"One God in three Persons" is heresy?? since when?

[BobRyan]

As the New Testament uses that passage, the "today" is the day Christ rose from the dead. But that isn't the day He became the only-begotten Son, He has always been the eternal Son of the Father, begotten before all ages.

slain from the foundation of the world Rev 1

But not killed before the foundation of the world - rather foreknown to be the Messiah slain for the sins of the world.

 

[BobRyan]

Context: The assumption for this thread is that everyone agrees that the doctrine of the Trinity is correct:

So then - what does the "Catholic Herald" mean when it uses the term "trinity"?? (if someone knows ... please share with us)

Specifically on this thread --- What do you mean by that term "Trinity" when you use it?
===============================

In the article below it appears that at least the "Catholic Herald" does not accept the One God (Deut 6:4) in three persons (Matthew 28:19) definition.

Jan 9.. 2020 "Heretic of the week" article at Catholic Herald
Appears to object to the following:
"three separate Divine Persons rather than the orthodox doctrine of Trinity;"
Heretic of the week: Ellen G White - Catholic Herald

How about you? Do you accept the "three persons" aspect of the term "Trinity" or do you use/believe/accept something else as the correct definition for the term "Trinity"?

==========================

We believe in one living and true God who is the Creator of heaven and earth; who is eternal, almighty, unchangeable, infinitely powerful, wise, just and holy.

We believe that the one God eternally exists in three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit; and that these three are one God, co-equal and co-eternal, having precisely the same nature and attributes Matthew 3:16, 17; Matthew 28:19, 20; Mark 12:29; John 1:14; Acts 5:3, 4; II Corinthians 13:14.

Your post was confusing because people in general have used "Trinity" to mean 3 persons in one Godhead.

As I point out in the title "God in three persons" -- the way we find it in the song "Holy Holy Holy"

What part of that "one God" Deut 6:4 in "Three Persons" Matt 28:19 statement in the OP is confusing much less 'heresy'??

The real problem of things comes from talking about Ellen White. She was advocating for something called Unitarianism according to the old definition of that terms, which would be called Arianism according to Early Church definitions. And Arianism is a bit different than most definitions of Trinitarianism.

none of that appears at the link for the "Catholic Herald"
And none of it appears in Ellen White's material

I am simply asking if people here accept or reject the "One God in three persons" statement for Trinity or if that sounds to them like heresy.

 

[BobRyan]

My suspicion is the phrasing "separate Persons". The Trinity is not three separate Persons, but three distinct Persons. The Persons are not separate

Distinctly Separate as in the John 14 and John 17 statements of Christ regarding co-location and locality in general??

But to be fair to Ellen White - I did do a search on "separate persons" and got no hits at all. So then you are right that the Catholic Herald uses the term.. who else??

 

[DebbieJ]

I adhere to the trinity. However, sometimes it can confuse new Christians about the Lord. An easy understanding of this is to look at nature. For it is written:

"Romans 1:20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:"
__

To understand the Lord, we must look at nature itself. Since the Lord is the Father of lights, let us look at light.

White light is one color. We all perceive it with our eyes as one color, right? That's the evidence. There are no other White color besides White color.

However, pure white color consists of three primary colors - Red, Green, and Blue. White color cannot exist without these three colors. Try removing just one primary color, the white is gone.

So, every time you see white light shining on your face, know that it's not one color, it's three colors shining simultaneously on your face to produce one color - white.

1) White consists of three primary colors - Red, Green, and Blue.

2) The Lord (White) consists of three persons - The Father (Red), The Son (Green), and the Holy Spirit (Blue).

3) White is one color, not three colors. The Lord is one person, not three persons.

4) White consists of three colors. The Lord consists of three persons.

The Lord is one person, one being, the "I AM" singular, coexisting simultaneously as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

This is like Back to the Future where Marty met his younger self. Although, we see two Marty's communicating with each other, we know that they are only one person.

Actually, the laws of physics allow for time travel. If you could travel to the past to meet your younger self, and you took your younger self to the past again, you would see the three of yourself. You could talk to each like different people, but you know it's only you conversing with each other on different time lines -- the past you, the present you, and the future you.

These three "yous" are one -- "YOU".

 

[BobRyan]

Meanwhile "One God in Three Persons" option in the survey gets the majority of votes here.

