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Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

stuart lawrence

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Purgatory isn't really even on the agenda IMO. I'm certainly not a RC and am not promoting Purgatory. So I'm not sure why you even mentioned it. :scratch:


Rom 8 certainly agrees with me that no one has a saved body yet. I am curious as to whether you believe your resurrected earthly body goes to heaven? And if it does, then what saving action brought that to pass. You also haven't told us the difference between the saving of spirit and soul, and how that all ties in scripturally to the two opposing positions of 'OSAS' and 'Conditional salvation'.
All you need to know regarding purgatory is, the human body does not enter heaven, and you sin in that body. Therefore, your body does not need to be purged to enter heaven
 
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stuart lawrence

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And so once again, the point us completely ignored

If you truly love God, you could not possibly view the removal of a law of righteousness as an excuse to sin as much as you want.

All we get continually is Gal2:17 raised as a so called excuse to live in sin by people who believe in eternal security.
And this, though it has been repeatedly pointed out that verse refers to new converts who are being justified in respect of crossing over from being a slave of sin to a slave of righteousness

Would someone who in their heart wants to obey Gods laws continually distort a verse, once shown the truth of it to defend their position?
 
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stuart lawrence

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Purgatory isn't really even on the agenda IMO. I'm certainly not a RC and am not promoting Purgatory. So I'm not sure why you even mentioned it. :scratch:


Rom 8 certainly agrees with me that no one has a saved body yet. I am curious as to whether you believe your resurrected earthly body goes to heaven? And if it does, then what saving action brought that to pass. You also haven't told us the difference between the saving of spirit and soul, and how that all ties in scripturally to the two opposing positions of 'OSAS' and 'Conditional salvation'.
Sorry, I'm sure Jason will testify I have told him more than once I dont discuss osas, so cannot answer that question.
According to Paul:

But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit I alive because of righteousness
Rom8:10

If your spirit is alive because of righteous your soul is saved

If you want to get anymore technical than that, please speak to a scholar or theologian about the subject!
 
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Sorry, I'm sure Jason will testify I have told him more than once I dont discuss osas, so cannot answer that question.
"Can not answer" or 'will not answer'??? You did look at the name of this thread before you got in, I hope.

If your spirit is alive because of righteous your soul is saved

If you want to get anymore technical than that, please speak to a scholar or theologian about the subject!
No I don't need a scholar or theologian answer, but your 'opinion' falls pretty short, I gotta admit. Especially since the verse says nothing to support your conclusion.

Oh well, it's still possible for you to learn by just reading then. :wave:

JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Do you notice that the 'sinners erring from the truth' are BRETHREN. That would be Christians in my book...the bible. People whose spirits are already regenerated/saved making them "Brethren", with some soul salvation problems you apparently don't know about. Oh, and who's saving those souls, according to this scripture? Apparently not Jesus. But then, there isn't a verse in the bible that says Jesus saves souls. Happy hunting.
 
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stuart lawrence

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"Can not answer" or 'will not answer'??? You did look at the name of this thread before you got in, I hope.

No I don't need a scholar or theologian answer, but your 'opinion' falls pretty short, I gotta admit. Especially since the verse says nothing to support your conclusion.

Oh well, it's still possible for you to learn by just reading then. :wave:

JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Do you notice that the 'sinners erring from the truth' are BRETHREN. That would be Christians in my book...the bible. People whose spirits are already regenerated/saved making them "Brethren", with some soul salvation problems you apparently don't know about. Oh, and who's saving those souls, according to this scripture? Apparently not Jesus. But then, there isn't a verse in the bible that says Jesus saves souls. Happy hunting.
Well please explain to me where I have erred according to scripture.
I'm all ears, eagerly waiting for you to share
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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There isn't much I can say that wasn't covered above, but here is what I believe.

I believe in eternal security. I would rather call it that as opposed to (OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved). OSAS has a negative stereotype attached to it. And eternal security I believe fits the issue at hand more securely. Here are some points as to why without going indepth because so many have done so already, or maybe whenever I have more time to do so.

