One Jesus, two testimonies?

[MercyBurst]

Being gay is not and never was a "sin." There is no removal of sin, because being gay never was a sin in the first place. Being gay is simply a characteristic of some people, and as Christians, we should accept people as they are, not try to change them into someone they are not.

Irrelevant to a spiritually struggling ex-gay Brother or Sister in Christ. You just keep repeating yourself.

Spirits don't have a sex or a sex orientation.


Hence, all your comments are irrelevant to the OP.


Is anyone ready to talk about spirituality in Christ?

Carnality is really getting old.

 

[davedjy]

Jesus cares about one lamb that falls, as DMagoh. As Chrsitian brothers and sisters we do the same. Your argument is defeated with love.

"what's love gotta do with it"? -Tina Turner
I am addressing your generalization, not the person (DMagoh).

Indeed, so if we care for them why would we praise promiscuity? Your argument once again is defeated with love.

Who said anything about praising promiscuity?
YOU were the one that equated a sexual orientation with an addiction, then you use Dmagoh as your "proof".

 

[stranger]

I disagree with your view that `being gay is not a sin`

I don't have sex with anyone.

I picked these two quotes out from this long-standing largely unprofitable debate because they iluustrate how easy it is to polarise one's mind without instead reading what God has said , but reading things into it which He never said ...

This verse is part of the law agreed by Israel [only] with their God , also the God of Jesus the Jew :-

Leviticus 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

It does NOT apply to those who are not Israel [though curiously many today claim they are Israel , who are clearly not Israel, yet they would not accept this law]

BUT it does say that the act of a man lying with a man as witha awoman, the 'homosexaul' act is an abomination to God...

Whilst the law of the old covenant applies only to Israel who agreed with it [under paiin of its curse for breaking it] , nevertheless God has not changed , this passage infroms mankind that the ACT of homosexuals following their desire to sodomise and perform other homosexual acts is an abomination to God.... it is not the old covenant law which condemns it , but God's law of love which Jesus enunciated , that we must love God...

One cannot love God by doing what he regards as an abomination...

Thus it is not being a homosexual that is abominable to God, only the homosexual acts like sodomy...

The problem then is not in being 'gay' , but in acting in abominable way because of the lust to do so...

Heterosexuals are just as subject to sin because of lust , it is not just homosexuals , nor is it any easier for either to avoid acting in lust... but for both it is sin , excepting only that man and wife are allowed to desire each other and procreate.

Now it is obvious that a man cannot procreate with a man , there is no sense in sexual marriage between man and mman, or woman and woman ... the very essence behind sex is the mixing of genes that keeps the population healthy [hence banning of in-breeding in scripture] , it simply is not sex when it is homosexual because same sex partners do not have the means to procreate ... sperm ejacualted just anywhere,even up a man's anus, that never meet an egg, have no chance of making new life , it is simply an unnatural act to do this and God finds it abominable since not only is it not an act of procreation , but it causes many health problems because it is unnatural

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Men surely can have brotherly love for each other, and live together as friends and companions if they will, but homosexuall acts are an abomination to God , one cannot change that , and one should not confuse lust with love... nor homosexual acts with sex

There is of course no such thing as homosexual 'marrage' in scripture, but if men want to profess brotherly love for each other in public that is fine... just be aware that to Jesus love is for everyone, one's brotherly love should not be directed at one person only, and it is not an excuse for homosexual acts ... since marriage is an exclusion of sexual relationship , there can be no such thing as homosexual marriage, no matter if the law of some men allows it against God law of Love set by Jesus as commandment ...

Again, the word 'love' is most ambiguous, and teh ambiguities have been abused by many, but the scripture makes it clear, it is not homosexuality that is a sin, but homosexual ACTS ...

 

[davedjy]

Show us where in the Bible that there is guidance offered for a gay marriage!

This argument is useless either way, since we don't see a condemnation of gay marriage or endorsement.

If you could base your stand about gay marriage upon the Word of God? And produce passages that specifically reveal guidance for homosexuals in marriage? You would not even need to be here in attempt to get Christians to see your way. It would be a non-issue.

Or maybe you should give us the verse that says that marriage is bound by two opposite sex genders only. Once again, these arguments aren't really useful on either side of the debate.

 

[davedjy]

Whilst the law of the old covenant applies only to Israel who agreed with it [under paiin of its curse for breaking it] , nevertheless God has not changed , this passage infroms mankind that the ACT of homosexuals following their desire to sodomise and perform other homosexual acts is an abomination to God.... it is not the old covenant law which condemns it , but God's law of love which Jesus enunciated , that we must love God...

