Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

[ToBeLoved]

You are trying to explain away what the text actually says whereby it no longer makes any sense. Here is what it says plainly.

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

What do you not understand about the original Greek words?

You take a translation over the original language. I think you need to do a lot better than that.

 

[ToBeLoved]

There are other people who have committed suicide because of OSAS.
Oh, and you are right. You should be speculative about a killer's faith.
Just as you should be speculative about anyone who thinks they can sin and still be saved. John says, that if you just hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). But no doubt you have some strange or odd interpretation on 1 John 3:15 that completely nulifies what it says plainly.


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I guarantee it is less than the number of people who commited suicide because they could not keep the law.

Sorry I'm not buying what you are selling. This does not logically make sense.

Your adding a bunch of stuff on top of what we were discussing. Hey, there's a squirrel!!!!

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What do you not understand about the original Greek words?

You take a translation over the original language. I think you need to do a lot better than that.

No. You are seeking to change the plain meaning of God's Word in favor of a dead language you and others have not experienced as a part of an old culture that existed back in the past. You are making guesses about what a language says to cater to your own preferred belief system (that justifies doing the wrong thing instead of the right thing with God). Saying the words "Hebrew" or "Greek" is a smokescreen to not discuss the Word of God plainly in our own language. For it is odd that our Bible in
English that refutes OSAS on practically every page would say something totally different in the Greek or Hebrew.

Jesus said beware of the Scribes. These are those individuals who tran-SCRIBED the Scriptures. Today, people just automatically accept what Bible commentators say (that cater to their beliefs) just because they appear to know Bibical Hebrew or Greek.


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[Bible Highlighter]

I guarantee it is less than the number of people who commited suicide because they could not keep the law.

Sorry I'm not buying what you are selling. This does not logically make sense.

Your adding a bunch of stuff on top of what we were discussing. Hey, there's a squirrel!!!!

I am not adding anything to our discussion of God's Word on this matter at all. It is a Biblical principle to compare the real world with what the Bible says. Jesus (Including the Canaanite woman) used what we would call a "real world example" to illustrate spiritual truth. These are called parables. In addition, in Matthew 7, Jesus warned us about false prophets (believers) and told us that we can know them by their fruits (deeds). I have yet to see anyone desire to justify in doing the wrong thing with the Biblical teaching of Conditional Salvation because it doesn't make an allowance for doing serious evils or sins with the thinking you are saved. I see people's lives being set free from being a slave to evil or sin with Conditional Salvation and not deeper into sin. Those who had a loose belief in Conditional Salvation in the past and felt trapped by their sin and ran into the arms of OSAS did not seek to overcome their sin with Jesus and by the methods given to them within their own Bibles.


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[ToBeLoved]

No. You are seeking to change the plain meaning of God's Word in favor of a dead language you and others have not experienced as a part of an old culture that existed back in the past. You are making guesses about what a language says to cater to your own preferred belief system (that justifies doing the wrong thing instead of the right thing with God). Saying the words "Hebrew" or "Greek" is a smokescreen to not discuss the Word of God plainly in our own language. For it is odd that our Bible in
English that refutes OSAS on practically every page would say something totally different in the Greek or Hebrew.

Jesus said beware of the Scribes. These are those individuals who tran-SCRIBED the Scriptures. Today, people just automatically accept what Bible commentators say (that cater to their beliefs) just because they appear to know Bibical Hebrew or Greek.
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I see that you do not realize all the online tools we have today that make looking at the original languages possible and really helpful.

That's ok though, your post tells me all that I need to know in regards to how you study God's Word and how thoroughly.

It is interesting though to note that the Bible in Greek has not changed for 2,000 years and the Hebrew OT in the same time period.

So what you think I could possibly change now, 2,000 years later is beyond me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

It is a Biblical principle to compare the real world with what the Bible says.
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Is that Biblical?

God says that His Word is Truth. Truth does not change when the 'real world' changes. That is one of your possible problems with understanding what is written.

God's Word says that it is enough to lead every person in His righteousness.

You keep your comparison's with 'the world'. I obey His Truth.

Maybe you should think about God's Word and rather than using it in personal tirades against OSAS or to talk about sin.

