothing but a scam.

 

[stranger]

You clearly did not read what I wrote, then. As stated, abomination = ceremonial/ritual impurity. The ritual was a pagan sex practice mixed with idolatry. You cannot prove that homosexuality is not blessed by God by text being omitted.


.

Well I did read what you wrote, and unsurprisingly I have heard it before ... but the scripture says no such thing, you simply added what you wanted to believe as is commonplace in religion these days... There is nothing to debate if you are going to add things to scripture which ain't there . I am not here to debate thing you made up [or more likely just copied from others who made them up, since, as I said , i have heard it all before... the scripture says no such thing , what more can I say...? ... if you really believe it does ,then good luck convincing God, i am not your judge, i am just here to point at what i think the scripture makes clear, i am not here to convince you one way or the other ... so thanks for your view that scripture left all this out which you claim, but somehow implies it... very interesting,m but i ahve heard iot ebfore and am still unconvinced in extereme, but you may believe what you want, it is a free world ]

 

[Ohioprof]

I picked these two quotes out from this long-standing largely unprofitable debate because they iluustrate how easy it is to polarise one's mind without instead reading what God has said , but reading things into it which He never said ...

This verse is part of the law agreed by Israel [only] with their God , also the God of Jesus the Jew :-

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It does NOT apply to those who are not Israel [though curiously many today claim they are Israel , who are clearly not Israel, yet they would not accept this law]

BUT it does say that the act of a man lying with a man as witha awoman, the 'homosexaul' act is an abomination to God...

Whilst the law of the old covenant applies only to Israel who agreed with it [under paiin of its curse for breaking it] , nevertheless God has not changed , this passage infroms mankind that the ACT of homosexuals following their desire to sodomise and perform other homosexual acts is an abomination to God.... it is not the old covenant law which condemns it , but God's law of love which Jesus enunciated , that we must love God...

One cannot love God by doing what he regards as an abomination...

Thus it is not being a homosexual that is abominable to God, only the homosexual acts like sodomy...

The problem then is not in being 'gay' , but in acting in abominable way because of the lust to do so...

Heterosexuals are just as subject to sin because of lust , it is not just homosexuals , nor is it any easier for either to avoid acting in lust... but for both it is sin , excepting only that man and wife are allowed to desire each other and procreate.

Now it is obvious that a man cannot procreate with a man , there is no sense in sexual marriage between man and mman, or woman and woman ... the very essence behind sex is the mixing of genes that keeps the population healthy [hence banning of in-breeding in scripture] , it simply is not sex when it is homosexual because same sex partners do not have the means to procreate ... sperm ejacualted just anywhere,even up a man's anus, that never meet an egg, have no chance of making new life , it is simply an unnatural act to do this and God finds it abominable since not only is it not an act of procreation , but it causes many health problems because it is unnatural

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Men surely can have brotherly love for each other, and live together as friends and companions if they will, but homosexuall acts are an abomination to God , one cannot change that , and one should not confuse lust with love... nor homosexual acts with sex

There is of course no such thing as homosexual 'marrage' in scripture, but if men want to profess brotherly love for each other in public that is fine... just be aware that to Jesus love is for everyone, one's brotherly love should not be directed at one person only, and it is not an excuse for homosexual acts ... since marriage is an exclusion of sexual relationship , there can be no such thing as homosexual marriage, no matter if the law of some men allows it against God law of Love set by Jesus as commandment ...

Again, the word 'love' is most ambiguous, and teh ambiguities have been abused by many, but the scripture makes it clear, it is not homosexuality that is a sin, but homosexual ACTS ...

I do not believe that "homosexual acts" are sin.

 

[Ohioprof]

Irrelevant to a spiritually struggling ex-gay Brother or Sister in Christ. You just keep repeating yourself.

Spirits don't have a sex or a sex orientation.


Hence, all your comments are irrelevant to the OP.


Is anyone ready to talk about spirituality in Christ?

Carnality is really getting old.

You keep repeating yourself also. That's because we disagree about some fundamental questions, and it's clear that we are not going to agree about them. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I will continue to post what I believe, whether you agree with me or not.

 

[stranger]

Not at all. I personally feel much compassion for people who imagine they are "ex-gay." I don't approve of the ex-gay industry, which is nothing but a scam.

I think you are both right ... there is a very evil 'industry' cashing in on people escaping from the fryin pan into the fire of modern aposate religion of sinners [not saints!] but equally there are a few strong enough to see through the emoptiness of hmosexual lust and seek the love they know in their hearts... tis' and evil world and has many ways to corrupt men, perhaps the worst is modern religion because it masquerades as being of Jesus...[but to be fair Jesus does warn folks about this in nscripture, not his fault is folks will not bother to read what he said and instead trust sinners to tell them [tell them what they want to hear of course, not what Jesus is recorded as saying]

 

[MercyBurst]

You keep repeating yourself also.

yeah I know. Spirits don't have a sex, and you just don't seem to get it.

That's because we disagree about some fundamental questions, and it's clear that we are not going to agree about them. We will just have to agree to disagree.

