"One God in three Persons" is heresy?? since when?

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Who was incarnate? The one being? The Father and the Holy Spirit??

Yes.

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

 

[BobRyan]

I've read the article by (Adventist professor) Jerry Moon now: https://digitalcommons.andrews.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1188&context=jats

Moon says this at your link when discussing the extreme fringe view of anti-trinitarianism

What is now debated by some is Gane’s second conclusion that Ellen G. White, Adventist co-founder and prophetic voice, was “a trinitarian monotheist.”5 The view that Ellen White was a trinitarian has recently come under attack from a few writers who advocate a return to the semi-Arian position of some early Adventist leaders.

So he is correct that they are a small fringe element.

While not agreed on all details, these new antitrinitarians generally seem to believe:
(1) that Ellen White agreed with every aspect of the pioneers’ antitrinitarian view of God;
(2) that Ellen White’s view never changed (she was antitrinitarian at the beginning and always remained so)6; therefore,
(3) her later writ-ings that seem to express a trinitarian view are not to be taken at face value: they are either “unclear” statements to be read through the lens of her earlier writings, or they are inauthentic statements produced not by her, but by others who tampered with her writings.
7 The new antitrini-tarians further reason
(4) that if the current Adventist doctrine of the Trinity is the same doctrine that early Adventists, including Ellen White, rejected, then the current Adventist doctrine of the Trinity is a heresy based on extrabiblical tradition, hence an apostasy from the church’s bib-lical foundations.

So having listed the fringe element's wild claims (none of which are in the Catholic Harold article) ... he says this

8 These are serious charges indeed—if they could be..substantiated. But I argue that every premise of this syllogism is false, though some of them may appear plausible at first glance.

I prefer the actual direct quotes of the denomination for denomination statements, and of Ellen White for getting her POV.

 

[BobRyan]

So when the Catholic Herald accuses Ellen White of rejecting the Trinity as Catholics understand it, it is quite right.

"Trinity as the Catholics understand it" would have been a helpful insert in that article -- I have seen some "one being" and "God the Father incarnated" language in this thread that I would not agree with either. I believe in "One GOD Duet 6:4 in THREE persons Matthew 28:19" and so did Ellen White.

When modern SDAs point to her later writings and say that they are trinitarian, they may also be right, at least in some sense.

Indeed- your own link to Moon's article shows that he thought the fringe anti-trinitarian writers were wrong about their wild accusations against Ellen White. She started off as a trinitarian in the united Methodist church and never changed from that POV.

Without explicit, detailed SDA creeds, it's hard to be certain of the extent of the disagreement (the Orthodox also disagree with Catholics on the Creed,

Agreed - the SDA church has insisted on "no creed but the Bible" - while at the same time publishing its "Fundamental beliefs" statements starting in 1872, which can be used as a reference for what they consider to be their defining doctrines.

 

[Jipsah]

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

I'll toss that question right back at you, Who is He praying to? One of the other dudes who is God?

 

[BobRyan]

BobRyan said: ↑
Who was incarnate? The one being? The Father and the Holy Spirit??

Yes.

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

John 17
He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Disciples in the World
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.


================================================
Which being is speaking here - and to whom in your POV?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

I'll toss that question right back at you, Who is He praying to? One of the other dudes who is God?

hmmm.... let's see... "ONE God (Deut 6:4) in THREE persons (Matt 28:19)" - so then that's going to have to be His Father -- and not Himself... that He prays to in John 17 and talks about the "glory he had WITH" the Father BEFORE the World Was.

It is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .. it is God the Son incarnate as Jesus Christ who is praying in John 17 --- "TO" the Father.

 

[eternomade]

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

As far as I'm aware, the Bible does not say the Father was incarnate, or the Son was incarnate. You keep using the word "person"(like the Athanasian Creed) and based off the definition, I would not use that. The Athanasian creed was originally written in Latin and uses the word "persona", or "prosopo" in Greek.

If we want to stick to biblical words to describe who was incarnate, I would use the "Word"(John 1) or "The Living God"(1 Timothy 3:15).