...do you feel at liberty to uphold ALL the law, then since you freely admit it applied to Israel? If homosexuality was a sexually immoral sin or "wicked", they would've used the word "zimmah". Abomination in Leviticus refers to a ceremonial/ritual impurity (toevah). As stated, the ritual was that men were dressing as women and having sex to a false god in a pagan sex practice in the Canaanite religion. This was the ritual, hence, why there isn't a verse condemning women with women in that passage. However, if you see the verse following it says that nor shall any man OR woman lie with a beast.


Do you for example cut your hair? (I bet you do) if so you are sinning by breaking Lev. 19:27

Leviticus also says:

That eating pork is a sin (Lev. 11:7)

That eating lobster or shrimp or scallops or oysters is a sin (Lev. 11:10-12)

That wearing clothing made of different fabrics is a sin (Lev. 19:19)

That partaking in modern agriculture is a sin (Lev. 19:19)

That shaving is a sin (Lev. 19:27)

That contact with a woman during her period is a sin (Lev. 20:18)

That dining on escargot is a sin (Lev. 11:42)

That attending Church while wearing glasses is a sin or allowing anyone wearing glasses into your church is a sin(Lev 21:20)

That allowing anyone born with scoliosis into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

That allowing anyone who is handicapped into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

***Taken from Mr. Pirate's post***

it simply is not sex when it is homosexual because same sex partners do not have the means to procreate ... sperm ejacualted just anywhere,even up a man's anus, that never meet an egg, have no chance of making new life , it is simply an unnatural act to do this and God finds it abominable since not only is it not an act of procreation , but it causes many health problems because it is unnatural

...so unnatural that it is displayed as a valid sexual orientation that occurs in lots of nature, including over 450 vertebrate species. Arguments on what is "natural" don't hold water using a "procreation" debate.

What "health problems" are you referring to with anal sex? There are certain precautions that are supposed to be taken when this is done.

Romans 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

As stated with this verse, the words "phusikos" and "phusis" in the Greek refer to a person's Natural disposition or natural inclination. Gays and lesbians are naturally attracted to the same sex.

 

[stranger]

To my Brothers and Sisters in Christ,

We have two opposing testimonies regarding spiritual life in Christ, but only one of them can be true. There is only one Christ – not two of them, and only one standard for Christian conduct – not two standards.

I got this far [above quote] through the OP, hoping that someone was at last going to notice that 'christianity' is divided right down to individuals having different beliefs , and thus that its division shows none of it is of God's truth through Jesus about love [not sin] except that faith of the few united saints of Israel.

The scriptural fact si that Jesus' division of men at his return is on basis of who is a saint by then, and who is still a sinner :-

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
....

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
​

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus thus came to make division between the few saints and the many sinners , not between 'gays' and heterosexual ...

A 'gay' person who avoided the abomination of homosexual acts could very easily become a saint , a heterosexual is quite capable of remaining a sinner though following one or other varuiation of perverted [apostate] religion all his life...

The distinction made by God is simple, sure and a SEAL , one either stops sinning or does not, by the time of Jesus' return, else one will die a sinner and not live again until the second resurrection [ a new beginning because sin's wages are paid in full by death - Romans 6:7]

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,
having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his.
And,
Let every one that nameth the name of Christ
depart from iniquity.

[ 2 Timothy 2:19 ]

One has no choice then if one follows Jesus, one must depart from all sin and become a saint , but FEW will do so, few will find this strait narrow way possible

many will cry out to Jesus "Lord,Lord" when he returns, and he will say he never knew them and is not their lord because they do not obey him and love, but continue to sin ...

Sinners preach in churches that Jeus came to bring peace now, but he said otherwise, that he will divide even families into saints and sinners... and there will be sinners by the billion left nashing their teeth ...

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:

The irony is of course that Jesus says that the many who go by the broad way are saved much later [after the second resurrection then] -Rev 7:9-10 - by becoming saints in the new earth :-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

The problem for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike is ceasing from sin either now or in the new earth kingdom come... heterosexuals have the SAME problems with lust as homosexuals... more sympathy and love is required on BOTH sides ... the deabte has done little but polarise the sides and BOTh lost sight of God's truth as the answer... that is a serious error...
​

​

 

[stranger]

...do you feel at liberty to uphold ALL the law, then since you freely admit it applied to Israel? If homosexuality was a sexually immoral sin or "wicked", they would've used the word "zimmah". Abomination in Leviticus refers to a ceremonial/ritual impurity (toevah). As stated, the ritual was that men were dressing as women and having sex to a false god in a pagan sex practice in the Canaanite religion. This was the ritual, hence, why there isn't a verse condemning women with women in that passage. However, if you see the verse following it says that nor shall any man OR woman lie with a beast.


