Once Saved, Always Saved?

jason_delisle said:

When you were a child, did you love and fear you father? Yes, I would love someone I feared. Because, just like my father, the wrath of our Father is given out of love so that we will not be lost forever.

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Yes and just like a father you would worry about him murdering you and casting you into a furnace if you did not obey him ..see this what I cannot get you all compare GOD as a father yet in this comparison you then turn him into a wicked father that will lob you into hell ...

because you did not do a b c and d ..this is a bunch of bullocks ..he is said to chastise his sons this is to discipline us for ust to grow as part of the promise that he will complete what he started in us .. if we are sons we have NO FEAR of hell ...we the apostles state he is our father our father would not take the children and toss them into hell this is quite evil of a thought ..so a father is not going to cast his sons or daughters in a firey pit.

ldibart said:

Yes I do, for those saved we can now truly please him and are rewarded and lose rewards according to the works done .. those that are not alive in christ cannot and have no will no free will to do what is pleasing to the lord .

when Adam and Eve fell they died immediately spiritually let the dead bury their dead ..if you can understand that a dead person as even Christ stated about people in this state are indeed every bit as dead as if you are looking at a corpse ..

These people DO NOT have free will in this state .the only free will they will have is when GOD has appointed them a time that he will speak to them and be transformed from death unto life in their spirit with the acceptance of his Son and Savior Jesus . As we are made Spirtually alive so to will we be made Physically alive forever by the transforming of our Bodies to the Immortal bodies which Christ has prepared for us.

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So are you saying once "saved" you can not choose to sin or choose to ask for forgiveness?

bbbbbbb said:

John 10:27-29 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

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John 6:66-67 From that time, many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?' " This Scripture tells me it IS possible to "turn back and no longer follow Him," and Jesus also asked the Twelve if they wanted to "go away as well." He would not have asked that if it were not possible for them to leave. I believe we ALL should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," as Php. 2:12 commands us to do.

ynneb said:

Most arguments here are weighted too heavily on just a few words in the Bible. I've noticed that people also place a lot of emphasis on 'their' interpretation of those few words. At one stage I would have done this myself.
Lets keep in mind that the Bible was penned by men, has many different interpretations, and books have been added and dropped throughout history. Some would say that the Bible is the inspired and infallible word of God, but I would hasten to ask which particular Bible are they talking about?
The discussion here hinges on just a few scriptures, yet truthfully, no one really knows, and it worries me those who 'think' their interpretation or idea is 'the way'

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I think the commons sense that God gave mankind and reflect family into it a Father will not toss his son into some hell camp unless the father hates you ..and that makes the problem lay with the father not the son .. he says he and Promises I will complete the work I started in you ..this scripture is not out of context and is quite clear in its intent .if we keep on the lines of Father son ..and Him completing the works and ALL GLORY TO GOD that nothing we can do to earn heaven and that its fully up to God.

Karen Reid said:

"From that time, many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?' " (John 6:66-67). This Scripture tells me it IS possible to "turn back and no longer follow Him," and Jesus also asked the Twelve if they wanted to "go away as well." He would not have asked that if it were not possible for them to leave. I believe we ALL should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," as Php. 2:12 commands us to do.

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And this has nothing to do with eternal damnation for any of them these apostles their positions are lost ..also if you have people that are going to hell forever he asks them if they want to go away as well ..without a warning that oh and btw to let you know cuz I think it would be fair ..if you leave you go to hell thats eternal ..just sayin do not be offended .. lots of things in the bible is not about a choice is made abra ca fried chicken .. you would think if people were eternally bound for hell there would of been slightly more concern from our savior ..rather than go and sin no more ..how about ok follow me now everywhere .. it does not reflect the bible this eternal hell could be yours if the price is right ..the devil lost and what after Jesus victory ..what difference came form it ? we now MAY NOT be fried in hell . no he died so we would have faith that we are brought from death to life and we are to claim this and know it.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

So are you saying once "saved" you can not choose to sin or choose to ask for forgiveness?

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we now have the will to be able to do real right and can please god ..but it is not about our eternal salvation, we have that as sons of God, it is about our rewards and loss of reward ..this is a high price to pay if you mess up , its just people do not get how horrible it would be to lose an eternal reward because of sin ..

yes we ask forgiveness for sins of course and we are made aware of what our sins are as well .when we were dead from sin we cannot please GOD we had no ability to please God and no will to do right ..we were dead in spirit ...we have been made alive in spirit now . and God will chastise us sore as is stated but it is a father to son discipline and part of his Promise to us to complete the work he started in us ..