To answer your question about who Jesus was praying to, we would have to agree on the hypostatic union. I believe God has 1 nature. When The Word became flesh, The Word assumed a human nature as well as already having a divine nature, in one person, Jesus. I would argue that God does not pray, so I understand that the human nature of Jesus was praying to the Divine nature. If there is more than 1 divine nature of God, then I believe that would be called polytheism. If one cannot recognize the distinctions between Father, Son and Holy Spirit, that would be modalism.

 

[BobRyan]

As far as I'm aware, the Bible does not say the Father was incarnate, or the Son was incarnate. You keep using the word "person"(like the Athanasian Creed) and based off the definition, I would not use that. The Athanasian creed was originally written in Latin and uses the word "persona", or "prosopo" in Greek.

If we want to stick to biblical words to describe who was incarnate, I would use the "Word"(John 1) or "The Living God"(1 Timothy 3:15). .

Word "became flesh" it is the "Became flesh" term that is being singled out in the word "incarnate" and Phil 2 does a pretty good job of pointing out that this is unique to the Son.

Phil 2
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. 8 Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross. 9 For this reason also, God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

[BobRyan]

To answer your question about who Jesus was praying to, we would have to agree on the hypostatic union. .

"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three persons" Matthew 28:19 each of those persons having a name... resolves the question about John 17 "who is Jesus praying to" without much difficulty.

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Clearly the 3 persons aspect shows up in that prayer.

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

John 17
He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Disciples in the World
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.


================================================
Which being is speaking here - and to whom in your POV?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

hmmm.... let's see... "ONE God (Deut 6:4) in THREE persons (Matt 28:19)" - so then that's going to have to be His Father -- and not Himself... that He prays to in John 17 and talks about the "glory he had WITH" the Father BEFORE the World Was.

It is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .. it is God the Son incarnate as Jesus Christ who is praying in John 17 --- "TO" the Father.

John writes in such a way that he makes it clear to the reader that it is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .

 

[Jipsah]

John writes in such a way that he makes it clear to the reader that it is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .

So you agree with the J-Dubs that our Lord is a god?

 

[BobRyan]

So you agree with the J-Dubs that our Lord is a god?

One God Deut 6:4 in Three Persons Matthew 28:19 -- we call it the Triune Godhead -- and we don't think Jesus is "praying to Himself" in John 17. You might have seen me mention that in my prior posts.


John 17 makes my point without the "a god" idea you suggest.
5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I believe in the trinity, as three manifestations of God, not necessarily three persons. The reason I say this is that the Holy Spirit as an entity consists of 7 individual spirits. To say the Holy Spirit is a single personality in that case is not correct.

The Seven Spirits of God used to explain the Trinity

The following are highlights taken from the above website.

Basically I will attempt to prove that the Holy Spirit, God's Spiritual consistency, is seven individual members or divine beings making up what could be called the Godhead, and is found depicted in both the Torah, then in the New Testiment. First here are some examples of the number seven in the bible.

• Seven literal days (morning and evening) of creation in Genisis
• Priests had to dip their finger seven times in the blood, and sprinkle it before the sanctuary, to attone for sin.
• Seven candles in the temple (latter) called by an angel the LORD of the whole earth, in Zechariah.
• And seven priests shall bear seven trumpets of rams' horns before the ark: and the seventh day you shall compass the city seven times, and the priests shall blow the trumpets. Jos 6:4
• Dip seven times in the Jordan river to be healed the prophet told Namman the Syrian and he was healed
• Seven Churches in Revelation in Christianity
• Seven Eyes of the Lamb in Revelation in Christianity
• Church father Joseph Matyr says that the prophets believed that God was a seven fold Spirit
• The Torah said, and you shall keep it a feast unto the LORD seven days in the year. It shall be a statute for ever in your generations: you shall celebrate it in the seventh month. Leviticus 26:24
• Then Peter came up and asked him, "Lord, how many times may my brother sin against me and I have to forgive him? Seven times?" Jesus said to him, "I tell you, not just seven times, but seventy-seven times! Mat 18:21 - 22
• Then will I also walk contrary unto you, and will punish you yet seven times for your sins. Leviticus 4:6

