Once Saved, Always Saved?

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Not sure what you mean. Please explain.

'k , ready ? ('tis GOOD IN Y'SHUA)
I think (and repent of ) I got you mixed up with someone who replied to you, or who you replied to.
Here's what I looked thru the last half hour (I can't find a disagreement with your posts(I'll edit the previous post now) ; they (that I read) all line up with SCRIPTURE best as I can tell..)

It is clear that we can lose our salvation if we are not fruitful according to the scriptures. To be in Christ is to be fruitful. There should be no disagreement with the fact that to be in the Vine means to be in Christ. v. 5 "I am the Vine you are the branches." The only way you can be in Christ/Vine is to be saved.

The text tells us how to be fruitful.
John 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

AMEIN HALLELUYAH ! in Y'SHUA FOREVER !

A few words from Jesus on this subject.
Mt 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Mr 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name’s sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

as Y'SHUA said: PRAY fervently for wisdom
AND for STRENGTH TO ENDURE (it is needed and necessary and without it, disastrous results).

These verses provide assurance of salvation if we endure to the end. We are required to live the new life that we received in faithfulness to Christ. Those that are not faithful to the end will not enter into heaven.
II Pet 2:20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

AMEIN. Simple, True. Not accepted most places.(like the rest of YHWH'S WORD, rejected by most)

Can one escape the pollutions/corruptions/defilements of the world without knowing Christ?
Notice the words "again entangled and overcome". We know that we were once entangled and overcome prior to Jesus setting us free.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

AMEIN; Y'SHUA SET US FREE for HIS OWN NAME SAKE ! HALLELUYAH !

True, it was meant as a statement of fact. Ro 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

GLADLY AND WILLINGLY AND OVERFLOWING WITH GREAT JOY !
((WITH THE RESURRECTION LIFE OF Y'SHUA IS IN US BY HIS WORD and HIS DOING))(the SAME SPIRIT RAISED Y'SHUA FROM THE DEAD,
LIVES IN US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES ! HALLELUYAH !!)

How can one be dead twice if not alive at least once?

Simple. This was the 'first' post I replied to. All about english 'dead' not realizing YHWH'S WORD. (in general, not differentiated or known)
And "as a little child" understanding .

If one was never born again that could be the case but the scripture refers to spiritual life and death, not physical. "twice dead".

For another thread (I think we agree).

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

AMEIN HALLELUYAH ! in Y'SHUA FOREVER !

 

[ScottA]

Shalom,

Read John 15:1-6, now look at the following verses:

1 I am the true vine, and my Father is the vintner. 2 He cuts off every branch that does not produce fruit in me, and he cuts back every branch that does produce fruit, so that it might produce more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of what I’ve spoken to you.

4 Abide in me, and I will abide in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. The one who abides in me while I abide in him produces much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing. 6 Unless a person abides in me, he is thrown away like a pruned branch and dries up. People gather such branches, throw them into a fire, and they are burned up.
​

Now, read Romans 11:17-22 then think about the following:

17 Now if some of the branches have been broken off, and you, a wild olive branch, have been grafted in their place to share the rich root of the olive tree, 18 do not boast about being better than the other branches. If you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “Branches were cut off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 That’s right! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you remain only because of faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he certainly will not spare you, either.

22 Consider, then, the kindness and severity of God: his severity toward those who fell, but God’s kindness toward you—if you continue receiving his kindness. Otherwise, you too will be cut off.​

In John's gospel, the plant is a vine plant and we are branches and Yeshua is the vine. In Romans the plant is a fig tree and it is speaking of Israel as a body and implies that it is Yeshua. In both parables, we are the branches and in both parables we are in the Messiah and partake of the life of the plant which is THE HOLY SPIRIT. In both parables, the branches that have no fruit are cut off.

This implies quite clearly and without contradiction that a saved person with the SPIRIT OF GOD can be cut off.

Now, read Revelation 3:5 and ask yourself why Yeshua mentions not being blotted out of the book of life. Because it is possible to be blotted out.

5 The person who overcomes in this way will wear white clothes, and I will never erase his name from the Book of Life. I will acknowledge his name in the presence of my Father and his angels.​

The question we must now ask ourselves is:
Do we still believe that we cannot lose our salvation after being given THE SPIRIT OF GOD? If so, what does the above verses mean if not what it says?

By definition...saved, is saved.

We might better ask: If Christ told you that you are saved, and then you are blotted out of the Book of Life...is He then a liar? The answer, is No - for He is the Truth, and if He has said you are save...it is the truth: saved is saved.

No...there is no question about loosing salvation, there is only a question of whether you have been saved or not. There are many ways that people define "being saved", from simply believing to baptism that do not necessarily mean instant salvation. In other words, if one "believes", they or definitely on the way to salvation...but, if you then get cold feet and edge back to even partial disbelieve and are not holy committed, then it never really happened. But, all that is on us.