I will continue to post what I believe, whether you agree with me or not.

You can not show compassion toward ex-gays who have decided to become celibate to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your argument is an utter and total failure, because it lacks compassion.

 

[MercyBurst]

Not at all. I personally feel much compassion for people who imagine they are "ex-gay." I don't approve of the ex-gay industry, which is nothing but a scam.

Your argument is a scam. Just a few posts back you said these people didn't even exist.

Have your ever prayed for an ex-gay?

You do not accept celibacy as a sacrifice to Jesus Christ.

Ex-gay people do exist no matter how much ill-will you feel toward them. They are my Christian brothers and sisters in Christ, though you may feel they are not.

 

[stranger]

I do not believe that "homosexual acts" are sin.

Everyone is entitled to believe what they like... I have no problem with your belief [or your acts if consenting or even if just conceptual]... I am not a judge We could discuss the basis of belief possibly ? An atheist friend of mine sincerely and deeply believe that people only believe whatever they want to believe ... I know why i think that is very common, but I also know what teh scripture says about faith, that it is given by God to the few in this life... Thus it may be that there are different kinds of belief based on differnet approached to deciding what to believe... It may not interest you of course?

 

[Ohioprof]

You keep removing Jesus words out of its historical context.

You claim to reference the Bible for historical value? Yet, you ignore the historical value.

In Jesus day? A gay neighbor would have been stoned to death.

What if your neighbor was a child molester? Would you love him/her as you do yourself?

In Jesus day, a child molester would have been publicly stoned to death. Possibly, because the neighbors reported it. Same would hold true for someone who was openly homosexual.





Then, if that's the case... You are never going to convince Bible believing Christians that you are going to be shown approval for what you do when you stand before the Lord of Life.

So, why do you keep trying to get us to agree with you?

Unless you can get the Bible to endorse your desire, you will be making no sense to Christians who follow the Bible as being the Word of God.






Nor, did it condemn a marriage between a man and his sheep. Your point was?




So? What are you hoping to accomplish here with Christians who do follow the Bible?

I am trying to see what it is you wishing to achieve here. All I can see is you wish to try to disprove the Bible, and come here to see if it can be done. At least that would make sense, even though I see it as a wrong thing to do.



My Church?

Did you mean, the Bible?

Any Bible following Church would see your point of view as heretical. It has nothing to do with a given church. It has to do with the Bible's teachings that most churches try to follow.





Great! I am happy for you. Now, what's is your objective here? To convince whom, of what?





In a democracy where people vote, its up to the voters voice. In a dictatorship like Communism? You could be put to death for what you desire.



First of all.... marriage has always been seen as being man and wife. Its this new notion you are promoting which does not really fit into what was always taken for granted.


Tell me this...

Would it be murder if the one being murdered consented to being murdered?

If it was a mutual agreement between consenting adults?

Papers were signed and the intentions documented? Why would it be illegal murder if the one being murdered wanted to be killed?

That way, its good for society in general. For those with murder lust would murder only those who want to die. That way, those who do not want to be murdered would not be harmed.

I think it should be legalized. Think of all the innocent lives that would be saved. It would be for the good of society.

It would save innocent lives. Who are you to say its wrong? It will save innocent lives. That's good!

Murder is only bad when the one being murdered does not want to die. Its time we came out of the dark ages and face it, some people want to die. They suffer every day they are alive. Let's legalize murder for consenting adults.....

I'm not going to bother to answer most of this, because I have already made my position clear on most of these points. The one point I will address is your comparison of same-sex committed relationships to murder. Loving someone of the same sex is not comparable to murdering someone. Same-sex committed relationships may be against some people's beliefs, but most Americans accept them, according to recent polls. Same-sex committed relationships do good in society, and they harm no one. Same-sex committed relationships are not illegal, and in a growing number of states, they are recognized by law either through marriage or through civil union laws. Murder, in contrast, is illegal everywhere.

You raised the question of the consensual ending of a life, which is a whole different issue. Euthanasia is a different topic from same-sex relationships, and a complex topic, and it deserves a full discussion in a thread of its own, I think.

 

[Ohioprof]

Your argument is a scam. These people do exist no matter how much ill-will you feel toward them. They are my Christian brothers and sisters in Christ, though they are not yours.

I have said that I feel no ill will toward people who imagine they are "ex-gays." My criticism is directed to the "ex-gay" industry, which is a scam.

I have to go read to my daughter now and get her into bed. More tomorrow, I'm sure. Sleep well, Mercy and others.

 

[stranger]

You can not show compassion toward ex-gays who have decided to become celibate to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your argument is an utter and total failure, because it lacks compassion.

C'mon guys... people can get different impressions from life, better to learn from each other than turn it into a contest of each trying to say they are absolutely all knowing and right on this... belief isn't the most reliable of processes in sinners ....

 

[Ohioprof]

yeah I know. Spirits don't have a sex, and you just don't seem to get it.



You can not show compassion toward ex-gays who have decided to become celibate to serve the Lord Jesus Christ.

Your argument is an utter and total failure, because it lacks compassion.