CHURCH FATHERS
The earliest Church Father and writer apart from the apostles was Justin Martyr, he was a philosopher who turned to Christ, living approximately 60 years after the apostles states - "These things, I think, Plato having learned from the prophets regarding the Holy Ghost, he has manifestly transferred to what he calls virtue. For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues;"

SCRIPTURE
So Justin Martyr said that the prophets believed that God was a seven fold Spirit. So this should be able to be found in scripture. Zechariah 4 and onwards shows us a physical representation of God. He is represented as 7 golden lamps stands, the lamp is called the the LORD of the whole earth. On either side of the lamp are the two anointed ones, or Cheriabim, which mirror those found on the ark of the presence (on either side of the mercy seat) in the temple which was built by Israel according to the pattern God delivered to Mosus on the mount. The lamps are said to be the seven spirits of God which are also called the eyes of the LORD. This same lamp was found also in the temple of the Lord built by Mosus in the desert.

And the angel that talked with me came again to me, and waked me, I was awake. And he said to me, What do you see? And I said to him, I see, a candlestick made entirely of gold, with a bowl on the top of it, and it has seven lamps; there are also seven pipes to each of the lamps, which seem to be on the top of it; and two olive trees beside it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and on other side to the left.

A little while latter

The angel said "for these seven shall rejoice, and shall see the plum line in the hand of Zerubbabel; these are the eyes of the LORD, which run this way and that way through out the whole earth". Then I answered, and said to him, "What are the two olive-trees on the right side of the candlestick and also over there on the left of it? Again I asked the second time, and said to him, "What are these two olive-branches, which are beside the two golden spouts, that empty the golden oil out of themselves?" And he answered me and said, "Don't you know what they are?" And I said, "No, my lord". Then said he, "These are the two powerful anointed ones (cherubim), that stand by the LORD of the whole earth. Zec 4:1 - 14

JESUS AN THE SEVEN SPIRITS OF GOD
We have just seen how God is divided into seven distinct spirits (personalities), called the eyes of the Lord. Now if we go to revelation and look it up, we see Jesus has the same eyes: Shows us a picture of a lamb that has been slain (or Jesus) Jesus has the same seven eyes. He has the same eyes as the Father. - Revelation 5:6

This is a vision or a picture representing something, Jesus, it is used to show us who God is, he does not have seven eyes, only two, but this tells us his make up his chemistry if you will.

And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures , and in the midst of the leaders, a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, having seven horns, and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent forth into all the earth. -Rev 5:6

This is important because both the Father and the Son have the One and the same (eyes) or Spirit. Returning to the verse: Col 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the God head lives in bodily form. We see that the seven spirits of God live as a part of Christ, so the seven spirits of God are the godhead; additionally because God says creation, and other Miraculous examples, e.g. Namman the Syrian, reveals his person we can know that God is a seven fold spirit.

 

[Jipsah]

One God Deut 6:4 in Three Persons Matthew 28:19 -- we call it the Triune Godhead -- and we don't think Jesus is "praying to Himself" in John 17. You might have seen me mention that in my prior posts.

Yeah, the "Three Dudes" version of the Trinity. Which isn't what the Church believes, to wit:

Just as Christian truth compels us
to confess each person individually
as both God and Lord,
so catholic religion forbids us
to say that there are three gods or lords.

If you disagree, then your beliefs are heterodox.

 

[BobRyan]

To answer your question about who Jesus was praying to, we would have to agree on the hypostatic union. .

"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three persons" Matthew 28:19 each of those persons having a name... resolves the question about John 17 "who is Jesus praying to" without much difficulty.

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Clearly the 3 persons aspect shows up in that prayer.

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

John 17
He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Disciples in the World
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.