Do you for example cut your hair? (I bet you do) if so you are sinning by breaking Lev. 19:27

Leviticus also says:

That eating pork is a sin (Lev. 11:7)

That eating lobster or shrimp or scallops or oysters is a sin (Lev. 11:10-12)

That wearing clothing made of different fabrics is a sin (Lev. 19:19)

That partaking in modern agriculture is a sin (Lev. 19:19)

That shaving is a sin (Lev. 19:27)

That contact with a woman during her period is a sin (Lev. 20:18)

That dining on escargot is a sin (Lev. 11:42)

That attending Church while wearing glasses is a sin or allowing anyone wearing glasses into your church is a sin(Lev 21:20)

That allowing anyone born with scoliosis into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

That allowing anyone who is handicapped into your church is a sin (Lev 21:20)

***Taken from Mr. Pirate's post***

...so unnatural that it is displayed as a valid sexual orientation that occurs in lots of nature, including over 450 vertebrate species. Arguments on what is "natural" don't hold water using a "procreation" debate.

What "health problems" are you referring to with anal sex? There are certain precautions that are supposed to be taken when this is done.

As stated with this verse, the words "phusikos" and "phusis" in the Greek refer to a person's Natural disposition or natural inclination. Gays and lesbians are naturally attracted to the same sex.

As I explained, but you have sadly ignored by not reading what I wrote...

The old covenant law was an agreement between God and Israel [only] which Israel agreed to ... under pain of the curse [and often death] for not keeping an agreement entered voluntarily with God [or else they had to leave Israel if they woulkd not accept it]

It does however state that a man lying with a man as with a woman is an abomoniation to God , it makes no difference for what reason, it being a ceremony does not excuse it , it being two homosexuals in a flat living together granted 'marriage' by authority no recognised by God makes no difference...

The thing is that God doesn't change, it was an abomination then and it still is, the fact that it is an abomination is not conditional upon the old covenant , as it is simply an observation that it is an abomination to God, not a part of the law ...

Equally it matters not that gays can bully foolish [or gay] politicians into making laws that legalise conditions that perdispose to abiminatins to God ... but there are many such laws made by sinners... such is the mistake of choosing sinners to rule us [something God warned men against doing]

Thus you are not being attentive to what has been said and your discussion is largely irrelevant because of that ... Israel's old covenant was broken long ago and all who agreed to it are dead [except some who try to cling to it and affirm it today despite its abject failure to save more than a very few strong men [notably Jesus of course]

So please stop re-hashing other people's words taht do not even apply to the points I raised ... it is hard enough to discuss such a polarised matter without having to answer things twice because you don't bother to read and answer what was written....

 

[MercyBurst]

"what's love gotta do with it"? -Tina Turner
I am addressing your generalization, not the person (DMagoh).

God is Love. So it's got everything to do with it.

Who said anything about praising promiscuity?

irrelevant. Spirits don't have a sex.

YOU were the one that equated a sexual orientation with an addiction, then you use Dmagoh as your "proof".

Whether or not their temptation was indeed an addiction is totally irrelevant to the argument. Nobody can debate that it was and still is a temptation. Nobody.

 

[MercyBurst]

I got this far [above quote] through the OP, hoping that someone was at last going to notice that 'christianity' is divided right down to individuals having different beliefs , and thus that its division shows none of it is of God's truth through Jesus about love [not sin] except that faith of the few united saints of Israel.

The scriptural fact si that Jesus' division of men at his return is on basis of who is a saint by then, and who is still a sinner :-

Matt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
....

20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.​

21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Jesus thus came to make division between the few saints and the many sinners , not between 'gays' and heterosexual ...

A 'gay' person who avoided the abomination of homosexual acts could very easily become a saint , a heterosexual is quite capable of remaining a sinner though following one or other varuiation of perverted [apostate] religion all his life...