Karen Reid said:

John 6:66-67 From that time, many of His disciples turned back and no longer followed Him. So Jesus said to the Twelve, 'Do you want to go away as well?' " This Scripture tells me it IS possible to "turn back and no longer follow Him," and Jesus also asked the Twelve if they wanted to "go away as well." He would not have asked that if it were not possible for them to leave. I believe we ALL should "work out our salvation with fear and trembling," as Php. 2:12 commands us to do.

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The preferred translation of the Greek in this instance is "work out your own salvation in respect and awe." What would they be walking away from? Answer: Following Jesus as the Jewish Messiah. What is Peter's answer to "do you want to go away, as well?" "Lord, where would we go? You have the words of life!"

We have to fear Him so that we will truly repent. If we are OSAS, it's wishy washy, sin becomes no big deal. I belive God thinks it's a big deal. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

jason_delisle said:

When you were a child, did you love and fear you father? Yes, I would love someone I feared. Because, just like my father, the wrath of our Father is given out of love so that we will not be lost forever.

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I never feared my dad or my mom.
Click the link, fear isn't what the scriptures are actually talking about in the context of dread as we understand fear today.

ldibart said:

This idea of a golden calf is nonsense

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He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, “This is your God, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.” When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, “Tomorrow there will be a festival to the Lord .” So the next day the people rose early and sacrificed burnt offerings and presented fellowship offerings. Afterward they sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in revelry. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go down, because your people, whom you brought up out of Egypt, have become corrupt. They have been quick to turn away from what I commanded them and have made themselves an idol cast in the shape of a calf. They have bowed down to it and sacrificed to it and have said, ‘This is your God, Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt.’ “I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”
Exodus 32:4‭-‬10 NIV

Is it really nonsense? Read the scripture. Notice in bold that they were worshiping God. They weren't calling the calf "Ba'al" or "Pharoe", they were calling it the "God who brought them out of Egypt"! It wasnt that they were worshiping another god that made them guilty of idolatry, it was the fact that they reduced God to that of a man made image of him. If we accept Jesus as "savior" and deny Him as Lord, you are doing the same. You do not worship Jesus, just a man made image of Him. Its idolatry.

ldibart said:

Christians are not out to take advantage of committing sin because we think we have eternal salvation . The reason for accepting to begin with is because we are wretched dead feeling miserable eactly because of sin ..so to accept a sacrifice of forgiveness to only go out and sin makes utter nonsense ..

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I assume that this does not apply to you. However, unfortunately this happens more often that we would like. Have you ever heard of "easy believism"? It is the exact nonsense that you have described and is a direct product of OSAS.

ldibart said:

Jesus called the apostles his friends And thinking that Christs sacrifice is for all time in our lives is trusting him and having faith ..to think that he MAY save us IF we do something and continue is having way less faith in him.

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Look at everyone who the Lord was close to and called friend, even in the new testament. They all feared and reveared Him.

ldibart said:

SO what is being said is Jesus did not die on the cross for who accept that he is lord

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I ignored the rest of this paragraph because it was a strawman. However i took the liberty to bolden the key word here....Lord. "Savior" is a word that is used to describe what Jesus did...he saved us. "Lord" is a title for who Jesus "is". Yes, He saved those who believe Him to be Lord. So thus, He is their savior. If you refuse Him as your Lord, how can He then be your "savior"?

I do not know how much more clear I can be. If someone looses their salvation, it is not because of sin. It is their rejection to who Jesus truly is...your Lord. For it is written:

“No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other.
Matthew 6:24 NIV

So if you do not die to self and submit to His Lordship, you reject Jesus as the "master" in your life so you "hate and despise" Jesus and turned Him away for a man made "golden calf" Jesus.

1John2:4 said:

We have to fear Him so that we will truly repent. If we are OSAS, it's wishy washy, sin becomes no big deal. I belive God thinks it's a big deal. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

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Sin becomes a very big deal as we are beaten sore by God as we lose rewards as well ..I am unsure why one can think that Christ destroyed sin and devil on the cross states that He will finish the works he started in us ..that is a promise and one we should believe .. there is no will finish the works as long as this or that ..he works on us no matter where we are and will complete the works in us IF he started them ..in order for him to start we must be saved we accept him truly ..and sin Is ALWAYS a big deal you do not do them ..

DoubtfulSalvation said:

Thanks so much for this post. It proves that the Bible is poorly written and supports the idea that it probably isn't divinely inspired. 100000000 scriptures support one belief and 23852835283509832502938509283523098 verses that support the other opinion.

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Au-Contraire!

It means NO such thing. EVERY one who has ever lived and just about every thing else, is a product of truths, half truths and lies. This goes for YOU, me and all other people AND most other things like books.

ALL bibles contain errors. So do ALL "Torah's" and "Quaran's".

But they ALL contain absolute truths as well. Because a man is inspired to write something by Jesus (God Almighty manifest IN the flesh-1 Timothy 3:16) does NOT mean that the same man is not also inspired to write some things in the SAME writing that in error.