I am celibate. Why do you imagine that I lack compassion for other people who are also celibate?

I have said that I feel compassion for people who think of themselves as "ex-gays." But if they are really so happy being "ex-gay," then why are you so worried about them? Why are we talking about them at all? There are real social problems to discuss, and one of them is the negative treatment that is often aimed at gay people. You don't seem to care much about that, Mercy.

Anyhow, good night.

 

[Ohioprof]

C'mon guys... people can get different impressions from life, better to learn from each other than turn it into a contest of each trying to say they are absolutely all knowing and right on this... belief isn't the most reliable of processes in sinners ....

I am not a guy.

When it comes to talking about my own experiences as a gay person, I know my experiences better than anyone else does. I cannot speak for what is right for everyone, but I can and do speak about what is right for me, and what I believe. I acknowledge that I speak my beliefs only; I do not claim to speak "the truth," only my truth.

 

[MercyBurst]

I have said that I feel no ill will toward people who imagine they are "ex-gays."

Yet you preach a doctrine that goes against their own conscience. This is not love for weak Chrsitian brothers and sisters.

My criticism is directed to the "ex-gay" industry, which is a scam.

Your point was already covered in sec [5.5b], and it is irrelevant.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175

[5.0] So in the end:

- [5.1] it doesn't matter about sin definitions.
- [5.2] it doesn't matter what anyone believes about the gay lifestyle.
- [5.3] it doesn't matter about monogamous loving relationships.
- [5.3b] it doesn't matter that someone feels their gay relationship is without sin, because we are talking about ex-gay Christians.
- [5.4] it doesn't matter about bible translations.
- [5.5] it doesn't matter about who wants to call themselves a brother or sister in Christ.
- [5.5b] it dosn't matter if ex-gay therapy is a total failure and a fraud.
- [5.6] it doesn't even matter about sex at all.

[5.7] What matters is the body of Christ, and the spiritual damage this gay-affirming doctrine has caused that says gay sex is not sin. Some Christians that struggle with their Christian beliefs are confused and tempted to go against their conscience. As long as any Christian brother or sister struggles with this issue it doesn't matter about those that don't struggle with it, or those that returned to same-sex sex.

[5.8] The whole gay-affirming argument can be defeated with OUR Christian love for brothers and sisters in Christ that are being hurt spiritually by this same-sex sex doctrine.

 

[Ohioprof]

Yet you preach a doctrine that goes against their own conscience. This is not love for weak Chrsitian brothers and sisters.



Your point was already covered in sec [5.5b], and it is irrelevant.

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175

[5.0] So in the end:

- [5.1] it doesn't matter about sin definitions.
- [5.2] it doesn't matter what anyone believes about the gay lifestyle.
- [5.3] it doesn't matter about monogamous loving relationships.
- [5.3b] it doesn't matter that someone feels their gay relationship is without sin, because we are talking about ex-gay Christians.
- [5.4] it doesn't matter about bible translations.
- [5.5] it doesn't matter about who wants to call themselves a brother or sister in Christ.
- [5.5b] it dosn't matter if ex-gay therapy is a total failure and a fraud.
- [5.6] it doesn't even matter about sex at all.

[5.7] What matters is the body of Christ, and the spiritual damage this gay-affirming doctrine has caused that says gay sex is not sin. Some Christians that struggle with their Christian beliefs are confused and tempted to go against their conscience. As long as any Christian brother or sister struggles with this issue it doesn't matter about those that don't struggle with it, or those that returned to same-sex sex.

[5.8] The whole gay-affirming argument can be defeated with OUR Christian love for brothers and sisters in Christ that are being hurt spiritually by this same-sex sex doctrine.

When I speak my beliefs, which is what this forum is for, I am not hurting anyone. And I do not preach a doctrine. I just state honestly what I believe. I speak only for myself. I do not claim to speak for God or for all gay people or for all Christians.

 

[MercyBurst]

I am celibate. Why do you imagine that I lack compassion for other people who are also celibate?

If you are celibate (by your choice) then your argument sounds rather hypocrital. Why would you be preaching gay sex to others when you abstain yourself?

Perhaps what you really mean is that you don't have a partner at present time, but would take one. That is not the same thing as god-honored celibacy, and quite misleading.

Either way it sounds phoney to me..

 

[stranger]

genez' comment raises the reasonable point that people may be consenting to sin , yet it still be sin I hate this life and would not lift a finger to stop anyone murdering me except to point out that it might not be something that person could live with afterward, or accept God's judgment upon the point... It is reasonable to discuss the smae considerations in realtionship to consensual sodomy [which can be heterosexual as well as homosexual of course]

 

[MercyBurst]

When I speak my beliefs, which is what this forum is for, I am not hurting anyone. And I do not preach a doctrine. I just state honestly what I believe. I speak only for myself. I do not claim to speak for God or for all gay people or for all Christians.

Yet you have nothing to say about the spirit of Jesus Christ, which is the reason I started this thread.

Is anyone ready to talk about the Spirit which has no sex, sex orientation, or sexuality?

Should I just put you on ignore?