================================================
Which being is speaking here - and to whom in your POV?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

hmmm.... let's see... "ONE God (Deut 6:4) in THREE persons (Matt 28:19)" - so then that's going to have to be His Father -- and not Himself... that He prays to in John 17 and talks about the "glory he had WITH" the Father BEFORE the World Was.

It is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .. it is God the Son incarnate as Jesus Christ who is praying in John 17 --- "TO" the Father.

John writes in such a way that he makes it clear to the reader that it is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .

Yeah, the "Three Dudes" version of the Trinity. .

sadly that not only does not answer the point in John 17 --- it also proves nothing.

For the rest of us -- hmm the song "Holy Holy Holy"

"Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty. God in three persons, blessed Trinity."

Which isn't what the Church believes, .

Well we clearly don't attend the same church.

I believe in the trinity, as three manifestations of God, not necessarily three persons.

So in your view Jesus is talking to "Himself" in John 17?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

 

[Abi Salomao]

"One God" Deut 6:4

May you clarify please. Are you saying that Deuteronomy 6:4 says "One God"? If so, can you show where?

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deu 6:4 שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

Deu 6:4 sh'ma yis'räël y'hwäh élohëynû y'hwäh echäd

"one [echäd] LORD [JEHOVAH]" is not the same as saying "One God" (as in singular), since the text (Hebrew) clearly shows plurality of "el" (God), saying "élohëynû" [according to BDB OTH-EL. "Plural of H0433"], yet there is a singular name or character or way of living. The words "God" and "Godhead" and "JEHOVAH", are not directly interchangable.

The text could be re-written in English as:

Hear (with understanding, to obey and do not doubt otherwise), O Israel (the peoples): JEHOVAH (the name or character or the way of living of Eternal Life), the Three (plurality is greater here than the mere dual plural of Hebrew) Persons which are all by eternal nature Deity that share this name JEHOVAH are unified in intent and purpose. In other words, there is never disagreement amongst these Persons in the family JEHOVAH, and in that sense only can it be said "One (unified together in intent and purpose not in person) God", just as the Bible is "One (a unified in thought) Book".

This is where John in his epistle states, "these three are one (unified in intent and purpose, yet not in persons)", which John defined in parallel as "these three agree in one", like as unto a trio in music, which when sung together harmoniously (and without disagreement) in their parts, form a unified chord. Yet the 'chord' is not the individual note. For instance, a chord of A-sharp, A, and A-flat are all of the family "A", yet are distinct in their individual sounds.

The NT rendition of this text, says:

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This text also does not use the phrase "One God". The koine Greek of 'kurios' refers back to JEHOVAH. The word "God" refers back to the plurality, since the one speaking is a Jew, Jesus, who understood that JEHOVAH Elohiym act together (The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) without dissent, as opposed to the plurality of the false gods (devils) who war with one another (like Zeus warring with Hera, or Cronos, etc).

 

[Jipsah]

Well we clearly don't attend the same church.

The Catholics making that same observation is what inspired this thread, isn't it?

And I think the answer is obvious - that SDAs don't mean the same thing by "trinity" that confessing churches do, as you have just observed.

So in your view Jesus is talking to "Himself" in John 17?

In your view is He speaking to one of the other folks who are members of the Trinity?

 

[BobRyan]

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

NKJV - 4 “Hear, O Israel: The LORD(YHWH) our God, the LORD (YHWH) is one!

Not "one being" but One God... One YHWH

May you clarify please. Are you saying that Deuteronomy 6:4 says "One God"? If so, can you show where?

Deu 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

Deu 6:4 שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

Deu 6:4 sh'ma yis'räël y'hwäh élohëynû y'hwäh echäd

"one [echäd] LORD [JEHOVAH]" is not the same as saying "One God" (as in singular), since the text (Hebrew) clearly shows plurality of "el" (God), saying "élohëynû" [according to BDB OTH-EL. "Plural of H0433"], yet there is a singular name or character or way of living. The words "God" and "Godhead" and "JEHOVAH", are not directly interchangable.