The distinction made by God is simple, sure and a SEAL , one either stops sinning or does not, by the time of Jesus' return, else one will die a sinner and not live again until the second resurrection [ a new beginning because sin's wages are paid in full by death - Romans 6:7]

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure,
having this seal,
The Lord knoweth them that are his.
And,
Let every one that nameth the name of Christ
depart from iniquity.​

[ 2 Timothy 2:19 ]​

One has no choice then if one follows Jesus, one must depart from all sin and become a saint , but FEW will do so, few will find this strait narrow way possible​

many will cry out to Jesus "Lord,Lord" when he returns, and he will say he never knew them and is not their lord because they do not obey him and love, but continue to sin ...​

Sinners preach in churches that Jeus came to bring peace now, but he said otherwise, that he will divide even families into saints and sinners... and there will be sinners by the billion left nashing their teeth ...​

Luke 12:51 Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division:​

The irony is of course that Jesus says that the many who go by the broad way are saved much later [after the second resurrection then] -Rev 7:9-10 - by becoming saints in the new earth :-​

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.​

The problem for heterosexuals and homosexuals alike is ceasing from sin either now or in the new earth kingdom come... heterosexuals have the SAME problems with lust as homosexuals... more sympathy and love is required on BOTH sides ... the deabte has done little but polarise the sides and BOTh lost sight of God's truth as the answer... that is a serious error...​

You are preaching to the choir​

I believe the bible, and I believe the bible says gay sex is sin.​

The ultimate proof however, lies in the Holy Spirit that is inside of us. You have lost sight of the most powerful weapon that enables us -- the Holy Spirit which witnesses to every believer.​

Now I ask you, can the same spirit that brings life to one believer bring spiritual death to another believer?​

The answer is absolutely NO. This debate is over on that one fact alone:​

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175​

[4.0] The spirit of same-sex sex kills the spiritual life of some believers, and blesses the spiritual life of others, but this can not come from the spirit of Christ, otherwise Christ Himself is a contradiction.​

BY THEIR FRUITS YE WILL KNOW THEM.​

So go ahead and spam this debate forum all you want to with bible verses ad nauseum. Go ahead and type until your fingers bleed. This debate is won, and so why don't you claim the victory?​

Here:​

[5.0] So in the end:​

- [5.1] it doesn't matter about sin definitions.
- [5.2] it doesn't matter what anyone believes about the gay lifestyle.
- [5.3] it doesn't matter about monogamous loving relationships.
- [5.3b] it doesn't matter that someone feels their gay relationship is without sin, because we are talking about ex-gay Christians.
- [5.4] it doesn't matter about bible translations.
- [5.5] it doesn't matter about who wants to call themselves a brother or sister in Christ.
- [5.5b] it dosn't matter if ex-gay therapy is a total failure and a fraud.
- [5.6] it doesn't even matter about sex at all.​

[5.7] What matters is the body of Christ, and the spiritual damage this gay-affirming doctrine has caused some Christians that struggle with their Christian beliefs. As long as any Christian brother or sister struggles with this issue it doesn't matter about those that don't struggle with it, or those that returned to same-sex sex.​

[5.8] The whole gay-affirming argument can be defeated with OUR Christian love for brothers and sisters in Christ that are being hurt spiritually by this same-sex sex doctrine.​

The gay affirmers can argue all they like. It's done.​

The proof is iron-clad. ​

 

[MercyBurst]

[4.4] The SIN epitaph for "gay Christian" doctrine, ironically, is a lack of compassion for and a total disregard of struggling believers in Christ that are ex-gay.

And it gets worse with outright persecution from our so-called "Christian Brothers and Sisters".

As long as any ex-gays are around, nobody can say homosexuality comes from God.

and that's just tooooo bad.

 

[Floatingaxe]

As I understand Jesus and his teachings, he would support gay people as we are, not denigrate us or try to drive us away.

Jesus would say to you, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ Matthew 7:23

 

[Floatingaxe]

This constant reply I read,

Even if the Bible did condemn it, it would not matter to me, as I do not adhere to the Bible as scripture.

is the most inane response of all!

It's like standing before the judge in court and saying, "Oh judge, it matters not to me whether I ran the red light and killed those people. I don't believe in traffic lights."

He'd throw the book at you. So will God. His big book without your name in it.


He doesn't believe in unbelievers Himself.

 

[stranger]

You are preaching to the choir​

I wasn't preaching at all actually , simply pointing at some scripture.... whether to believe the scripture or not, that is other's own concern, not mine... faith is given by God and not to everyone at the same time, it is God's call, not mine...

I believe the bible, and I believe the bible says gay sex is sin.​

We agree then , on account of scripture, excepting only that I do not think 'homosexual' acts are sex at all .... just rather poor imitations of sexual stimulation indulged in for transient pleasure that are thus just as addictive as sex because they releasse the same hormones as sex... unfortunately the abuse link man tomman, or woman to woman, instead of its natural role of cenmenting a marriage between man and woamn for purpose of cementing a reltionship in the seriously challenging job of bringing up a new life .