Consider this:

1. You will never understand Heat until you have experienced Cold.

2. You will never appreciate Light until you have experienced Darkness.

3. You will never understand Good until you have experienced Evil.

And

4. You will NEVER understand bible "truths" until you have understood bible "errors".

Oh indeed yes. IE:

Deuteronomy 24:1 is inspired by satan; but Mathew 19:3 was truth because Jesus said that that verse was "NOT so from the beginning".

Mathew 1:1 contains two Satan-inspired lies, and one Jesus inspired truth. IE: There is NO "genealogy" of Jesus because He was God and Mary was a virgin-virgins cannot create "Genes". Thus Jesus was NOT the "son" of David. BUT David WAS the son (14 Generations removed) of "Abraham". Jesus rebukes Mathew 1:1 in Mathew 22:45! Oh indeed He did!

James was inspired by satan when he said, "Faith without works is dead"; and Paul was inspired by Jesus to say, "It is faith that ye are saved and NOT of works, lest any man should boast". Since Jesus was God, Paul was right. James was wrong.

Hebrews 10:26 calls Jesus a Liar in John 10:28 and Mark 3:28 and Mark 3:29. So which one is true. The answer is obvious.

Etc. etc. and etc!

Anyone who truly seeks truth, can find enumerable examples of truths AND lies, in ALL so-called "scripture"; because ALL bibles contain errors inspired by satan; that are ALWAYS refuted by truths inspired by Jesus. The problem is: NO one can discern this with any credibility, UNLESS they have sought wisdom from Jesus. Since few do, satan has infiltrated the entire world of Christianity with lies that they believe are true.

Worse; Even when they are shown the many real contradictions; satan inspires them to rationalize the stark contradictions into perfect agreement. Like saying, "White and black are the same color; because they really mean the same thing". IE: satan puts in our minds that the bible MUST be error free and infallible because it was inspired by God. Then they quote 2 Timothy 3:16 to prove that ALL scripture is inspired by God. But there is NO credible proof on this planet that Paul was correct. Etc. So Christians, like "Jews" and "muslims" believe that their scriptures are inerrant, but they are not; even though they all contain truths too.

Only a blind person does not see this.

May Jesus bless you and yours always,

patdee

ldibart said:

Yes and just like a father you would worry about him murdering you and casting you into a furnace if you did not obey him ..see this what I cannot get you all compare GOD as a father yet in this comparison you then turn him into a wicked father that will lob you into hell ...

because you did not do a b c and d ..this is a bunch of bullocks ..he is said to chastise his sons this is to discipline us for ust to grow as part of the promise that he will complete what he started in us .. if we are sons we have NO FEAR of hell ...we the apostles state he is our father our father would not take the children and toss them into hell this is quite evil of a thought ..so a father is not going to cast his sons or daughters in a firey pit.

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And if your father was a King (or shall we say King of Kings) and the penalty for a crime was " casting you into a furnace", as a father he would cast whatever wrath he had at you out of love to make sure you do not commit that crime. However, should you ever choose to commit that crime, a king must uphold the law of the country and will be forced to throw his own child into a furnace.

As our heavenly Father, God does not want anyone to perish (2 Peter 3:9). But as Lord, He must perish those whom He loves because they choose to reject Him, His Lordship, and His commandments. Not because of their sin, rather because they do not love God. They love a man made, "golden calf" image of God...but not God. For it is written:

"“If you love me, keep my commands. Whoever has my commands and keeps them is the one who loves me. The one who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love them and show myself to them.” Jesus replied, “Anyone who loves me will obey my teaching. My Father will love them, and we will come to them and make our home with them. Anyone who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
John 14:15‭, ‬21‭-‬21‭, ‬23‭-‬24 NIV

1John2:4 said:

We have to fear Him so that we will truly repent. If we are OSAS, it's wishy washy, sin becomes no big deal. I belive God thinks it's a big deal. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom!

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I don't know a single Christian who says that OSAS is wishy-washy / no big deal. On the contrary, sin is the source of grief in the lives of most Christians who admit it. Some confess their grief in prayer, some to another Christian or Christians. I had a Christian lady cry out in agony to me, "I have a secret sin!" My response: "No sins are secret. They are all well-known to your Savior. Confess that sin; rejoice in His forgiveness." I, personally, could not make it through the day if I did not consciously, sincerely, repent. 1 John 1:9 is the key.

Winken said:

I don't know a single Christian who says that OSAS is wishy-washy / no big deal. On the contrary, sin is the source of grief in the lives of most Christians who admit it. Some confess their grief in prayer, some to another Christian or Christians. I had a Christian lady cry out in agony to me, "I have a secret sin!" My response: "No sins are secret. They are all well-known to your Savior. Confess that sin; rejoice in His forgiveness." I, personally, could not make it through the day if I did not consciously, sincerely, repent. 1 John 1:9 is the key.