The text could be re-written in English as:

Hear (with understanding, to obey and do not doubt otherwise), O Israel (the peoples): JEHOVAH (the name or character or the way of living of Eternal Life), the Three (plurality is greater here than the mere dual plural of Hebrew) Persons which are all by eternal nature Deity that share this name JEHOVAH are unified in intent and purpose. In other words, there is never disagreement amongst these Persons in the family JEHOVAH, and in that sense only can it be said "One (unified together in intent and purpose not in person) God", just as the Bible is "One (a unified in thought) Book".

Ok - but I don't see a distinction there with a difference.

One God - monotheism rather than polytheism.

In John 17 Jesus makes the same point.
9 “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. 10 And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me, that they may be one as We are.

This is where John in his epistle states, "these three are one (unified in intent and purpose, yet not in persons)", which John defined in parallel as "these three agree in one", like as unto a trio in music, which when sung together harmoniously (and without disagreement) in their parts, form a unified chord. Yet the 'chord' is not the individual note. For instance, a chord of A-sharp, A, and A-flat are all of the family "A", yet are distinct in their individual sounds.

True in a sense but Jesus - the second person of the Godhead is not 1/3 of a God. He is fully God.

The NT rendition of this text, says:

Mar 12:29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

This text also does not use the phrase "One God". The koine Greek of 'kurios' refers back to JEHOVAH. The word "God" refers back to the plurality, since the one speaking is a Jew, Jesus, who understood that JEHOVAH Elohiym act together (The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost) without dissent, as opposed to the plurality of the false gods (devils) who war with one another (like Zeus warring with Hera, or Cronos, etc).

Agreed - my focus on YHWH as the "one God" is that this is monotheism.

 

[BobRyan]

To answer your question about who Jesus was praying to, we would have to agree on the hypostatic union. .

"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three persons" Matthew 28:19 each of those persons having a name... resolves the question about John 17 "who is Jesus praying to" without much difficulty.

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Clearly the 3 persons aspect shows up in that prayer.

If God the Father is the one incarnate in human form in John 17 -- who is he praying to ???

John 17
He said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify Your Son, that the Son may glorify You, 2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life. 3 This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. 4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

6 “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. 7 Now they have come to know that everything You have given Me is from You; 8 for the words which You gave Me I have given to them; and they received them and truly understood that I came forth from You, and they believed that You sent Me. 9 I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours; 10 and all things that are Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine; and I have been glorified in them. 11 I am no longer in the world; and yet they themselves are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep them in Your name, the name which You have given Me, that they may be one even as We are. 12 While I was with them, I was keeping them in Your name which You have given Me; and I guarded them and not one of them perished but the son of perdition, so that the Scripture would be fulfilled.

The Disciples in the World
13 But now I come to You; and these things I speak in the world so that they may have My joy made full in themselves. 14 I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 15 I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.


================================================
Which being is speaking here - and to whom in your POV?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

hmmm.... let's see... "ONE God (Deut 6:4) in THREE persons (Matt 28:19)" - so then that's going to have to be His Father -- and not Himself... that He prays to in John 17 and talks about the "glory he had WITH" the Father BEFORE the World Was.

It is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .. it is God the Son incarnate as Jesus Christ who is praying in John 17 --- "TO" the Father.

John writes in such a way that he makes it clear to the reader that it is not the Father standing there praying to Himself .

Yeah, the "Three Dudes" version of the Trinity. .

sadly that not only does not answer the point in John 17 --- it also proves nothing.

For the rest of us -- hmm the song "Holy Holy Holy"

"Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty. God in three persons, blessed Trinity."

Which isn't what the Church believes, .

Well we clearly don't attend the same church.

I believe in the trinity, as three manifestations of God, not necessarily three persons.

So in your view Jesus is talking to "Himself" in John 17?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

The Catholics making that same observation is what inspired this thread, isn't it?

No - this thread was initially on the point that so many Christian denominations agree with me as we all enjoy singing that song "Holy Holy Holy... Lord God Almighty... God in three persons blessed trinity".