 

[spiritman]

'k , ready ? ('tis GOOD IN Y'SHUA)
I think (and repent of ) I got you mixed up with someone who replied to you, or who you replied to.
Here's what I looked thru the last half hour (I can't find a disagreement with your posts(I'll edit the previous post now) ; they (that I read) all line up with SCRIPTURE best as I can tell..)

AMEIN HALLELUYAH ! in Y'SHUA FOREVER !

as Y'SHUA said: PRAY fervently for wisdom
AND for STRENGTH TO ENDURE (it is needed and necessary and without it, disastrous results).

AMEIN. Simple, True. Not accepted most places.(like the rest of YHWH'S WORD, rejected by most)

AMEIN; Y'SHUA SET US FREE for HIS OWN NAME SAKE ! HALLELUYAH !
GLADLY AND WILLINGLY AND OVERFLOWING WITH GREAT JOY !
((WITH THE RESURRECTION LIFE OF Y'SHUA IS IN US BY HIS WORD and HIS DOING))(the SAME SPIRIT RAISED Y'SHUA FROM THE DEAD,
LIVES IN US!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! YES ! HALLELUYAH !!)


Simple. This was the 'first' post I replied to. All about english 'dead' not realizing YHWH'S WORD. (in general, not differentiated or known)
And "as a little child" understanding .

For another thread (I think we agree).

AMEIN HALLELUYAH ! in Y'SHUA FOREVER !

Grace and Peace be multiplied to you.

 

[Wordkeeper]

By definition...saved, is saved.

We might better ask: If Christ told you that you are saved, and then you are blotted out of the Book of Life...is He then a liar? The answer, is No - for He is the Truth, and if He has said you are save...it is the truth: saved is saved.

No...there is no question about loosing salvation, there is only a question of whether you have been saved or not. There are many ways that people define "being saved", from simply believing to baptism that do not necessarily mean instant salvation. In other words, if one "believes", they or definitely on the way to salvation...but, if you then get cold feet and edge back to even partial disbelieve and are not holy committed, then it never really happened. But, all that is on us.

Justification (baptism?), sanctification, glorification. At what point are we 'saved'?

 

[Philip_B]

Do you want an event or a process?

 

[ScottA]

Justification (baptism?), sanctification, glorification. At what point are we 'saved'?

At the point of being born again of the spirit of God.

 

[Wordkeeper]

At the point of being born again of the spirit of God.

What was the word spoken to Peter that made him clean (John 13:10)?

 

[Wordkeeper]

Do you want an event or a process?

Process, please.

 

[ScottA]

What was the word spoken to Peter that made him clean (John 13:10)?

Are you asking, or making a point? If you are making a point, please do.

 

[Wordkeeper]

Are you asking, or making a point? If you are making a point, please do.

Well it seems to me that people believe being born again may not be a very clear phenomena both in terms of time of occurrence or description.

Does it happen at baptism? Baptism seems to give people access both to communication from God and ability to understand it. Jesus stated that his teachings would be selfexplanatory to his followers whilst outsider would only hear parables, analogies. However, even those who drink from the Rock do not necessarily agree with the teachings, and God was displeased and swore they would not enter His rest.

Baptism can be understood to be a certification of willingsness, acknowledgement that the person has given up dependence on the world and is willing to turn to dependence on God. It's possible the latter may be tentative, but the acknowledgement is still given.

Infant baptism may have a different significance. The under twenties who accompanied the adults to turn away from Egypt and follow Moses never made a choice. However, because of believing parents, they had the advantage of having an easier task when they in turn were eventually asked to choose. In other words infant baptism signified nothing. Infants born to believing parents only enjoy the advantage of growing up in an environment where the dependence on the world was already ruled out. When asked to leave whatever was left of that dependence, the task was easier.

The training from God starts at the point of making that choice.

It takes the form of deprivation of necessities, and the resolve to view the deprivation as a process to accentuate the setting up of priorities. Jesus fasted in the desert, Israel had the fast imposed on her. Jesus never complained. Israel did. Jesus resisted the temptation to turn rocks into bread, Israel demanded God work miracles like He did in Egypt. God did work miracles. However, as mentioned, it did not have the necessary effect on some of those who witnessed those miracles, although it was not the fault of the miracles themselves. Most of the Israelites were overcome by their fear of dying at having left dependence on the world.


He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors
had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that proceeds from the mouth of the Lord. Deut 8:3


The entire process had the following purpose:

It revealed to God Israel's improvement in loyalty, or lack there of, just as Abraham's response to God's command to sacrifice Isaac revealed the improvement in his loyalty.

That humbling, training, was required, because only faith, loyalty could get them into the Promised Land, could get them past the giants.