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And yet, if you did not repent, would you think if you died in the next second after sinning that you'd go to Hell?

aiki said:

Imagine a four-way stop. One driver comes to the intersection and, as his is habit, just slows down and bit and rolls right through the stop sign, ignoring all the other drivers who've arrived at the intersection before him. As far as he's concerned, a stop sign doesn't really mean, "Come to a complete halt and wait your turn to continue through the intersection." It means to him, "Slow down a bit and make sure you can get across the intersection ahead of the other cars." A second driver arrives at the intersection and he interprets the stop sign to mean, "If you don't hurry and dart into the intersection before the other cars arriving at the intersection do, you'll have to wait for them." So, he doesn't even slow down but guns his engine and shoots across the intersection, nearly causing an accident. A third driver sees the four-way stop and well before the intersection screeches to a halt and then, very slowly, begins to creep forward to the edge of it. He interprets the stop sign to mean, "Danger! The stop sign is just a very loosely-interpreted traffic control device that causes accidents. Be very careful." Each driver has a different interpretation of the sign. Does this mean the sign is ambiguous or vague? Does it mean the sign is totally open to any and every interpretation? Of course not. There is no ambiguity in the sign; it's meaning is simple, straightforward and clear. The issues with interpretation don't lie with the sign but with the readers of it. So, too, with most of the contents of the Bible. The majority of Scripture is simple and straightforward in its meaning. Readers may have varying interpretations of it, but as in the example of the intersection, this is a problem with the readers not with what they read in the Bible.

Selah.

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As alamalakam to you too. This was a nice little story, but doesn't defend the Bible's inability to convey it's most important message "salvation". The road is probably so narrow, because no one knows how to properly get there. Choose the wrong one and it's hell for you buddy!

Winken said:

The preferred translation of the Greek in this instance is "work out your own salvation in respect and awe."

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I am curious to see where you get that. Because the greek words for fear was G5401. phobos fob'-os from a primary phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright:--be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

And the word used for "trembling" was G5156. tromos trom'-os from 5141; a "trembling", i.e. quaking with fear:--+ tremble(-ing).

jason_delisle said:

Easy there. That statement is walking on a fine line in regards to the fourm rules. Its perfectly fine to disagree but lets all remain civil. Thank you.

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Whether or not I'm being civil is up to a matter of interpretation I think. You think I'm walking a fine line and completely disagree. At least I can't go to hell if I'm wrong. Besides, I didn't insult anyone or there beliefs. Feel free to report the post if you're so inclined.

ldibart said:

lol Right, see how can we encourage others ,if the entire point is to be saved through Christ ..does encourage meant look like

"hey Roy I know you believe in Jesus and died for your sins ..but um ...ya not all of em exactly..cuz you could still go to hell especially when you swear ..you really do that way to much to be an actual christian and it is annoying to me which is why I am telling you ..oh I mean because I love and worry about you ...so make sure you keep pushing and oh please do not grow faint! ..or that could mean you are going to hell ..also remember do not do your works out of fear because working out of fear is not right those works are saying i am working to keep or earn heaven and ya thats not good either .. lol


HOW about we simply believe that if you confess that jesus is lord you are saved and sealed with the holy ghost as believing Jesus died for you is proof that God is indeed working in you! this truth is proof you are sealed with the holy ghost because only God can tell you and let GOD figure out the rest ? He is the judge we cannot even judge ourselves to heaven or hell how can even begin to judge another to that fate?

We cannot so we are to say those that confess with their mouths that jesus is lord is saved! this is our correct line of thought and heart ..anything that other than this is a judgement on someones salvation and is NOT right. This type of doctrine of lose your salvation does nothing but produces fear and works brought forth from fear ..which is unpleasing to the lord! Let the control go and the judging hearts and let GOD work in others how he wants to and at his own timing. but NO you cannot lose something you never had and if you have it he PROMISES he will do the works HE started in you not We started .so he starts it he will finish it..

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That's all well and good, but what if your wrong. This whole thread was started to espouse a works based/sinless perfection doctrine. It wouldn't surprise me if you did have to be sinless know YHWH's history for vengeance and his enjoyment of the suffering of the innocent, but that's another topic. How do you know your belief is right when there are million other verses to the contrary? That was the idea.

DoubtfulSalvation said:

The road is probably so narrow, because no one knows how to properly get there. Choose the wrong one and it's hell for you buddy!

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Scripture says clearly people refuse to look for the narrow road; or they know how, but reject it - they may have different reasons, but none , obviously , are worth losing their soul for; yet they do.