 

[BobRyan]

The Lord is one person, one being, the "I AM" singular, coexisting simultaneously as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You could go there in spite of what we find in the quotes below - but not because of these following quotes... agreed?

Jesus said - they are 3 distinct persons

John 14
25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 17
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

He does not convey the meaning that He is "Talking to Himself"

 

[Blade]

I think we make things way to hard. Or much harder then it really is.. ooh means the same.

Well I look at who am I? Man..and He is ? God. Do I really need to keep typing? The word ONE GOD! Amen He is. And yet three amen He is. Hes God! God has always been and man knows? Pass.

He asked..are you for us or them? Neither. Take off your shoes for this ground is holy. And he worshiped Him. And we know you never worship angels. There are more in the word. And we know no one has seen GOD and lived (on the earth). So.. gee who did he/they worship? God.

Its why Jesus said..if you seen me..you have seen the Father. Why? They are one. I mean ONE! Yet three. I LOVE THIS! If God talks.. who is talking to you? The sweet sweet holy Spirit that never speaks of Him self. And where does all this POWER come from? Holy Spirit. GOD!

 

[Pavel Mosko]

none of that appears at the link for the "Catholic Herald"
And none of it appears in Ellen White's material

I am simply asking if people here accept or reject the "One God in three persons" statement for Trinity or if that sounds to them like heresy.

Well the Herald article mentioned Unitarianism at the start that got me on that tangent. Part of the problem, the SDA's in their earlier history were anti-Trinitarian, but they changed their doctrine later on.

Up to the 1890s most Seventh-day Adventists were anti-Trinitarian. They viewed God the Father as God in every way, the Son as divine but begotten and having a beginning, and the Holy Spirit reduced to merely a manifestation of either the Father or the Son. This came to a head in the important 1888 Conference with the preaching of A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner who brought a focus of the biblical doctrine of the Godhead in part because of the emphasis on Jesus, and how the law and righteousness by faith come together.[51][52]

Seventh-day Adventist theology - Wikipedia.


But yes the basic formula of 3 persons in one God / Godhead is the basic Trinitarian formula in everyday language.

 

[Radagast]

Context: The assumption for this thread is that everyone agrees that the doctrine of the Trinity is correct:

So then - what does the "Catholic Herald" mean when it uses the term "trinity"?? (if someone knows ... please share with us)

Specifically on this thread --- What do you mean by that term "Trinity" when you use it?
===============================

In the article below it appears that at least the "Catholic Herald" does not accept the One God (Deut 6:4) in three persons (Matthew 28:19) definition.

Jan 9.. 2020 "Heretic of the week" article at Catholic Herald
Appears to object to the following:
"three separate Divine Persons rather than the orthodox doctrine of Trinity;"
Heretic of the week: Ellen G White - Catholic Herald

I consider the O.P. to be rather dishonest, because the Catholic Herald is criticising "three separate Divine Persons" (Tritheism), but that's not the wording in the poll.

As to whether it's accurate for the Catholic Herald to call Ellen G. White's doctrine of the "Heavenly Trio" Tritheism, I haven't read her work, so I can't comment (the question seems to be a complex one). Her husband, James White, was explicitly anti-Trinitarian, though, as were many early SDAs.

Modern SDAs seem mostly to be Trinitarian, however (at least the ones on CF).

 

[Radagast]

1) White consists of three primary colors - Red, Green, and Blue.

2) The Lord (White) consists of three persons - The Father (Red), The Son (Green), and the Holy Spirit (Blue).

3) White is one color, not three colors. The Lord is one person, not three persons.

4) White consists of three colors. The Lord consists of three persons.

 

[DebbieJ]

I guess, you do not adhere to the trinity. Totally fine.

 

[DebbieJ]

You could go there in spite of what we find in the quotes below - but not because of these following quotes... agreed?

He does not convey the meaning that He is "Talking to Himself"

I don't think you even understood my post. It's just high school science.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I guess, you do not adhere to the trinity. Totally fine.

The video provided addresses erroneous uses of analogies which almost always lead to heretical ideas about God, and points out the orthodox position of the Trinity.

The problem with the light analogy you provided is that it's an example of one of those analogies that gets things wrong--even if that wasn't your intent, it is likely to provide more confusion for new Christians or those outside of the faith than add clarity.