1. If I cannot do any "GOOD" works to gain my salvation, I cannot do any "BAD" works to lose my salvation. If salvation were conditioned on works Ephesians chapter 2 shouldn't have been written and in Romans 10 you think Apostle Paul (who murdered Christians for a living and wrote 2/3rd's of the NT) would have mentioned something about 'keeping' salvation by works in relation to salvation if it were important. I have seen some say, if a person murders weekly then they aren't saved but we must remember King David was called by the mouth of God, a man after Gods own heart yet he willfully sinned by murdering Uriah (even making him drunk to try to manipulate him to sex with his wife to cover up David's sin) due to his adulterous love affair with Bathsheba his wife. Now, if King David were alive today and we didn't know he was King David, we would deem him a man not saved yet by God's mouth was called righteous. Just because a Christian sins no matter how heinous doesn't mean they get away scot free, there are consequences to sin. If I commit adultery against my wife, should I be surprised if she divorces me? If I murder, should I be surprised I go to prison and see the families of the deceased mourn over what I did? Ones actions or sin does not determine salvation.

2. If we could lose our salvation, that makes Christ atonement on the Cross partial and not full. Christ fully atoned for the sins of the world, hence, John the Baptist said, "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world." 2000 years ago Christ looked into the future and died for me, thereby forgiving me of all my sins. If He did not atone for all of our sins then His death really is pointless because we would remain in the same boat as the children of Israel: having our past / present sins forgiven and future sins are not atoned for until another sacrifice is made. Christ either fully atoned for sin or didn't - but He did thereby we are sealed by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

3. Sin or Grace more powerful? The Bible says that Grace is greater than our sin. If we can lose our salvation by our sins then sin becomes more powerful than God's grace. Basically, we are saying God's blood atonement through Jesus Christ isn't powerful enough to forgive sin but it requires the blood PLUS something. No, let us take the Bible at face value: grace is greater than our sin. Anyone can spend all day focusing on how bad we are, but tell a man how to walk in the Spirit or show him how to just TRUST JESUS CHRIST as being ENOUGH for us. It is HIS perfection, HIS righteousness, HIS holiness that makes us fit for heaven. Not by our performance rating like a Grammy Award.

4. Blood bought cannot be undone, if it could be then the Jews should have accepted Judas's blood money back. They didn't accept it, why? The Jews knew that once blood was shed, once it was spilled it couldn't be undone. Christians saying that we can lose salvation is like saying Jesus didn't really shed His blood for us. We then become like the disciples, "Oh ye of little faith." It is not a matter of doing, but a matter of believing HIS FULL PROVISION FOR YOUR SIN! AMEN! HALLELUJAH! GLORY TO GOD! =]

I hope everyone has a blessed day, again. I don't want to cause any controversy, but this is just what I believe. Hope it helps someone. God Bless.
 
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stuart lawrence

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There isn't much I can say that wasn't covered above, but here is what I believe.

I believe in eternal security. I would rather call it that as opposed to (OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved). OSAS has a negative stereotype attached to it. And eternal security I believe fits the issue at hand more securely. Here are some points as to why without going indepth because so many have done so already, or maybe whenever I have more time to do so.

1. If I cannot do any "GOOD" works to gain my salvation, I cannot do any "BAD" works to lose my salvation. If salvation were conditioned on works Ephesians chapter 2 shouldn't have been written and in Romans 10 you think Apostle Paul (who murdered Christians for a living and wrote 2/3rd's of the NT) would have mentioned something about 'keeping' salvation by works in relation to salvation if it were important. I have seen some say, if a person murders weekly then they aren't saved but we must remember King David was called by the mouth of God, a man after Gods own heart yet he willfully sinned by murdering Uriah (even making him drunk to try to manipulate him to sex with his wife to cover up David's sin) due to his adulterous love affair with Bathsheba his wife. Now, if King David were alive today and we didn't know he was King David, we would deem him a man not saved yet by God's mouth was called righteous. Just because a Christian sins no matter how heinous doesn't mean they get away scot free, there are consequences to sin. If I commit adultery against my wife, should I be surprised if she divorces me? If I murder, should I be surprised I go to prison and see the families of the deceased mourn over what I did? Ones actions or sin does not determine salvation.