Just discover what God's Word is saying without the agenda of trying to make ones self correct in their beliefs.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I see that you do not realize all the online tools we have today that make looking at the original languages possible and really helpful.

Some (and not all) of these tools are translated by the use of man's interpretation that seeks to tickle the ears of the hearer and these tools do not always lead a person to follow Jesus and to get a person to obey what Jesus commanded them to do.

That's ok though, your post tells me all that I need to know in regards to how you study God's Word and how thoroughly.

It is interesting though to note that the Bible in Greek has not changed for 2,000 years and the Hebrew OT in the same time period.

You interpret the Hebrew and Greek in how you and other want to see it instead of just accepting the Word of God in how it is plainly written in our language today. Not all Hebrew and Greek scholars agree; And why should they agree. They did not grow up speaking and writing Hebrew and Greek as a part of any culture. You know English better than the Greek because you grew up in a culture that speaks English. Somebody cannot come along and say the word "dog" means "cat." You know better because that is how the culture uses that word and understands it. You did not grow up in Hebrew or Greek culture to know for sure if those words really mean what you desire them to say.

So what you think I could possibly change now, 2,000 years later is beyond me.

The Hebrew and Greek has not changed. It also perfectly lines up with what is spoken of in the English. It is how the KJV translators were able to translate the Bible we have today. They used the Hebrew and Greek to translate the language we have today. Yet, you prefer translators that say something different than what is in our English Bibles today. This is dangerous because nobody really has grown up speaking Hebrew and Greek to truly know any better. God cannot hold you accountable to His Word if you cannot truly know 100% for sure those words. If I spoke or written Hebrew or Greek to you at great length, you would be clueless. That's the problem. But you seek to go outside the plain written Word of God in our language because you do not like what it says.


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[Bible Highlighter]

Is that Biblical?

God says that His Word is Truth. Truth does not change when the 'real world' changes. That is one of your possible problems with understanding what is written.

God's Word says that it is enough to lead every person in His righteousness.

You keep your comparison's with 'the world'. I obey His Truth.

Maybe you should think about God's Word and rather than using it in personal tirades against OSAS or to talk about sin.

Just discover what God's Word is saying without the agenda of trying to make ones self correct in their beliefs.

Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples (Parables). To deny this is to deny Scripture. If OSAS is true and good, surely one could make a parable or real world example out of it. But alas, you cannot make a real world example out of OSAS. Hence, which is one of the many reasons why OSAS is not true.


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[Aldebaran]

You interpret the Hebrew and Greek in how you and other want to see it instead of just accepting the Word of God in how it is plainly written in our language today. Not all Hebrew and Greek scholars agree; And why should they agree. They did not grow up speaking and writing Hebrew and Greek as a part of any culture.

Some words in English aren't as specific as they were originally written. Did you know that our single word, "love" actually has at least 4 specific words in Greek? Greek words for love - Wikipedia

Sometimes we need to look at the Greek or Hebrew words to get a better understanding of what was actually meant when originally written.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Some words in English aren't as specific as they were originally written. Did you know that our single word, "love" actually has at least 4 specific words in Greek? Greek words for love - Wikipedia

Sometimes we need to look at the Greek or Hebrew words to get a better understanding of what was actually meant when originally written.

You really didn't grow up in Biblical times to confirm such a thing as being true. Also, you didn't repent by hearing the Greek. That's the problem. For example: If you taught a class on the Bible only in the Greek to people without using any words in English to teach them, they would not be able to understand you. If you (being the teacher) decided to explain what the Bible says to them in Greek (using English) and they are totally without any knowledge of God's Word, you can make them believe whatever you want them to believe because they would not have a way of truly verifying for themselves quickly what the Greek says. Sure, some of them may be savy enough to go to BlueLetterBible (later on if they are smart with the internet), but they are going to get a wide range definitions and be in confusion still. Also, James Strong and his buddies were not inspired by God to re-interpret the Bible for us. The Bible was preserved in our language today. If it wasn't, then Christ cannot hold us accountable to His words according to John 12:48. For Jesus says,

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
(John 12:48).

How can Christ's words judge us on the last day if we are not 100% without excuse in knowing what those words actually are? God is not complicated. It's why God was able to easily communicate to everyone using their OWN language in Acts chapter 2. Nowhere will you find in God's Word where we have to go back to study some ancient hidden language in order to understand God. "Yea, you shall not surely die." The devil called God's Word or Command into doubt or question in Genesis 3:4. That is where it starts. Did God really say that in His Word?