The ultimate proof however, lies in the Holy Spirit that is inside of us. You have lost sight of the most powerful weapon that enables us -- the Holy Spirit which witnesses to every believer.

You have the cart before the horse, the Holy spirit of truth is what give faith, causes belief :-

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God:

And the holy spirit is given only to a few in this life [Matt 7 & Rev 7:3-8] and leads men to know all truth [John 16:13] and thus to perfect their love as saints before death in obedience to Jesus comamndto love as their lord, thus they cease to sin , unlie most of us in this life:-

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

Thus what you are more likely talking about is the knowledge of good and evil , the conscience ... which we may in part listen to in part deny and ignore, as sinners... thus only teh conscience of saints is wholly clear, and theya re few in this life, about one in a million according to Jesus' own figure [Rev 7:3-4] and all descendants of tribal Israel according to Jesus ...​

Now I ask you, can the same spirit that brings life to one believer bring spiritual death to another believer?

There si no such thing as 'spiritual death' , only the body is subject to death , the spirit always returns to God because it is His, he gave it :-

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

​

The answer is absolutely NO. This debate is over on that one fact alone:​

http://foru.ms/showpost.php?p=40384665&postcount=175​

Well I think I understand your enthusiasm, zeal even, but Idoubt that the debate is over yet

[4.0] The spirit of same-sex sex kills the spiritual life of some believers, and blesses the spiritual life of others, but this can not come from the spirit of Christ, otherwise Christ Himself is a contradiction.

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?​

 

[stranger]

[4.4] The SIN epitaph for "gay Christian" doctrine, ironically, is a lack of compassion for and a total disregard of struggling believers in Christ that are ex-gay.

And it gets worse with outright persecution from our so-called "Christian Brothers and Sisters".

As long as any ex-gays are around, nobody can say homosexuality comes from God.

and that's just tooooo bad.

According to Psychology , more people go through a period of homosexual feelings in their life than do not, uually in their teens ... so the persecution of 'gays' may only reflect the desperate attempt of many to hide [even from themselves] their feelings of the past ...

This sadly never becomes public info because it is not considered politic to eduacte people about such matters ... much as this site does not consider it politic to face the fact that most christians are sinners, not the saints who follow Jesus , and that Jesus will not take any who are sinners still by his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sooner or later the paradox that is every human being without all truth of God [almost all] emerges ... we are the only craeture that normally spends its whole life in denial...

 

[MercyBurst]

I wasn't preaching at all actually , simply pointing at some scripture.... whether to believe the scripture or not, that is other's own concern, not mine... faith is given by God and not to everyone at the same time, it is God's call, not mine...

indeed

We agree then , on account of scripture, excepting only that I do not think 'homosexual' acts are sex at all .... just rather poor imitations of sexual stimulation indulged in for transient pleasure that are thus just as addictive as sex because they releasse the same hormones as sex... unfortunately the abuse link man tomman, or woman to woman, instead of its natural role of cenmenting a marriage between man and woamn for purpose of cementing a reltionship in the seriously challenging job of bringing up a new life .

just a rant. nothing here to debate.

You have the cart before the horse, the Holy spirit of truth is what give faith, causes belief :

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God:

And the holy spirit is given only to a few in this life [Matt 7 & Rev 7:3-8] and leads men to know all truth [John 16:13] and thus to perfect their love as saints before death in obedience to Jesus comamndto love as their lord, thus they cease to sin , unlie most of us in this life:-​

2 Timothy 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. ​

ok, so what?​

Thus what you are more likely talking about is the knowledge of good and evil , the conscience ... which we may in part listen to in part deny and ignore, as sinners... thus only teh conscience of saints is wholly clear, and theya re few in this life, about one in a million according to Jesus' own figure [Rev 7:3-4] and all descendants of tribal Israel according to Jesus ...

ok so what?​

There si no such thing as 'spiritual death' , only the body is subject to death , the spirit always returns to God because it is His, he gave it :-

If there is no spiritual death then there is no spiritual life as well, and the bible is a lie.​

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;​

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord​

Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death​

Ecclesiastes 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.​

so what's the point?

Well I think I understand your enthusiasm, zeal even, but Idoubt that the debate is over yet

I think your whole post is a bunch of incoherent nonsense, except for the scriptures.

Lamentations 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?