2. If we could lose our salvation, that makes Christ atonement on the Cross partial and not full. Christ fully atoned for the sins of the world, hence, John the Baptist said, "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world." 2000 years ago Christ looked into the future and died for me, thereby forgiving me of all my sins. If He did not atone for all of our sins then His death really is pointless because we would remain in the same boat as the children of Israel: having our past / present sins forgiven and future sins are not atoned for until another sacrifice is made. Christ either fully atoned for sin or didn't - but He did thereby we are sealed by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

3. Sin or Grace more powerful? The Bible says that Grace is greater than our sin. If we can lose our salvation by our sins then sin becomes more powerful than God's grace. Basically, we are saying God's blood atonement through Jesus Christ isn't powerful enough to forgive sin but it requires the blood PLUS something. No, let us take the Bible at face value: grace is greater than our sin. Anyone can spend all day focusing on how bad we are, but tell a man how to walk in the Spirit or show him how to just TRUST JESUS CHRIST as being ENOUGH for us. It is HIS perfection, HIS righteousness, HIS holiness that makes us fit for heaven. Not by our performance rating like a Grammy Award.

4. Blood bought cannot be undone, if it could be then the Jews should have accepted Judas's blood money back. They didn't accept it, why? The Jews knew that once blood was shed, once it was spilled it couldn't be undone. Christians saying that we can lose salvation is like saying Jesus didn't really shed His blood for us. We then become like the disciples, "Oh ye of little faith." It is not a matter of doing, but a matter of believing HIS FULL PROVISION FOR YOUR SIN! AMEN! HALLELUJAH! GLORY TO GOD! =]

I hope everyone has a blessed day, again. I don't want to cause any controversy, but this is just what I believe. Hope it helps someone. God Bless.
One of the best posts I've read on the internet.
God bless
 
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There isn't much I can say that wasn't covered above, but here is what I believe.

I believe in eternal security. I would rather call it that as opposed to (OSAS - Once Saved Always Saved). OSAS has a negative stereotype attached to it. And eternal security I believe fits the issue at hand more securely. Here are some points as to why without going indepth because so many have done so already, or maybe whenever I have more time to do so.

1. If I cannot do any "GOOD" works to gain my salvation, I cannot do any "BAD" works to lose my salvation. If salvation were conditioned on works Ephesians chapter 2 shouldn't have been written and in Romans 10 you think Apostle Paul (who murdered Christians for a living and wrote 2/3rd's of the NT) would have mentioned something about 'keeping' salvation by works in relation to salvation if it were important. I have seen some say, if a person murders weekly then they aren't saved but we must remember King David was called by the mouth of God, a man after Gods own heart yet he willfully sinned by murdering Uriah (even making him drunk to try to manipulate him to sex with his wife to cover up David's sin) due to his adulterous love affair with Bathsheba his wife. Now, if King David were alive today and we didn't know he was King David, we would deem him a man not saved yet by God's mouth was called righteous. Just because a Christian sins no matter how heinous doesn't mean they get away scot free, there are consequences to sin. If I commit adultery against my wife, should I be surprised if she divorces me? If I murder, should I be surprised I go to prison and see the families of the deceased mourn over what I did? Ones actions or sin does not determine salvation.

2. If we could lose our salvation, that makes Christ atonement on the Cross partial and not full. Christ fully atoned for the sins of the world, hence, John the Baptist said, "Behold, the Lamb of God which taketh away the sins of the world." 2000 years ago Christ looked into the future and died for me, thereby forgiving me of all my sins. If He did not atone for all of our sins then His death really is pointless because we would remain in the same boat as the children of Israel: having our past / present sins forgiven and future sins are not atoned for until another sacrifice is made. Christ either fully atoned for sin or didn't - but He did thereby we are sealed by the Blood of Jesus Christ.