"...when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe." (1 Thessalonians 2:13).


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[Bible Highlighter]

The poor man who only has the Bible in English and does not have access to the internet or to other biblical resources is going to be condemned for not truly knowing what God's Word says because He does not have access to the Hebrew and Greek. Too bad for him. He is poor. But Jesus said, "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5).

Jesus said, "beware of the Scribes." (Luke 20:46). The scribes are those who trans-SCRIBED the Scriptures. These are the Bible scholars of our day.

Think about it.

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[ToBeLoved]

Some (and not all) of these tools are translated by the use of man's interpretation that seeks to tickle the ears of the hearer and these tools do not always lead a person to follow Jesus and to get a person to obey what Jesus commanded them to do.



You interpret the Hebrew and Greek in how you and other want to see it instead of just accepting the Word of God in how it is plainly written in our language today. Not all Hebrew and Greek scholars agree; And why should they agree. They did not grow up speaking and writing Hebrew and Greek as a part of any culture. You know English better than the Greek because you grew up in a culture that speaks English. Somebody cannot come along and say the word "dog" means "cat." You know better because that is how the culture uses that word and understands it. You did not grow up in Hebrew or Greek culture to know for sure if those words really mean what you desire them to say.



The Hebrew and Greek has not changed. It also perfectly lines up with what is spoken of in the English. It is how the KJV translators were able to translate the Bible we have today. They used the Hebrew and Greek to translate the language we have today. Yet, you prefer translators that say something different than what is in our English Bibles today. This is dangerous because nobody really has grown up speaking Hebrew and Greek to truly know any better. God cannot hold you accountable to His Word if you cannot truly know 100% for sure those words. If I spoke or written Hebrew or Greek to you at great length, you would be clueless. That's the problem. But you seek to go outside the plain written Word of God in our language because you do not like what it says.


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There is no conspiracy in 2,000 year old Greek NT or 2,300 year old Hebrew OT.

Just know there are more thorough ways to study than what you have been using and let us leave it at that. I have other conversations going on.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Jesus illustrated spiritual truth by real world examples (Parables). To deny this is to deny Scripture. If OSAS is true and good, surely one could make a parable or real world example out of it. But alas, you cannot make a real world example out of OSAS. Hence, which is one of the many reasons why OSAS is not true.


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Jesus is God, God knows how to tell Truth in parables. Other people, not so much.

 

[ToBeLoved]

The poor man who only has the Bible in English and does not have access to the internet or to other biblical resources is going to be condemned for not truly knowing what God's Word says because He does not have access to the Hebrew and Greek. Too bad for him. He is poor. But Jesus said, "Hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith, and heirs of the kingdom which he hath promised to them that love him?" (James 2:5).

Jesus said, "beware of the Scribes." (Luke 20:46). The scribes are those who trans-SCRIBED the Scriptures. These are the Bible scholars of our day.

Think about it.

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We can all make excuses about things, but saying that the original Bible was 'transcribed' incorrectly is starting to sound a little weak because it does not match your theology.

There is a Christian History subforum that you may enjoy.

Maybe one's theology needs to change to match the Bible.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Jesus is God, God knows how to tell Truth in parables. Other people, not so much.

The Canaanite woman was able to expound upon Jesus's parable with a parable of her own. So this means other people can do so, as well. So your statement here is not true.

Oh, and yes. Jesus is God. But Jesus says, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? (Luke 6:46).


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[Bible Highlighter]

We can all make excuses about things, but saying that the original Bible was 'transcribed' incorrectly is starting to sound a little weak because it does not match your theology.

There is a Christian History subforum that you may enjoy.

Maybe one's theology needs to change to match the Bible.

I am not saying that the Hebrew and Greek were incorrectedly transcribed in every case. I believe God's Word was preserved perfectly in the English for today. This clearly happened because it was transcribed. The point I was getting at is that the popular scribes of our day (and not the translators of the KJV) are not always correct in their interpretations of the Hebrew and Greek because of their own personal beliefs that are biased.


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[Bible Highlighter]

There is no conspiracy in 2,000 year old Greek NT or 2,300 year old Hebrew OT.

