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FaithAlone said:Can a Believer Lose His/Her Salvation?
John 3:18 We are no longer judged when we accept Christ
John 5:24 We have passed out of death into life
John 6:37-40 Jesus will not cast us out. He will lose nothing. That means us.
John 10:27-30 No one (even you) can snatch you out of Gods hand
Acts13:39 Once we have accepted Christ we are free from all things
Romans 8:1 There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus
Romans 8:35-39 Nothing can separate us from the love of God
Romans 11:29 Gods calling cant be taken back
1 Corinthians 3: 9-23 vs 15-If we turn from God after we have been saved we will be saved but with very few rewards. Vs 23 We belong to Christ.
2 Corinthians 1:22 We are sealed by the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 5:17 We are a new creature in Christ. The old things have passed away Ephesians 1:13-sealed by the Spirit
Ephesians 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit for the day of redemption
Philippians 1:6 God will perfect what He started in you
Colossians 2:13&14 Christ already paid for ALL of our sins. When we accept Him as our Savior His blood covers ALL of our sins
Colossians 3:3&4 We are hidden with Christ in God. Christ is our life and will reveal us in Heaven.
Hebrews 7:25-27 He covered ALL sins when He offered Himself up on the cross Hebrews 10:10, 10:14
1 Peter 1:4&5
Jude 1:1 We are kept for Christ
So why do good if we are already saved?John 14:15 If you love Me, you will keep My commandments.
Romans 6 Should we continue in sin so that grace may abound? May it never be! 1 Corinthians 6:12 & 10:23- ALL things are lawful for us but not all are profitable.
1 Peter 2:16 Do not use your freedom as a covering for evil
If we are truly Christians then Christs love should be all the fuel we need to do good.
Orthodoxyusa said:2 Peter 2:20-22
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Forgive me...
hoser said:There is NO WHERE in scripture that says we are saved by "faith alone" except in James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Faith alone was made up by Martin Luther and was never believed in the first 1500 years.
Lynn73 said:Once again, the dog is still a dog and the sow still a sow. Is there any indication they were ever one of Christ's? His people aren't called dogs and sows. One can escape the pollution of the world and know the way of righteousnes by being around Christ or other Christians. That doesn't make them Christian. Here we have people who have knowledge about Christ, and maybe for awhile follow the Christian crowd and learn about the way of righteousness. Maybe even get outwardly cleaned up a bit for awhile. But does anything here say that they actually accepted the gospel, that they actually repented an believed on Christ? That they were born again? No it says they turned away from the way way of righteousness they were being shown and the dog went back to his vomit and the sow to her wallowing in the mire. These aren't saved people imho.
hoser said:I love it when people refer to Ephesians 2:8-9 as their "proof". Isnt' it funny that they stop reading there. Well here is what verse 10 says...
Ephesians 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.
I'll have to tell this to people until I am blue in the face I know, but Paul is NOT referring to "good works" in verses 8-9. He is referring to "works of the law" in other words the Old Testament Law, in other words the "works of the Torah", in other words "Mosaic Law". He is NOT in these verses just like he IS NOT in many places talking about "good works"!!!!! Paul dispells "works of the Torah" in verses 8-9 and then turns toward "good works" in verse 10. When all three verses are taken together what Paul is saying in simple terms is We are created in Christ Jesus to perform good works and NOT works of the Torah because your salvation is through Jesus and not the Old Covenant Law.
This has been pointed out time and time again. There is NO WHERE in scripture that says we are saved by "faith alone" except in James 2:24 You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. Faith alone was made up by Martin Luther and was never believed in the first 1500 years.
As for the rest of your post, I will not debate the unbiblical view of "OSAS" at this point. I want to ask you though, why do many many protestants NOT believe in "Once Saved Always Saved"?
SLStrohkirch said:Hey Hoser,
First of all, Lutherans do not believe in OSAS. And it is by Grace through faith that we are saved and this not of ourselves. It is the gift of God, not by works so that no one can boast. This verse says that we can not come out and say that because of a specific work that we do we will get to heaven, but rather by God's grace through faith in Christ's work on the cross. through this work we are now his workmanship and our faith mandates that Good works be done to give God the glory.
