Once Saved, Always Saved?

[Job8]

It is interesting because you identify the "grafted branches" as "believing gentiles". Notice the scripture clearly states that these "branches" will not be spared if they no longer believe. If they never truly believed and were never truly cheistians in the first place, why were they ever grafted in the first place?

Spared from what is the question? "Cut off " in what sense? For that, please take the full New Testament teaching on salvation.

 

[1John2:4]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

Hebrews 10

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

Hebrews 10: q26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[Albion]

It might be said that most of those who don't believe in OSAS believe in salvation that is at least partially earned by works. It wouldn't be correct to say that it's all who don't, however.

 

[-57]

For those who believe you can lose your salvation....Guess what? If that were true you have already lost it.

 

[aiki]

What life do you have if you are no longer part of the true vine (lifted up or cut), Yeshua? Nonsense.You are ignoring the text. Look at the text within context and you get your interpretation right.

??? Actually, I'm looking far more closely at the text than it appears you are. Certainly, you have offered nothing that is even close to a refutation of the observations I've made.

Selah.

 

[-57]

How many so called "Christians" actually follow Him? Live their lives as He would have them do?
That is why Christ Himself said that many would call on His name but He would not know them.

Why do you think that Paul repeatedly stated that the race must be run to the end?
Anyone can walk away from Christ due to laziness, arrogance or whatever, and doing so they lose their salvation.

Can I be 75% lazy and retain my salvation? How about 25% lazy? How arrogant can I get before I lose my salvation?
How many sins will it take for me to lose my salvation? 'Cause when I sin I'm not following Jesus. How much good workd do I need to do?

 

[aiki]

I would think, given God's supreme purity and perfect holiness that even the slightest whiff of sin would be sufficient to exclude one from His family - if that were actually possible once one has been adopted into it. An impossible situation in which to function as a child of God, no?

Selah.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

If he elects someone, it presumes that there would otherwise be a chance that they would NOT be among the saved. But if everyone is going to be saved, regardless of anything and everything, the whole point of making an election is set aside. "The Elect" would be....everyone!

Why do you keep saying this? Can God not elect people to be saved for a purpose and not give everyone else an opportunity to be saved? Key word here is "opportunity". I never once said or implied that God will save everyone "regardless of anything and everything". Please show me something in scripture that specifically says that there is no opportunity for someone to be saved and that it is only the elect who will be saved. Why is the door for salvation closed for the non-elect who desire salvation?

 

[-57]

I would think, given God's supreme purity and perfect holiness that even the slightest whiff of sin would be sufficient to exclude one from His family - if that were actually possible once one has been adopted into it. An impossible situation in which to function as a child of God, no?

Selah.

Yes. I would also think that when our sins were imputed to Christ all of out past, present and FUTURE sin were imputed.

 

[-57]

Why do you keep saying this? Can God not elect people to be saved for a purpose and not give everyone else an opportunity to be saved? Key word here is "opportunity". I never once said or implied that God will save everyone "regardless of anything and everything". Please show me something in scripture that specifically says that there is no opportunity for someone to be saved and that it is only the elect who will be saved. Why is the door for salvation closed for the non-elect who desire salvation?

You have to look at it this way...everyone deserves hell. Everyone. God isn't required to save a single person and would in His rights to let every single human being die and go to hell. That would be justice.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

It might be said that most of those who don't believe in OSAS believe in salvation that is at least partially earned by works. It wouldn't be correct to say that it's all who don't, however.

And yet if they believe a false doctrine that teaches one has to work in order to earn salvation, they would have to accept they can work ill and lose their salvation.
Maybe that is what prompts threads like this to come into being. Those who believe they can lose salvation want to be reassured we've all risked that chance.

God calls whom he will to salvation. Jesus said no one can take those whom God calls from his hand. That pretty much clears it up. While those who think they can jump from his hand and end up in Hell are reading a teaching not of God.
I can't imagine the fear thinking any give time they could die and end up in Hell.

But it is so called pastors like that one on the radio I mentioned that lead people down the wrong road. Repent all the time and confess your sin or you'll end up in Hell.
That is literally a damned lie.
Sad.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Yes. I would also think that when our sins were imputed to Christ all of out past, present and FUTURE sin were imputed.

Indeed. Scriptures tell us when we repent and find faith in Christ through Gods grace that God remembers our sins no more. That would be a bit odd if God did not remember our sins anymore when we repented, but then would tally them against us once we're saved.

 

[aiki]

"Yes. I would also think that when our sins were imputed to Christ all of out past, present and FUTURE sin were imputed."

Yup. That's what Scripture teaches. (Heb. 9:12; 10:10-12; Ro. 5:15; 6:10; 1Pe. 3:18 etc.)

Selah.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

You have to look at it this way...everyone deserves hell. Everyone. God isn't required to save a single person and would in His rights to let every single human being die and go to hell. That would be justice.

Agreed, however why would He then say vv this vv and not give everyone an opportunity to come to repentance so that they would not perish?

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 NIV

 

[aiki]

I agree with you, Jason, that God does not offer the Gospel to all while secretly intending it only for a few. He does not desire that the majority of people should endure eternal destruction, purposely limiting His salvation to achieve that end. 1 Timothy 2:4, John 3:16 and Ezekiel 18:23 are other verses which make this clear.

Selah.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

You have to look at it this way...everyone deserves hell. Everyone. God isn't required to save a single person and would in His rights to let every single human being die and go to hell. That would be justice.

Being God is the Father whether people know him or not, that creator of the human race that first breathed a living soul into the Adam, that kind of thinking speaks horribly of God and his character.
I don't deserve Hell. I was made in the image and likeness of an almighty, all knowing, eternally present, all powerful source that knew me before the womb. And by name. If I deserve the Hell He created first for ha Satan and the fallen angels that followed his orders in Heaven's rebellion, then God made that so. And that is not the God my Father. That is what I've seen appear far too often in this forum when people describe their idea of God the way you do; maltheism! And a malevolent creator. That's not the God this Christian serves.

And that isn't the holy spirit that imbued Jesus with his power and authority from Heaven.
God set the parameters for what is sin. God gave the law that describes transgression of the law as sin. God set the rewards and God set the punishments. And God sent himself as Christ to give us a choice.
We don't deserve Hell. If we did Jesus wouldn't have been born.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

"Yes. I would also think that when our sins were imputed to Christ all of out past, present and FUTURE sin were imputed."

Yup. That's what Scripture teaches. (Heb. 9:12; 10:10-12; Ro. 5:15; 6:10; 1Pe. 3:18 etc.)

Selah.

Then what about Hebrew 10:26-31?

 

[aiki]

Then what about Hebrew 10:26-31?

I'm not sure what you're asking. What about this passage? Do you think it defies or contradicts the idea that Christ paid for all sin for all time? Do you think it indicates that Christ's atoning sacrifice was less than perfect? I'm not sure how you would come to this conclusion from the passage you referenced...

Selah.

 

[-57]

Agreed, however why would He then say vv this vv and not give everyone an opportunity to come to repentance so that they would not perish?

"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."
2 Peter 3:9 NIV

Does God grant everyone the ability to come to Jesus?
John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

I'm not sure what you're asking. What about this passage? Do you think it defies or contradicts the idea that Christ paid for all sin for all time? Do you think it indicates that Christ's atoning sacrifice was less than perfect? I'm not sure how you would come to this conclusion from the passage you referenced...

Selah.

I am asking you. Assuming everything you are saying is accurate and christians cannot sin because all sin has been imputed, why the warning about deliberate sin? What does Hebrews 10:26-31 mean?