Evil for the non-believers, but good for the believers.
​

 

[davedjy]

It does however state that a man lying with a man as with a woman is an abomoniation to God , it makes no difference for what reason, it being a ceremony does not excuse it , it being two homosexuals in a flat living together granted 'marriage' by authority no recognised by God makes no difference...

You clearly did not read what I wrote, then. As stated, abomination = ceremonial/ritual impurity. The ritual was a pagan sex practice mixed with idolatry. You cannot prove that homosexuality is not blessed by God by text being omitted.

The thing is that God doesn't change, it was an abomination then and it still is, the fact that it is an abomination is not conditional upon the old covenant , as it is simply an observation that it is an abomination to God, not a part of the law ...

You will have to prove that a ceremonial/impurity violation (tow'evah) applies today, which you have failed to demonstrate on any level.

Equally it matters not that gays can bully foolish [or gay] politicians into making laws that legalise conditions that perdispose to abiminatins to God ... but there are many such laws made by sinners... such is the mistake of choosing sinners to rule us [something God warned men against doing]

This point seems to be a red herring than anything else.

Thus you are not being attentive to what has been said and your discussion is largely irrelevant because of that ... Israel's old covenant was broken long ago and all who agreed to it are dead [except some who try to cling to it and affirm it today despite its abject failure to save more than a very few strong men [notably Jesus of course]

As I stated, I don't believe this law has anything to do with the sex isolated, so who is really not listening or being attentive?

So please stop re-hashing other people's words taht do not even apply to the points I raised ... it is hard enough to discuss such a polarised matter without having to answer things twice because you don't bother to read and answer what was written....

Rehashing what?!? the only thing I rehashed were the things in Leviticus-the purple text I put in. You clearly did not read what I posted, or you are ignoring text. You did not address the differences in what the Hebrew words mean, and what context they were used in. As stated, the word "zimmah" referring to a sexual immorality sin...which wasn't used, and a ceremonial impurity pagan practice.

 

[stranger]

He doesn't believe in unbelievers Himself.

Hmmm.... seruious mistake my friend.... all believers are saints , and all believers were unbelieving sinners beforehand [except Jesus]

There is plenty of time yet for unbelievers to become believers and sinners who think they believe in Jesus t find out that sin precludes them being taken by him when he returns :-

Romans 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers’ sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
30 For as ye in times past have not believed God, yet have now obtained mercy through their unbelief:
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.

 

[davedjy]

Jesus would say to you, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’ Matthew 7:23

Yet, you don't have a single way to directly relate that to homosexuality.

 

[MercyBurst]

According to Psychology , more people go through a period of homosexual feelings in their life than do not, uually in their teens ... so the persecution of 'gays' may only reflect the desperate attempt of many to hide [even from themselves] their feelings of the past ...

This sadly never becomes public info because it is not considered politic to eduacte people about such matters ... much as this site does not consider it politic to face the fact that most christians are sinners, not the saints who follow Jesus , and that Jesus will not take any who are sinners still by his return :-

Matthew 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Sooner or later the paradox that is every human being without all truth of God [almost all] emerges ... we are the only craeture that normally spends its whole life in denial...

Just a bunch of gobbly-d-goop.

Can you talk about the Holy Spirit in you?

 

[stranger]

If there is no spiritual death then there is no spiritual life as well, and the bible is a lie.

Nay my friend, the life of the spirit is simply very different than life in the body

1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

Eph 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

As sinners all are committed to death as wages of sin , 'dead in sin'... unless one is one of the few [Matt 7] baptised of the spirit by grace in this life, or one of the many baptised when all flesh is baptised [Joel 2:28] to know all truth of Gos [John 16:13]
​

http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B45C006.htm#V23

Romans 6:23For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord

The wages of sin is death simply because that is the only way to be freed of sin other than grace offered to the few in this life :-

Romans 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

All men are resurrected, just saints at the first resurrection, unjust sinners at the second resurrection :-

Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

Many unjust, freed from sin by death live righteously as saints in the new earth , despite that they went by the broad way to death for ain in this world , and are saved , according to Jesus himself - Rev 7:9-10:-

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Death and hell yield up all the dead, none are left dead:-

Revelation 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Men that are righteous in teh new earth, living as saints there, are thus saved at judgment day, Jesus says uncountably many [Rev 7:9-10] of all nations and beliefs , who were sinners all this life​

http://www.htmlbible.com/kjv30/B66C021.htm#V8

Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death

A second mortal death for those wh need freeing from sin yet again because of sin in the new earth...