Once Saved, Always Saved?

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

One can take all these passages and interpret them in the light of the eternal security of the believer. A person who claims to be a Christian but produces no spiritual fruit is in fact NOT a genuine Christian. The indwelling Holy Spirit must, and will, produce spiritual fruit.

That is not entirely true. The Holy Spirit will make the seeds of faith grow but it does not produce the fruit.

Other seed fell among thorns, which grew up and choked the plants. The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Matthew 13:7‭, ‬22 NIV

What, after all, is Apollos? And what is Paul? Only servants, through whom you came to believe—as the Lord has assigned to each his task. I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow. The one who plants and the one who waters have one purpose, and they will each be rewarded according to their own labor.
1 Corinthians 3:5‭-‬8 NIV

 

[SeventyOne]

In regard to my OP, my question is about the scriptural base of the doctrine of "OSAS." My question was, "Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?"

I'll advise Job8 to read post #1 again.

John 15:2
2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit.

Romans 11:22
22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.

My thread had done its purpose and I'll not reply beyond this post. As always, anyone with questions may send me a private message.

John 15 is referring to producing "fruit", an outward sign. It's not about being declared unjust before God.

Romans 11 is a direct continuation of Romans 10, where it is clearly spelled out that the referent of "those who fell" is the nation of Israel. Again, not a reference to one being declared unjustified.

This doesn't even make sense in our own world. A judge doesn't declare someone innocent of a crime, but then reverses himself later because he felt that person wasn't nice enough to other people.

 

[VanillaSunflowers]

Apparently, you missed out what I was saying from the very beginning. Have a read of Revelation 2-3, would you?

I'm very familiar with Revelation thank you.
Yes, there are many liars in the world today that hope to lead the people of God into fear, doubt, a sense of insecurity about God's holy word having misled them so that they think they can lose the salvation Jesus died to give them eternally.
God knows those ones name too. And they shall answer for trying to lead his sheep astray.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

To apply this passage to a lack of eternal security is to misapply it. It is contrasting unbelieving Jews (branches cut off) with believing Gentiles (branches grafted) into "the good olive tree" (believing Israel). This has nothing to do with loss of salvation, since unbelief means no salvation.

However, you have left out one important detail.

You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
Romans 11:19‭-‬21 NIV


It is interesting because you identify the "grafted branches" as "believing gentiles". Notice the scripture clearly states that these "branches" will not be spared if they no longer believe. If they never truly believed and were never truly christians in the first place, why were they ever grafted in the first place?

 

[Widlast]

How do you get around the part in red?

How many so called "Christians" actually follow Him? Live their lives as He would have them do?
That is why Christ Himself said that many would call on His name but He would not know them.

Why do you think that Paul repeatedly stated that the race must be run to the end?
Anyone can walk away from Christ due to laziness, arrogance or whatever, and doing so they lose their salvation.

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

Then you don't believe it.

I think that this verse is improperly understood by a lot of people who cite it, but in any case it's not possible that God has an Elect and yet saves everyone. The latter, if true, would make the former pointless or redundant.

Explain why that is the case. Why cannot God elect some individuals and predestined some to be saved for a specific purpose and not also keep the door open for anyone else to choose to be saved by their own choosing?

Btw...i never said that God saves everyone. I said the opportunity is avialable to everyone who so chooses.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

We do need to live up to out profession of faith. But there are also those who profess falsely.

Romans 8.38-39 is an important passage about the believer's eternal security, which would exclude completely the idea of being saved on Monday, then lost Tuesday, semi-saved Wednesday, etc.

 

[Albion]

I have my doubts about that second point. The first one is, of course, somewhat immaterial because no one is basing any of their conclusions on people who call themselves Christians but aren't genuine.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the church congregations as seven...

Messianic - Ephesus - They did not have much to do with the gentiles. Paul chastised Peter over this
Martyr - Smyrna - There were ten Roman persecutions that would arise against the church...
Orthodox - Pergamos - A pyrgos is a tower-Needed in the dark ages - Came along with Constantine
Catholic- The Spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. Came along with Charlemagne
Protestant - A sardius is a gem - Elegant yet hard and rigid... Came along with Martin Luther
Revived - Philadelphia is brotherly love and a fruit of Wesleyan sanctification- Began with John Bunyan, enhanced by John Wesley
Materialistic - Began with DL Moody, the first to get rich off of ministry

In which, the Lord takes issue with the doctrine of eternal security...