Here is a more specific criticism of your analogy: It is true that white light consists of the entire visible spectrum, but even ignoring the fact that the visible spectrum covers all visible colors (in all their uncountable hues and shades imaginable) and is not just the three color rods in the human retina; ignoring that part, the problem is that it suggests God as a composition: that God (white light) consists of the three Persons (the three colors), like an amalgam.

When, in reality, the doctrine of the Trinity teaches that each Person of the Trinity is fully and truly God in Himself, the Father is Himself God, the Son is Himself God, and the Holy Spirit is Himself God.

When we speak of the Father, we are speaking about God, all of God.
When we speak of the Son, we are speaking about God, all of God.
When we speak of the Holy Spirit, we are speaking about God, all of God.

Each Person in His Hypostasis is the one, undivided God--fully and entirely God.

But we do not have three gods, because the Father is God, and the Son is God, and the Spirit is God, the same God. But the Person of the Father is distinctly Himself, the Person of the Son is distinctly Himself, and the Person of the Holy Spirit is distinctly Himself. Each distinct, and yet one and the same God.

Thus there is one Being and three Persons. The Son is God because He is of the same Being (homoousios) as the Father, for He has His Being from the Father as the only-begotten Son of the Father, He is therefore God of God, the Son of the Father. Likewise, the Holy Spirit is God because He is of the same Being as the Father and the Son, having His Being from the Father [and the Son], as the eternally proceeding Spirit of the Father and the Son.

There is therefore one God, the Father, the Almighty Maker of heaven and earth,
And Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son our Lord, who is eternally begotten of the Father, uncreated, God of God, of the same Being with the Father,
And the Holy Spirit, the Lord and Giver of Life who proceeds from the Father [and the Son], who with the Father and the Son is worshiped and glorified.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Radagast]

I guess, you do not adhere to the trinity. Totally fine.

I'm Trinitarian, all right.

I just thought that the light analogy was a bad analogy (it expresses partialism: the blue light is simply part of the white light).

 

[DebbieJ]

I'm Trinitarian, all right.

I just thought that the light analogy was a bad analogy (it expresses partialism: the blue light is simply part of the white light).

I guess science is something not most are familiar with. I debated an atheist once and he doesn't even know that white light can refract in a prism to produce 7 colors. I simply left the thread. lol

Anyway, not all can see this in a scientific perspective and continuing further will be a tiring quest even if we agreed on the same thing.

Enjoy the thread. Got to go.

 

[Radagast]

I guess science is something not most are familiar with.

Cough, cough. I am a professional scientist, as it happens.

But don't feel bad that I didn't like your analogy of the Trinity. I don't think that any analogy of the Trinity holds water.

I debated an atheist once and he doesn't even know that white light can refract in a prism to produce 7 colors.

A lot more than 7. In terms of frequency, infinitely many. In terms of "just noticeable differences," hundreds.

 

[BobRyan]

Well the Herald article mentioned Unitarianism at the start that got me on that tangent. Part of the problem, the SDA's in their earlier history were anti-Trinitarian, but they changed their doctrine later on.

Up to the 1890s most Seventh-day Adventists were anti-Trinitarian. They viewed God the Father as God in every way, the Son as divine but begotten and having a beginning, and the Holy Spirit reduced to merely a manifestation of either the Father or the Son. This came to a head in the important 1888 Conference with the preaching of A. T. Jones and E. J. Waggoner who brought a focus of the biblical doctrine of the Godhead in part because of the emphasis on Jesus, and how the law and righteousness by faith come together.[51][52]

Seventh-day Adventist theology - Wikipedia.


But yes the basic formula of 3 persons in one God / Godhead is the basic Trinitarian formula in everyday language.

The article did use the word "unitarian" in its slam of American Protestants but never claimed that Ellen White or the Seventh-day Adventist denomination was Unitarian. It merely said "The 1830s were a tempestuous time for American Protestantism, from the fires of the Second Great Awakening to the ongoing march of Unitarianism"

That unitarian idea has never been one of the Adventist fundamental beliefs nor has there ever been an anti-Trinitarian statement in the published statements of beliefs of the Adventist church which was formed in 1863 and had it's first published statement of beliefs in 1872.

Did its members include some anti-trinitarians? I think so but Ellen White was a united Methodist from the very start - and so was always Trinitarian. Including her statement that the Holy Spirit is the third Person of the Godhead. (Something I have never heard from anti-trinitarians)

=====================

In any case I am getting results on the "One God in three Persons" question which is one of the key objectives of the thread.