This verse as you so correctly put it does not point to faith alone but to who gets the glory for it. It is certainly not us, but God.
Melethiel said:I'm curious what the OSAS people make of these verses:
[bible]Hebrews 6:4-6[/bible]
Or even the rest of Hebrews...
hoser said:SlStrohkirch, yes I know that Lutherans do NOT believe in OSAS. That was part of my question at the end of my post. "Why do many many protestants NOT believe in OSAS?" Because I knew that Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. do not hold to that belief. I am still waiting to here the reason from OSAS believers why it is that so many of their Christian brothers and sisters do not believe in OSAS.
SLStrohkirch said:It's just that many Lutherans do not consider themselves to be protestant anymore. Many of us are very Orthodox and confessional. Some even consider us to be Catholics without papal authority.
vanshan said:No, we're the ones normally seen as Catholics without a pope! Maybe you can been seen as the most Catholic of protestants.
SLStrohkirch said:Sorry I wasn't clear about that. I meant to say that some among ourselves consider us to be Evangelical Catholics. The word "Protestant" leaves a bad taste in the mouth if you know what I mean. Luther was excommunicated for his stands against the Pope. He didn't leave voluntarily and if you look at much of his teaching it is still very Catholic in nature.
Orthodoxyusa said:"Protestant" still means protesting against Papal Authority. Why would you wish to rid yourself of this proper label?
Is it now being seen as protesting against God?
I see it as an effort toward righteousness, albeit mislead, because IMHO the Protestants should have returned to the Orthodox Church instead of attempting to "go it alone".
Forgive me...
SLStrohkirch said:I think it has more to do with our disagreement with other protestants over things like the confessions and sacraments than anything. If anything we were the "True" protestants and true Evangelicals and everyone else borrowed from us. They, however, didn't adapt our views on these things but rather came up with their own interpretations.
To understand why Luther did not establish himself with the Eastern Orthodox faith is found in the Tubingen theologians arguments. I have heard though that it had more to do with the distance from the Orthodox headquarters than it did with their theology.
hoser said:SlStrohkirch, yes I know that Lutherans do NOT believe in OSAS. That was part of my question at the end of my post. "Why do many many protestants NOT believe in OSAS?" Because I knew that Lutherans, Methodists, Anglicans, etc. do not hold to that belief. I am still waiting to here the reason from OSAS believers why it is that so many of their Christian brothers and sisters do not believe in OSAS.
Why is it also that in a number of 'traditional' churches, many people don't even bring their bibles along?
Which is why in the history of the Church we can see several cases of a minority, sometimes just a single, lone Bishop, stands up against the majority to uphold the truth.BlueRose said:So anyway, after my long winded response, I just want to say that just because a big group of people believes something, it no more makes it true than me sitting in a garage makes me a car.
BlueRose said:So when many people believe something, it must make it true? The earth must have certainly been flat then, when most of the world believed so!
As humans, we want to take the credit for a lot of stuff. How powerful is Christ's blood, may I ask? So many people think that they are somehow in charge. But where do we draw the line? At what point it someone "cut off" and no longer saved? Is it like a yo-yo.... one year saved, unsaved... saved, unsaved? I know many people who go through phases of backsliding, sometimes even throwing it aside all together for a while. To lose salvation almost makes me picture God dangling a carrot in front of us, with us chasing it around just to make sure not to lose it.
Why is it also that in a number of 'traditional' churches, many people don't even bring their bibles along? Being originally from a somewhat rural area, I would say 90% of the churches were like that. And I'm relying upon these people to fill the majority in dictating a train of thought?
Most Christians in the nation could probably be categorized as "lay people." Many read their Bible on occassion, but often the majority of what they believe has just been told to them by a pastor or two. Or they just assume something and don't really question any further. It's "logical" that turning from God would take away salvation, so why not believe it? It's also logical though, that God would not actually come to earth as a mere human to be killed. Many people haven't researched or studied the scripture very closely. Hermeneutics is what drives a person's study of the Bible--and many probably don't even know what that entails.
So anyway, after my long winded response, I just want to say that just because a big group of people believes something, it no more makes it true than me sitting in a garage makes me a car.
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