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

This is a race to be run, and the place of arrival is not when we get saved. If we overcome, then the Lord will not blot out our name in his book of life.

 

[Albion]

Explain why that is the case. Why cannot God elect some individuals and predestined some to be saved for a specific purpose and not also keep the door open for anyone else to choose to be saved by their own choosing?

If he elects someone, it presumes that there would otherwise be a chance that they would NOT be among the saved. But if everyone is going to be saved, regardless of anything and everything, the whole point of making an election is set aside. "The Elect" would be....everyone!

 

[SeventyOne]

How many so called "Christians" actually follow Him? Live their lives as He would have them do?
That is why Christ Himself said that many would call on His name but He would not know them.

That's an interesting thought. Let's look at that particular passage in a bit more context.

Matthew 7:21-23
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord, will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’"

So, these are people who are very 'christian' on the outside, prophesying, casting out demons, performing miracles in His name, but Jesus gives a contrast saying these people are evildoers who do not to the will of the Father. But if what they were doing is not following Him, then what are they doing? What is the will of the Father they are missing?

Bible says the one who do the will of the Father are His brother, sister and mother (Matt 12:50). It says the ones who do the will of the father are those who believe on Him that the father sent (John 6:40).

And again...

John 6:40 - For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.​

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.

John 3:36 - Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life

Romans 4:5 - And to the one who does not work but believes in him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is counted as righteousness​

I see a whole lot of justification by faith alone going on here, but condemnation to those who trusted of their outward works.

 

[rockytopva]

I believe the church congregations as seven...

Messianic - Ephesus - They did not have much to do with the gentiles. Paul chastised Peter over this
Martyr - Smyrna - There were ten Roman persecutions that would arise against the church...
Orthodox - Pergamos - A pyrgos is a tower-Needed in the dark ages - Came along with Constantine
Catholic- The Spirit of Jezebel is to control and to dominate. Came along with Charlemagne
Protestant - A sardius is a gem - Elegant yet hard and rigid... Came along with Martin Luther
Revived - Philadelphia is brotherly love and a fruit of Wesleyan sanctification- Began with John Bunyan, enhanced by John Wesley
Materialistic - Began with DL Moody, the first to get rich off of ministry

In which, the Lord takes issue with the doctrine of eternal security...

He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels. - Revelation 3:5

This is a race to be run, and the place of arrival is not when we get saved. If we overcome, then the Lord will not blot out our name in his book of life.

Not only with the Sardisean bunch...

Lest there should be among you man, or woman, or family, or tribe, whose heart turneth away this day from the Lord our God, to go and serve the gods of these nations; lest there should be among you a root that beareth gall and wormwood; And it come to pass, when he heareth the words of this curse, that he bless himself in his heart, saying, I shall have peace, though I walk in the imagination of mine heart, to add drunkenness to thirst: The Lord will not spare him, but then the anger of the Lord and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the Lord shall blot out his name from under heaven. - Deuteronomy 29:18-20

And Moses returned unto the Lord, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written. And the Lord said unto Moses, Whosoever hath sinned against me, him will I blot out of my book. - Exodus 32:31-33

 

[(° ͡ ͜ ͡ʖ ͡ °) (ᵔᴥᵔʋ)]

How many so called "Christians" actually follow Him? Live their lives as He would have them do?
That is why Christ Himself said that many would call on His name but He would not know them.

Why do you think that Paul repeatedly stated that the race must be run to the end?
Anyone can walk away from Christ due to laziness, arrogance or whatever, and doing so they lose their salvation.

Agreed. Salvation is given freely. But at the same time, it costs us everything. If you say that you are a christian and believe you are saved yet refuse to take up your cross" and die to self, you will not a true disciple "follower" of Christ! "Savior" is a title that describes something Jesus has done, "Lord" is a title that describes who Jesus is. You would have rejected Jesus' Lordship and thus rejected who Jesus is of you refuse to "take up your cross DAILY". WE CANNOT SERVE TWO MASTERS.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Take a look at the verse again. The sheep...