3. Sin or Grace more powerful? The Bible says that Grace is greater than our sin. If we can lose our salvation by our sins then sin becomes more powerful than God's grace. Basically, we are saying God's blood atonement through Jesus Christ isn't powerful enough to forgive sin but it requires the blood PLUS something. No, let us take the Bible at face value: grace is greater than our sin. Anyone can spend all day focusing on how bad we are, but tell a man how to walk in the Spirit or show him how to just TRUST JESUS CHRIST as being ENOUGH for us. It is HIS perfection, HIS righteousness, HIS holiness that makes us fit for heaven. Not by our performance rating like a Grammy Award.

4. Blood bought cannot be undone, if it could be then the Jews should have accepted Judas's blood money back. They didn't accept it, why? The Jews knew that once blood was shed, once it was spilled it couldn't be undone. Christians saying that we can lose salvation is like saying Jesus didn't really shed His blood for us. We then become like the disciples, "Oh ye of little faith." It is not a matter of doing, but a matter of believing HIS FULL PROVISION FOR YOUR SIN! AMEN! HALLELUJAH! GLORY TO GOD! =]

I hope everyone has a blessed day, again. I don't want to cause any controversy, but this is just what I believe. Hope it helps someone. God Bless.

The OSAS Proponent believes they can live in sin and do horrible things and still be saved. I remember talking with an OSAS believer in person who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would still be saved while doing so. If so then we must claim that men like Hitler could be saved in the moment of his killing the Jews only if he had a belief alone on Jesus. So the claim (by another poster here) that the OSAS Proponent has surrendered their life to Christ is simply not true. The OSAS Proponent (of which is not news for me) believes that sin only causes problems for the believer here in this life and it does not effect their right standing with God. God will reward the OSAS Proponent with Heaven despite what evil they do here. But if this is true, then God would have to agree with their sin in order to save them in the afterlife because they also believe sin is what separates the wicked from God in the afterlife. Why doesn't God just punish an unbeliever here in this life for not believing in Jesus and just force save them to believe in Jesus after they die? Does a belief on Jesus really make a sinning believer a changed and better person? Will God remove a believer's drug addiction or adulterous habits from them in Heaven? Why doesn't God just change everyone after they die? Why doesn't God just force save everyone if that is the case? Also, the moral implications of a belief that says you can sin as much as you want with the thinking you are saved will naturally lead a person to live like the devil and it will not lead a person to focus on the many verses in the Bible that teach us to obey God and to live holy (Which pretty much negates a good majority of what the New Testament teaches; How so? Just sit down and start writing down all the commands in the New Testament. Then write every place you can see in the New Testament that talks about holiness, and sanctification, etc.). Anyways, a believer will be led into a lifestyle of sin as a result of having an OSAS type belief (that says you can sin and still be saved). This is obvious by men like George Sodini who was a huge OSAS proponent and yet he ended up becoming a mass murderer whereby he took his own life. George even wrote a suicide letter in saying how he would be saved (despite his evil), too.


By what you said here, this makes me believe you are not in disagreement with George Sodini and you believe he is saved (Which is wrong because it makes it seem like God is rewarding somebody with Heaven despite their evil). This belief is wrong because it ignores everything we know about morality (or God's goodness). Paul says, "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Yet, this is exactly what OSAS is proposing. You can do evil and good will come (Heaven will be for you) despite that. Romans 3:8 is in context to Romans 3:1 that is talking about the Jew and circumcision (Which is a part of the Old Covenant Law and not the New Covenant Law). The Jews were saying that the New Covenant believer was doing evil by not being circumcised. They were falsely slandering obedient and faithful believers under the New Covenant.