So we can say that being born again is the change that occurs in a person when he realises that the only trustworthy Entity is God. We see the characteristic in Joshua and Caleb.

Baptism does not initiate justification, acknowledgement for being righteous. It acknowledged willingness to listen to God, drink from the Rock. Faith, loyalty initiates justification. Being born again, switching loyalty, meta noia, change of mindset, initiates justification.


3Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you emphatically, unless a person
is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3

Sanctification, freshening up those who have already bathed, is the form of the demands the King makes on those He has enlisted as His subjects. The vassal pledges loyalty to the sovereign, swearing to serve Him faithfully. The King requires even service to the extent of risk to life, when the need arises.


5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3

Entire sanctification occurs when one is willing to lay down their lives. It's not necessary to be rid of all your blemishes. Having the favour of the King, His grace, is sufficient.

9But he said to me, "My grace issufficient for you, for my power is made perfect
in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 2 Corinthians 12

 

[ScottA]

Well it seems to me that people believe being born again may not be a very clear phenomena both in terms of time of occurrence or description.

Does it happen at baptism? Baptism seems to give people access both to communication from God and ability to understand it. Jesus stated that his teachings would be selfexplanatory to his followers whilst outsider would only hear parables, analogies. However, even those who drink from the Rock do not necessarily agree with the teachings, and God was displeased and swore they would not enter His rest.

Baptism can be understood to be a certification of righteousness, acknowledgement that the person has given up dependence on the world and turned to dependence on God. It's possible the latter may be tentative, but the acknowledgement is still given.

Infant baptism may have a different significance. The under twenties who accompanied the adults to turn away from Egypt and follow Moses never made a choice. However, because of believing parents, they had the advantage of having an easier task when they in turn were eventually asked to choose. In other words infant baptism signified nothing. Infants born to believing parents only enjoy the advantage of growing up in an environment where the dependence on the world was already ruled out. When asked to leave whatever was left of that dependence, the task was easier.

The training from God starts at the point of making that choice.

It takes the form of deprivation of necessities, and the resolve to view the deprivation as a process to accentuate the setting up of priorities. Jesus fasted in the desert, Israel had the fast imposed on her. Jesus never complained. Israel did. Jesus resisted the temptation to turn rocks into bread, Israel demanded God work miracles like He did in Egypt. God did work miracles. However, as mentioned, it did not have the necessary effect on some of those who witnessed those miracles, although it was not the fault of the miracles themselves. Most of the Israelites were overcome by their fear of dying at having left dependence on the world.


He humbled you, causing you to hunger and then feeding you with manna, which neither you nor your ancestors
had known, to teach you that man does not live on bread alone but on every word that process as from the mouth of the Lord. Deut 8:3


The entire process had the following purpose:

It revealed to God Israel's improvement in loyalty, or lack there of, just as Abraham's response to God's command to sacrifice Isaac revealed the improvement in his loyalty.

That humbling, training, was required, because only loyalty could get them into the Promised Land, could get them part the giants.

So we can say that being born again is the change that occurs in a person when he realises that the only trustworthy Entity is God. We see the characteristic in Joshua and Caleb.

Baptism does not initiate justification, acknowledgement for being righteous. It acknowledged willingness to listen to God, drink from the Rock. Faith, loyalty initiates justification. Being born again, switching loyalty, meta noia, change of mindset, initiates justification.


3Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you emphatically, unless a person
is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God." John 3

Sanctification, freshening up those who have already bathed, is the form of the demands the King makes on those He has enlisted as His subjects. The vassal pledges loyalty to the sovereign, swearing to serve Him faithfully. The King requires even service to the extent of risk to life, when the need arises.


5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. John 3

Entire sanctification occurs when one is willing to lay down their lives. It's not necessary to be rid of all your blemishes. Having the favour of the King, His grace, is sufficient.

9But he said to me, "My grace issufficient for you, for my power is made perfect
in weakness." Therefore I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me. 2 Corinthians 12

That is quite an exhortation, but you miss the point:

What we do in the world does not save us - we must be born out of the world...which only comes by the indwelling spirit of God. Thus, we must be born again, which is the beginning of us becoming a completely new creation, i.e., "there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44

So, then, all other acts (including baptism) are a mere foreshadowing of what must take place in order to be saved.

 

[Wordkeeper]

That is quite an exhortation, but you miss the point:

What we do in the world does not save us - we must be born out of the world...which only comes by the indwelling spirit of God. Thus, we must be born again, which is the beginning of us becoming a completely new creation, i.e., "there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body." 1 Corinthians 15:44

So, then, all other acts (including baptism) are a mere foreshadowing of what must take place in order to be saved.

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are thosewho are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenlyMan.
__________________

You seem to be talking about the resurrection.