In your view is He speaking to one of the other folks who are members of the Trinity?

In three PERSONS... so He is speaking to the first PERSON of the Godhead -- God the Father.. rather than "talking to Himself" or Praying to Himself

John 17?
5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Easy enough for many of us to see ... but as you point out the Orthodox and the Catholics might struggle with "Christ not praying to Himself" in John 17... and God the Father NOT incarnate along with God the Son ... since they are different persons... and not merely "the same being".

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus was God the Son even before his incarnation? So the begetting of Jesus in Hebrews 1:5 does not refer to his human nature, but to his divine nature that happened before his incartnation? That means you believe that God has begotten another God, right?

nope. it means that God knows the future like you and I know the past.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

So in your view Jesus is talking to "Himself" in John 17?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

No. I don't deny that God is made up of individual personalities, that can communicate one to another. The point I am making, is that the view that God is three, individual personalities, as we as humans would describe it, is not 100% correct either.

I was stressing the point that the Holy Spirit is actually 7 individual personalities, known in the bible as the "Seven Spirits of God" Rev 5:6 , or the "eyes of the LORD" Zec 4:10.

God's consistency is not as simple as three people. The bible makes it simple for us to understand God. In the OT God was seen as one, so as not to confuse Him with the myriad of other gods of the time. When Jesus came, God had revealed Himself in the person of Jesus, and the infilling of the Holy Spirit. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are both to us God. Because God has now revealed Himself through Jesus, who was both God and "with God" in the beginning. Now God has shown there are three.

1Jn 5:7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

As for how the three, are interrelated, is a complex question. We see both the Lamb (Jesus) Rev 5:6, and God Zec 4:1 - 14, depicted has having the Seven Spirits of God, as their eyes. So we see a oneness, in the Spirit connecting them.

Jesus also stated:

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

We as believers now have the privilege of having the Holy Spirit. So we have entered a oneness with God. We do not become God. But if we are led by Him we become like Him.

2Co 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

I believe both God the father, and the Son, have the Holy Spirit, yet in a deeper sense than we do. They are so much one, so interconnected in will, that they do not act independently in their presentation to us. They would still have some independence, but their wills are unified.

 

[BobRyan]

For the rest of us -- hmm the song "Holy Holy Holy"

"Holy, holy, holy, merciful and mighty. God in three persons, blessed Trinity."

Which isn't what the Church believes, .

Well we clearly don't attend the same church.

I believe in the trinity, as three manifestations of God, not necessarily three persons.

So in your view Jesus is talking to "Himself" in John 17?

5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

No. I don't deny that God is made up of individual personalities, that can communicate one to another. The point I am making, is that the view that God is three, individual personalities, as we as humans would describe it, is not 100% correct either.

"One God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matthew 28:19 such that in John 17 - Jesus is not "praying to Himself"

John 17
5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

And such that the one who is "incarnate" as the Christ -- is not God the Father... but IS God the Son

Is a concept of "Three Persons" and "One God" where the term "God" is infinite and not fully defined by human terms and language.

I was stressing the point that the Holy Spirit is actually 7 individual personalities

In that case - 6 of which would be missing in Matthew 28:19.. I think that is beyond the scope of this thread - at least to a point.

You never see one of the Holy Spirit "personalities" asking another Holy Spirit "personality" to grant him his request... for example.

And I don't know "if" the seven spirits are in fact just a reference to the Holy Spirit or not.. but for the sake of argument let's suppose they are ... does it indicate "seven roles" or "seven functions" or "seven domains" for the Holy Spirit... or is it as you say "seven persons/personalities"? And who is going to have the Holy Spirit subjected to a lab/test/study to even know? My assumption is that He is wayy too infinitely complex to get into those details.

God. In the OT God was seen as one, so as not to confuse Him with the myriad of other gods

I agree that monotheism is opposing the many-gods-with-their-own-agendas story telling that you see in greek mythology and many others before that.