One cannot believe OSAS without believing in 5 points Calvinism

[His student]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

Just as you suspected - I and many others disagree with you.

Why does God remove your free will when you become a Christian?

He doesn't. I've never met anyone who believes that. Do you?

Anyways, God chooses to save some when he could save all.

Arminians, Calvinist, Catholic, Orthodox, Mormons, and every group I know of believes that.

Do you believe in Once Saved Always Saved?

Yes - I do. I believe it because Jesus said so.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

 

[Ronald]

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..."
Remember, many will come to Jesus and say Lord, Lord ... and He will say away from Me _ "I never knew you". That means He never had a relationship with them not that He does not know all things. So in that sense, those He foreknew (had a relationship with), He predestined.

 

[GingerBeer]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

You ought to be surprised at how inconsistent Christians can be about the doctrines they claim to believe.

 

[Not David]

Of those who are saved (die in a state of grace), do you believe that any of these will (or even can) choose to abandon/reject/lose their faith in the age to come?

Assuming you do not, why do you believe that?

Thanks!

--David

Because they have established their will to God's will. Jesus had two wills, the human will with the divine will. Was Jesus' will subjected to his divine will? No, it was just in accordance to what a non-fallen human will would be.

 

[Not David]

Just as you suspected - I and many others disagree with you.

He doesn't. I've never met anyone who believes that. Do you?

Arminians, Calvinist, Catholic, Orthodox, Mormons, and every group I know of believes that.

Yes - I do. I believe it because Jesus said so.

"Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life. He does not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life." John 5:24

Orthodox view Jesus as the savior of all men but there is more to that, and it does not involve universalism.
Also eternal life is in the future, you still don't have eternal life you know that?

 

[Not David]

"For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son..."
Remember, many will come to Jesus and say Lord, Lord ... and He will say away from Me _ "I never knew you". That means He never had a relationship with them not that He does not know all things. So in that sense, those He foreknew (had a relationship with), He predestined.

Is that supporting me or is it against me?

 

[Silverback]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

Understanding, and accepting total depravity is essential if you want to understand unconditional election. I will try to put this simply:

1. All of humanity already stands condemned before God. We are unable to help ourself, save ourself, turn to God, fear God, love God, or, even believe in God. All of humanity stands guilty before God, and justly deserves his wrath, and punishment. This is total depravity.

2.) God, before the foundation of the world, chose those he would bring to faith in Christ. This was based on his own counsil, and not on something special about any one person. However, it was not some type of counting where every third person for example was selected. Nor was it based on his divine foreknowledge, but a simple act of grace. This is unconditional election.

Everyone stands guilty before God, and worthy of his divine wrath. Some people receive God's mercy, Some are passed by and receive justice, no one receives injustice.

 

[Neogaia777]

Understanding, and accepting total depravity is essential if you want to understand unconditional election. I will try to put this simply:

1. All of humanity already stands condemned before God. We are unable to help ourself, save ourself, turn to God, fear God, love God, or, even believe in God. All of humanity stands guilty before God, and justly deserves his wrath, and punishment. This is total depravity.

2.) God, before the foundation of the world, chose those he would bring to faith in Christ. This was based on his own counsil, and not on something special about any one person. However, it was not some type of counting where every third person for example was selected. Nor was it based on his divine foreknowledge, but a simple act of grace. This is unconditional election.

Everyone stands guilty before God, and worthy of his divine wrath. Some people receive God's mercy, Some are passed by and receive justice, no one receives injustice.

So do we have "choice"...?

God Bless!

 

[Concord1968]

So do we have "choice"...?

God Bless!

According to Lutheran theology, no. Salvation is entirely monergistic according to the classical Lutheran confessions.

 

[Neogaia777]

According to Lutheran theology, no. Salvation is entirely monergistic according to the classical Lutheran confessions.

What does, or would that say about God...?

Or how do they explain what questions or address thoughts that might come up with that...?

Or how do we...?

God Bless!

 

[Silverback]

So do we have "choice"...?

God Bless!

Salvation is all God's work, our role is passive, I don't personally believe we make a "choice" for salvation. If we have to make a choice, then we are saving ourself. Lutherans would generally stop here without accepting the other principles of reformed doctrine such as limited attonement, irresistible grace, and perseverance of the saints.

Augustine wrote more on election than Martin Luther, who wrote more on the topic than John Calvin. These are tough to accept, not everyone does, and the argument has been raging since the 4th century. Because these doctrine are divisive, they are avoided by those outside the Reformed, Lutheran, some Anglican, and some very conservative Baptist groups. Additionally, there are some good arguments against Reformed doctrine as well.

So, I prefer to stay with "saved by God's grace for Christ same through faith, helps keep things grounded.

 

[Albion]

If you read what I have been posting, I am talking about the non-Calvinist OSAS.

OK. There are Calvinists who believe in Eternal Security (OSAS) and non-Calvinists who also believe it. That's true.

A lot has been posted on this thread since I last checked in, so I shouldn't say much more before catching up. However, I don't see that it makes much difference whether one is a Calvinist or a non-Calvinist who believes in OSAS. Trusting God not to lose or forsake his sheep is both Biblical and logical.

 

[roman2819]

Predestination in the Bible does not refer to single or double predestination of individuals, not at all.

Ephesians 1,2,3. explains that God had predestined or pre-planned to offer redemption to the Jews and then the Gentiles. I will just highlight the key words here:

Chapter 1:1-10: Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God. To the Saints at Ephesus … < Who are the Saints? This is revealed in 2:11: “.you who are Gentiles”, Paul was writing to Gentile Christians at Ephesus,. He called them “saints” because after repentance, they were no more unclean - now Gentiles too were holy in God's eyes. which the Jews used to think they were. Note that NIV version said “holy people” instead of Saints (ESV, NASB used “saints”).