1. Hear His voice
2. Are known by Him
3. Follow Him
4. Are given eternal life
5. Will never perish
6. Cannot be snatched out of the Fathers hand

Now, if the question is what happens if they stop following Him and perish, the answer is clearly they were not sheep, because the sheep will follow and will never perish. That's the characteristics of a sheep. If what you describe has different characteristics, then it's not a sheep.

I dont think that's true, there are many life circumstances that will drive a wedge between god and believers. A death of a parent,child,spouse, extreme poverty...and if youre going through all this and still have a hard time hearing God... Then you feel alone and just end up wandering.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Anywho...if god gives free will then yes at any time a believer can lose their salvation.

 

[Far Side Of the Moon]

Anywho to answer the original question, since we have free will , yes we can lose our salvation-- though no fault of Gods but...life can get hard, really hard.

Life doesn't get easier after you get saved , tou still have trials-- and some are hellacious enough to push you away from God.

Not saying you cant overcome them but honestly life can bring you to your knees...

So I hate when people say those who walk away were never Christians to begin with...thats not true. Many start out with a zeal and love for God, worship and what not ...

And it may start slow , maybe they God doesn't talk to them as much and then becomes silent....then church members turn on them or worse bully them...and to top it off a loves one dies... All while God is seemingly silent..

That's enough to drive anyone crazy.....and the sad part is the stuff I listed isnt uncommon...and I think the fact God is silent throughout it all is the stake in the coffin...

Alot of people seem to think Just because God talks your head off he does the same for others...i dont think that's true... We are all different so he communicates with us in different ways.. Like what if god has a child who suffers from mental illness, obviously him "talking" to them wont be beneficial.

In addition, people seem to forget the book of Esther, god didnt speak once in that book...but he was behind the scenes in her life..

Just food for thought.

 

[aiki]

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

I prefer the NASB version:

John 15:1-3
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

So, what does "takes away" mean? Are we justified in thinking it means "ejected from God's family"? "Airo" in the Greek means "to hoist," or "lift up," or "to bear." It may also mean "take away," but given the practices of ancient Jewish vinedressers, it is very unlikely this would have been the way Christ's words would have been understood. According to Pliny, in Jewish viticulture, spring pruning did not involve the removal of all non-fruit bearing branches but mainly suckers on the sides of fruit-bearing branches. Non-fruit-bearing branches were vital to the maintenance of healthy vines in the next growing season and so were lifted up onto trellises to avoid moisture damage. (see "VITICULTURE AND JOHN 15:1-6" by Gary W. Derickson. Gary W. Derickson is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies, Western Baptist College, Salem, Oregon. This author holds B.S. and M.S. degrees in horticulture from Texas A&M University and taught grape-pruning as a teaching assistant there. )

6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.

Or, better:

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Compare this verse to the following passage:

Ezekiel 15:1-5
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
2 "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any wood of a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 "Can wood be taken from it to make anything, or can men take a peg from it on which to hang any vessel?
4 "If it has been put into the fire for fuel, and the fire has consumed both of its ends and its middle part has been charred, is it then useful for anything?
5 "Behold, while it is intact, it is not made into anything. How much less, when the fire has consumed it and it is charred, can it still be made into anything!

Both the verse in John 15 and this passage in Ezekiel 15 emphasize the same thing concerning the vine: uselessness (as opposed to destruction). Rather than seeing John 15:6 as teaching a saved and lost doctrine, it is better understood as describing the spiritual uselessness of those who, though adopted into God's family, do not abide in Christ their Saviour as a constant, moment-by-moment state of affairs.

Romans 11:17-23
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This passage addresses Jews and Gentiles as groups of people and states simply that unbelief toward God in either group will result in the same separation from Him. The Gentiles, then, were not to think of themselves as superior to the Jew but as much a recipient of God's kindness and as much dependent upon Him as any of His Chosen People (however alienated from God they may be). The passage does not teach a saved and lost doctrine but is, instead, an injunction to Gentiles to maintain reverent humility and belief toward God; for one cannot have a relationship with Him apart from these things.

In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

Not so. In the parable of John 15 the branches are not cut off but lifted up (vs. 2) and/or may become useless to God (though not un-adopted - vs. 6). The passage in Romans 11 is a reminder that, whether Jew or Gentile, without humility and faith toward God one cannot have a relationship with Him.

Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

Yes, I still firmly believe that once one is saved, one is forever saved. Other passages and verses qualify the ones you've offered in such a way as to make a saved-and-lost perspective impossible.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

John 10:29
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Selah.

 

[bcbsr]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

It means that "everyone born of God overcomes the world." 1John 5:4 And thus are eternally secure, seeing as "No one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God." 1John 3:9

"And you also were included in Christ when you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation. Having believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit, who is a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance until the redemption of those who are God’s possession— to the praise of his glory." Eph 1:13,14

Those who don't accept Eternal Security trust in their own works to save them.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

I prefer the NASB version:

John 15:1-3
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.

So, what does "takes away" mean? Are we justified in thinking it means "ejected from God's family"? "Airo" in the Greek means "to hoist," or "lift up," or "to bear." It may also mean "take away" but given the practices of ancient Jewish vinedressers, it is very unlikely this would have been the way Christ's words would have been understood. According to Pliny, in Jewish viticulture, spring pruning did not involve the removal of all non-fruit bearing branches but mainly suckers on the sides of fruit-bearing branches. Non-fruit-bearing branches were vital to the maintenance of healthy vines in the next growing season and so were lifted up onto trellises to avoid moisture damage. (see "VITICULTURE AND JOHN 15:1-6" by Gary W. Derickson. Gary W. Derickson is Associate Professor of Biblical Studies, Western Baptist College, Salem, Oregon. This author holds B.S. and M.S. degrees in horticulture from Texas A&M University and taught grape-pruning as a teaching assistant there. )



Or, better:

John 15:6
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.

Compare this verse to the following passage:

Ezekiel 15:1-5
1 Then the word of the Lord came to me, saying,
2 "Son of man, how is the wood of the vine better than any wood of a branch which is among the trees of the forest?
3 "Can wood be taken from it to make anything, or can men take a peg from it on which to hang any vessel?
4 "If it has been put into the fire for fuel, and the fire has consumed both of its ends and its middle part has been charred, is it then useful for anything?
5 "Behold, while it is intact, it is not made into anything. How much less, when the fire has consumed it and it is charred, can it still be made into anything!

Both the verse in John 15 and this passage in Ezekiel 15 emphasize the same thing: uselessness (as opposed to destruction). Rather than seeing John 15:6 as teaching a saved and lost doctrine, it is better understood as describing the spiritual uselessness of those who, though adopted into God's family, do not abide in Christ their Saviour as a constant, moment-by-moment state of affairs.

Romans 11:17-23
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God's kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

This passage addresses Jews and Gentiles as groups of people and states simply that unbelief toward God in either group will result in the same separation from Him. The Gentiles, then, were not to think of themselves as superior to the Jew but as much a recipient of God's kindness and as much dependent upon Him as any of His Chosen People (however alienated from God they may be). The passage does not teach a saved and lost doctrine but is, instead, an injunction to Gentiles to maintain reverent humility and belief toward God for one cannot have a relationship with Him apart from these things.



Not so. In the parable of John 15 the branches are not cut off but lifted up (vs. 2) and/or may become useless to God (though not un-adopted - vs. 6). The passage in Romans 11 is a reminder that, whether Jew or Gentile, without humility and faith toward God one cannot have a relationship with Him.



Yes, I still firmly believe that once one is saved, one is forever saved. Other passages and verses qualify the ones you've offered in such a way as to make a saved-and-lost perspective impossible.

1 Thessalonians 5:23-24
23 Now may the God of peace Himself sanctify you completely; and may your whole spirit, soul, and body be preserved blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
24 He who calls you is faithful, who also will do it.

Philippians 1:6
6 being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

Hebrews 13:5
5 Let your conduct be without covetousness; be content with such things as you have. For He Himself has said, "I will never leave you nor forsake you."

John 10:29
29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Selah.

What life do you have if you are no longer part of the true vine (lifted up or cut), Yeshua? Nonsense.You are ignoring the text. Look at the text within context and you get your interpretation right.

 

[דוד חֵן (David)]

Those who don't accept Eternal Security trust in their own works to save them.

Says who? bcbsr says so and not scripture! Give me a bible verse that supports your view and make sure the ones you quoted are related passages. Thank you.