 

[BobRyan]

I consider the O.P. to be rather dishonest, because the Catholic Herald is criticising "three separate Divine Persons" (Tritheism), but that's not the wording in the poll.

1. The OP statement is a direct quote showing that the Catholic Herald is objecting to the "three persons" element as they state it by inserting the "distinct and separate" language as qualifiers - which the Catholic Herald inserts on their own.

2. The Catholic Herald adds their own "three distinct and separate" qualifier which I cannot find at all in Ellen White's writings -- probably because of that 1 Peter 1 statement about "Holy Spirit within them" would make the "and separate" qualifier difficult even for humans. Not sure why they insert it - since they never find such a phrase used by her. Still I show their exact quote.

3. The title and the question - both use the "one God in three persons" form since this is the form Ellen White uses and the Herald merely inserts their own
"three separate Divine Persons rather than the orthodox doctrine of Trinity;"

1 Peter 1
10 As to this salvation, the prophets who prophesied of the grace that would come to you made careful searches and inquiries, 11 seeking to know what person or time the Spirit of Christ within them was indicating as He predicted the sufferings of Christ and the glories to follow.

As to whether it's accurate for the Catholic Herald to call Ellen G. White's doctrine of the "Heavenly Trio" Tritheism, I haven't read her work, so I can't comment

1. I don't find the term "Tritheism" in the Catholic Herald article. Heretic of the week: Ellen G White - Catholic Herald
2. I don't find "Tritheism" in Ellen White's writings either. But she does use the term "Heavenly trio" since she believes it is one God in Three persons and not "one God in one person" or "one God in two persons"
3. Having said that -- I don't find "Heavenly Trio" in the article by the Catholic Herald either.

(the question seems to be a complex one). Her husband, James White, was explicitly anti-Trinitarian, though, as were many early SDAs.

James White was baptized into the Christian Connexion at age 15. As wikipedia notes about the CC - "The eastern members had several key differences with the Stone and Campbell group: an emphasis on conversion experience, quarterly observance of communion, and nontrinitarianism.[5]:190"

However his beliefs "evolved" over time to the point that within 5 years of his death he stated that he no longer sees any controversy between his beliefs and trinitarian beliefs --- whereas in his earlier life he could think of (and published) many differences.

Modern SDAs seem mostly to be Trinitarian, however (at least the ones on CF).

That might be because their 28 Fundamental beliefs https://szu.adventist.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/28_Beliefs.pdf say this in belief #2-

The Trinity
There is one God: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, a unity of three coeternal Persons. God is immortal, all-powerful, all-know-ing, above all, and ever present. He is infinite and beyond human comprehension, yet known through His self-revelation. God, who is love, is forever worthy of worship, adoration, and service by the whole creation. (Gen. 1:26; Deut. 6:4; Isa. 6:8; Matt. 28:19; John 3:16 2 Cor. 1:21, 22; 13:14; Eph. 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2.)

 

[BobRyan]

The Lord is one person, one being, the "I AM" singular, coexisting simultaneously as the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

You could go there in spite of what we find in the quotes below - but not because of these following quotes... agreed?

Jesus said - they are 3 distinct persons

John 14
25 “These things I have spoken to you while abiding with you. 26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said to you. 27 Peace I leave with you; My peace I give to you; not as the world gives do I give to you. Do not let your heart be troubled, nor let it be fearful. 28 You heard that I said to you, ‘I go away, and I will come to you.’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater than I.

John 17
4 I glorified You on the earth, having accomplished the work which You have given Me to do. 5 Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

He does not convey the meaning that He is "Talking to Himself"

I don't think you even understood my post. It's just high school science.

Well I did not get any science in my study of biophysics that lead me to the kind of trinity illustration for a mere 7 colors in refraction via a prism that you posted. But you are free to use whatever illustration you please, of course.

 

[Albion]

In the article below it appears that at least the "Catholic Herald" does not accept the One God (Deut 6:4) in three persons (Matthew 28:19) definition.

Jan 9.. 2020 "Heretic of the week" article at Catholic Herald
Appears to object to the following:
"three separate Divine Persons rather than the orthodox doctrine of Trinity;"

Without commenting on Ellen G. White's ideas, the Catholic Herald's statement as represented in this snippet looks correct. The three persons of the Trinity are not three different beings as the modern use of the word "person" might suggest.