[1:4-11] just as He [God] chose us in Him before the foundation of the world .. He predestined us ….. [11] In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him …. (12) in order that we, who were the first to put our hope in Christ, ...(13) And you also were included in Christ when you heard the message of truth ….<< who are the “us” and “we” ?

"We, who are first to hope in Christ" refer to Jews. Paul used the word "We" because he was a Jew writing to gentiles. Weren’t the Jews the first to be chosen by God as a nation or people? As the apostle referred to Gentiles, he said "you"

2:1-3:21: Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called “uncircumcised” ….. separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel. … (13) But now you… have been brought near by the blood of Christ..... (21) For he ...has made the two groups one...… His purpose was to create ... one new humanity out of the two, … (3:1 6) and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross … (18) For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit… This mystery is that through the gospel the Gentiles are heirs together with Israel, members together of one body, and sharers together in the promise in Christ Jesus …

Paul was trying to explain, that after Christ’s atonement, both Jews and Gentiles havd access to God if they repent and turn to Him. Notice the emphasis of two people become one to God, means no more segregation in Him.

Why did Paul said "before the foundation of the earth" (1:11) ? It was to answer the Jews who claimed that God suddenly decided to offer redemption to the Gentiles after Israel rejected Jesus; they were implying that the Gentiles were second class or less important in God's eyes. However, Paul emphasized that way back, as early you can think of -- even before the foundation of the earth -- God had planned to reach out to the Gentiles; that is how early God had predestined or pre-planned this. It did not mean that He decided whether to save Jack or Jane before the earth was made.

Regarding Romans 9:18-23: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth .... " The Jews were shocked that God offered redemption to Gentiles, Paul was saying that God could choose to have mercy on Gentiles. It does not mean that God choose individuals to be saved.

[/QUOTE]

 

[His student]

Orthodox view Jesus as the savior of all men but there is more to that, and it does not involve universalism.
Also eternal life is in the future, you still don't have eternal life you know that?

I have no idea how you got on the subject of universalism.

No - I didn't know that I don't have eternal life. The reason I didn't know that is because it isn't true.

For you it might be true. I don't know you or your relationship with God. But for me - I know I have eternal life - now and forever because I have Jesus Christ now and forever.

"Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life." 1 John 5:12

"I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life." 1 John 5:13

"Truly, truly, I tell you, whoever hears My word and believes Him who sent Me has eternal life and will not come under judgment. Indeed, he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

"But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name." John 20:31

"But these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in His name." 1 John 1:2

"And this is that testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son." 1 John 5:11

"And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true--in His Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life." 1 John 5:20

 

[BobRyan]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

Either 4 or 5 point Calvinism would be needed... either one would support OSAS.

All you need to do is "solve" the problem of perseverance in Romans 2 - to get to OSAS

4 pointers "solve" it by deleting it.
5 pointers "solve it" by "retro-deleting" assurance of salvation if 20 years from today you fail to "persevere".

 

[FireDragon76]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

I'm not a fan of Calvinism but not every interpretation of Reformed theology necessarily implies that God actively choose who to damn. There are Amyraldians, for instance, that essentially believe in single predestination.

But I do think because this is such a debated, open question in Calvinism, it points to a weakness in the theology, and that's one reason among many I am Lutheran. Because for us, it's not an open question.

In what manner? Some hold to the idea that once you “said the prayer” that you can go off and live however you want. If that’s what you are referring to, that’s not Reformed Theology.

As a Lutheran, I also agree. We do not view Christian liberty as license to do manifest evil. But neither do we understand Christian discipleship in a legalistic fashion.

 

[Neogaia777]

I'm not a fan of Calvinism but not every interpretation of Reformed theology necessarily implies that God actively choose who to damn. There are Amyraldians, for instance, that essentially believe in single predestination.

But I do think because this is such a debated, open question in Calvinism, it points to a weakness in the theology, and that's one reason among many I am Lutheran. Because for us, it's not an open question.



As a Lutheran, I also agree. We do not view Christian liberty as license to do manifest evil. But neither do we understand Christian discipleship in a legalistic fashion.

So God does not choose who to damn...? Or make (create) some (long ago) the way they are, or were going to be, and predestining them for hell (anyway)...? Or to be or stand as damned, to and from the beginning, even the very beginning...?

God Bless!

 

[aiki]

I am sure some might disagree with me but it is illogical that one will always remain a Christian without accepting double predestination, unlimited atonement, etc.

I'm not a Calvinist, but you can read my defense of OSAS on a number of threads on this site. I don't think I'm illogical in my views and I should like to see you try to prove that I am.

 

[The Righterzpen]

If we do have choices, it would be like the choices within a video game world or simulated reality, the choices are only within the game, and we are only within the game (right now)... They would have been designed or created within the game, but only within the game, and the borders, rules and boundaries and parameters, limits of those choices, within the game, ect...

God Bless!

Interesting concept. I've never heard anyone convey the idea of "making choices" this way.

It does make sense though; that for the created, choice would have to be within certain parameters. Obviously being finite beings, we can't choose to bring the universe to an end. Even if we desired to do that, we don't have the power too.

So yes, I think the concept of "free choice" is sharply divided upon the difference between the creature and the Creator.

 

[baryogenesis]

"Free will" is an illusion.