Just know there are more thorough ways to study than what you have been using and let us leave it at that. I have other conversations going on.

I believe God's Word has been preserved today. So that means there is a line of perfect translations. I believe the Word of God existed perfectly thru out time in Hebrew, Greek, Latin, and English. But to assume that devil does not seek to corrupt God's perfect words is presumptious. Especially when not all Bible translations agree and not all Bible scholars agree. In other words, I believe God's Word (since it was first written down) has always perfectly existed amongst corrupt manuscripts and among corrupt translators. The devil seeks to attack God's Word. Topics like Jesus being God and living holy are some of the more popular topics that are attacked or corrupted in God's Word.


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[Aldebaran]

I am not saying that the Hebrew and Greek were incorrectedly transcribed in every case. I believe God's Word was preserved perfectly in the English for today. This clearly happened because it was transcribed. The point I was getting at is that the popular scribes of our day (and not the translators of the KJV) are not always correct in their interpretations of the Hebrew and Greek because of their own personal beliefs that are biased.

There are times when we can get a more accurate understanding of the Word by reading the Greek or Hebrew words. For example. In John 21:15, Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love Me?" and Peter answered "Yes Lord. You know that I love you". Sounds pretty straightforward in English, right? But there's more to it if you look at the original Greek words:

When Jesus asked Peter if he "loved" Him, He used the word "agape", which is a godly type of love. When Peter answered that he did, he used the word "Phileo" which means "I have affection for you", which is more of a brotherly type of love. The second time Jesus asked the same question and got the same answer. The third time He asked, He asked using the "phileo" word instead of "agape".

How would we know this if we didn't look at the Greek and relied only on the English translation, which simply uses the word "love" in all 6 instances?

 

[ToBeLoved]

There are times when we can get a more accurate understanding of the Word by reading the Greek or Hebrew words. For example. In John 21:15, Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love Me?" and Peter answered "Yes Lord. You know that I love you". Sounds pretty straightforward in English, right? But there's more to it if you look at the original Greek words:

When Jesus asked Peter if he "loved" Him, He used the word "agape", which is a godly type of love. When Peter answered that he did, he used the word "Phileo" which means "I have affection for you", which is more of a brotherly type of love. The second time Jesus asked the same question and got the same answer. The third time He asked, He asked using the "phileo" word instead of "agape".

How would we know this if we didn't look at the Greek and relied only on the English translation, which simply uses the word "love" in all 6 instances?

I see that you do understand that the original language many times helps us clarify and understand better.

Perfect example with the world 'love'.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

There are times when we can get a more accurate understanding of the Word by reading the Greek or Hebrew words. For example. In John 21:15, Jesus asked Peter, "Do you love Me?" and Peter answered "Yes Lord. You know that I love you". Sounds pretty straightforward in English, right? But there's more to it if you look at the original Greek words:

When Jesus asked Peter if he "loved" Him, He used the word "agape", which is a godly type of love. When Peter answered that he did, he used the word "Phileo" which means "I have affection for you", which is more of a brotherly type of love. The second time Jesus asked the same question and got the same answer. The third time He asked, He asked using the "phileo" word instead of "agape".

How would we know this if we didn't look at the Greek and relied only on the English translation, which simply uses the word "love" in all 6 instances?

In most cases, the context determines the type of love being spoken about. Oh, and yes. This is old news for me. I am aware of the different Greek words on love and I have done Greek studies before. But again, you do not need to know this in the Greek because the context in English helps you to determine what kind of "love" the Bible is talking about. For example: I can say that,

"The dog's bark could be heard all the way down the street, He scratched his paws against the bark of tree at the squirrel up in the tree (hoping to get the little guy)."​

As you can see there are two words spelled as "bark" but yet they have two different meanings. These are called homonyms and they do exist in the Bible (as I am sure you aware of).

Anyways, Pastor Mike Hoggard used to study the Greek because he went to Bible school. He makes a good case in his videos for how just having a KJV Bible in English is all you need to understand God and His plan for your life. This is a guy who was into the whole idea that you cannot understand the Bible without studying the Greek, but he later came to the conclusion that you do not even need to know Greek to understand the Bible. Check out his videos on YouTube. He is very knowledgeable Pastor.


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