 

[ScottA]

1 Corinthians 15:42 So also is the resurrection of the dead.The body is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption. 43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power. 44 It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. 45 And so it is written, “The first man Adam became a living being.” The last Adam became a life-giving spirit.

46 However, the spiritual is not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.47 The first man was of the earth, made of dust; the second Man is the Lord from heaven. 48 As was the man of dust, so also are those who are made of dust; and as is the heavenly Man, so also are thosewho are heavenly. 49 And as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we shall also bear the image of the heavenlyMan.
__________________

You seem to be talking about the resurrection.

And so it is that we are saved.

 

[Wordkeeper]

And so it is that we are saved.

No one I have heard of equates resurrection to being born again.

Do you know of any other person who thinks like you?

 

[trinichristiannudist]

[QUOTquestion bbbbb, post: 70259586, member: 377663"]So, exactly what does it take to "choose not to hold onto it"?[/QUOTE]
Good question bbbbb! I can only answer this way. YOU SIMPLY CHOOSE NOT TO HOLD ONTO IT. Remember what JOSHUA told Israel in Joshua 24:14& 15. "CHOOSE ye this day whom YE WILL serve". God is not a dictator nor is he a narcissist that he demands our full attention and worship. We are still free to CHOOSE to walk away from him and our salvation if we want to do so.The difference is that GOD being the merciful, loving god he is NEVER WALKS AWAY FROM US!! As EXODUS says in34: 6&7,"The LORD GOD, merciful & gracious, longsuffering,......... Keeping MERCY for thousands, forgiving iniquity, transgressions, and sin,". So thus even if we CHOOSE not to hold onto our salvation, he HOLDS on to us. Regardless of what we have done or are doing. This is the mysterious ways of GOD!! So we can CHOOSE to let go of our salvation or Hold onto it, either way GOD is still merciful to keep us within his divine plan. That is y HOLY SPIRIT does what he does on a daily basis as shown in ROMANS chapters 7&8. And in GALATIANS 5:17-26. If it wasn't for him then the hope for our present position of being secure for eternity would not be possible! Hope this answers your question!!

So, exactly what does it take to "choose not to hold onto it"?

 

[trinichristiannudist]

[Qbelieve="Wordkeeper, post: 70281225, member: 339918"]No one I have heard of equates resurrection to being born again.

Do you know of any other person who thinks like you?[/QUOTE]
I believe this is why being born again is called the resurrected life. You die to your old self and is raised up again new as Paul the Apostle exhorted in Ephesians 2.

 

[ScottA]

No one I have heard of equates resurrection to being born again.

Do you know of any other person who thinks like you?

No. Most people live in the world and are of the world. They think like the world, and say, "I will be...". But I am not of the world, I am.

 

[Wordkeeper]

No. Most people live in the world and are of the world. They think like the world, and say, "I will be...". But I am not of the world, I am.

Glad you agree that no one has the same theory as you do. Because they would be holding to a theory that has problems.

Jesus said no one could enter the kingdom of God unless they were born again.

He also said the prostitutes and the tax collectors were already entering the kingdom of God.

According to your theory, if I understand you right, only the dead and the resuscitated people are considered born again.

So the conclusion, which is problematic, is that the prostitutes and the tax collectors have died and are entering the kingdom of God.

 

[ScottA]

Glad you agree that no one has the same theory as you do. Because they would be holding to a theory that has problems.

Jesus said no one could enter the kingdom of God unless they were born again.

He also said the prostitutes and the tax collectors were already entering the kingdom of God.

According to your theory, if I understand you right, only the dead and the resuscitated people are considered born again.

So the conclusion, which is problematic, is that the prostitutes and the tax collectors have died and are entering the kingdom of God.

You apparently see a problem where there is none. Perhaps it is because you do not see yourself like the prostitutes and the tax collectors and see yourself as somehow better than they are. That is false. We all fall short. This is the word of God.

The other issue that you apparently have not taken into account, is time. Time is an illusion, part of the creation, part of our fallen status...which God is above. If we then are born (again) of God, we are indeed saved from the curse of time, raised up, and with God, One with God. This is salvation.

Remaining in the world, though saved (born again) is what is referred to in scripture as "he who had his right foot on the sea, and his left foot on the land" Revelation 10:2. This is an image of Christ having been raised up, but also living within us upon the earth. We are in Him, and He in us - we reign with Him during this time. During such a time, we are "sealed" "in Him" and "dead to our old nature."

If you do not know these things, then your reign with Christ during these times is of little profit (in slumber), limited to what Christ does in you without your knowledge...and yet more profitable if you know this. Nonetheless, whether you are aware or unaware, the times are prolonged that all should be saved, whom the Lord has chosen.

God bless.

 

[spiritman]

Another reason I don't believe in once saved, always saved, no matter how a person lives his life.

Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt by the second death.