  1. When David’s son was taken away from David, this was not for him to think that he was just being punished here in this life alone, but it was a means to try and get David to realize that there are consequences to sin both in this life and the next life. For if sin had no consequences in the next life, then David would not have cared to repent of his sins to God in Psalms 51. He would have just lived in as much unrepentant serious sin as he wanted to. As for Romans 10: Well, when we read Romans 10, we have to understand that it is also in context to Israel (Read Romans 10:1). Why is this important? Well, if you were to read Romans 11:22 it says we Gentiles have to continue in his goodness [i.e. Christ’s goodness] otherwise we can be cut off just like the Jews or Israel. Also, let’s assume for a second that the belief that you can sin as much as you want with the thinking you are saved (with sin merely punishing you here in this life) is true. Such a doctrine would lead people to think they do not have to worry about living a holy life. For a holy life is only possible if you walk uprightly with God and not in sin. Yet, the Scriptures say, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” (Philippians 2:15). How can a believer (a son of God) shine as a light to a wicked and perverse generation if they are also wicked and perverse as the world? They short answer is that they cannot. Also, Matthew 13:41-42 says that Christ’s angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend [sin] and who do iniquity [intense sin] and cast them into the furnace of fire [i.e. the Lake of Fire]. The unprofitable servant is to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do. So this is not a nice place in Heaven.

  2. Christ’s sacrifice is applied by our walking in the light as he is in the light. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. There is nothing here about having a belief alone on Jesus.

  3. Romans 5:20 does not say that grace is greater than sin in this sense that we cannot fail the grace of God because of our sin. That is just wrong to even say that. There are those who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Also, Hebrews 12:15 says, “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”

  4. Judas could have repented towards God and been forgiven. But he didn’t do that. He committed a sin that most could not repent of (i.e. suicide). Also, again, 1 John 1:7 says the blood is applied to our sins by our walking in the light as Christ is in the light. This means we have to walk righteously for the blood to be applied. This makes sense because 1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” For obviously if the Israelites did not stay in their homes as a part of putting the blood on their doorposts, their first born children would not have been protected. They had to obey after the blood was applied in order for their children to be protected.

...
 
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WingsOfEagles07

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The OSAS Proponent believes they can live in sin and do horrible things and still be saved. I remember talking with an OSAS believer in person who admitted to me that they could mow down a crowd of people with a submachine gun and they would still be saved while doing so. If so then we must claim that men like Hitler could be saved in the moment of his killing the Jews only if he had a belief alone on Jesus. So the claim (by another poster here) that the OSAS Proponent has surrendered their life to Christ is simply not true. The OSAS Proponent (of which is not news for me) believes that sin only causes problems for the believer here in this life and it does not effect their right standing with God. God will reward the OSAS Proponent with Heaven despite what evil they do here. But if this is true, then God would have to agree with their sin in order to save them in the afterlife because they also believe sin is what separates the wicked from God in the afterlife. Why doesn't God just punish an unbeliever here in this life for not believing in Jesus and just force save them to believe in Jesus after they die? Does a belief on Jesus really make a sinning believer a changed and better person? Will God remove a believer's drug addiction or adulterous habits from them in Heaven? Why doesn't God just change everyone after they die? Why doesn't God just force save everyone if that is the case? Also, the moral implications of a belief that says you can sin as much as you want with the thinking you are saved will naturally lead a person to live like the devil and it will not lead a person to focus on the many verses in the Bible that teach us to obey God and to live holy (Which pretty much negates a good majority of what the New Testament teaches; How so? Just sit down and start writing down all the commands in the New Testament. Then write every place you can see in the New Testament that talks about holiness, and sanctification, etc.). Anyways, a believer will be led into a lifestyle of sin as a result of having an OSAS type belief (that says you can sin and still be saved). This is obvious by men like George Sodini who was a huge OSAS proponent and yet he ended up becoming a mass murderer whereby he took his own life. George even wrote a suicide letter in saying how he would be saved (despite his evil), too.


By what you said here, this makes me believe you are not in disagreement with George Sodini and you believe he is saved (Which is wrong because it makes it seem like God is rewarding somebody with Heaven despite their evil). This belief is wrong because it ignores everything we know about morality (or God's goodness). Paul says, "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Yet, this is exactly what OSAS is proposing. You can do evil and good will come (Heaven will be for you) despite that. Romans 3:8 is in context to Romans 3:1 that is talking about the Jew and circumcision (Which is a part of the Old Covenant Law and not the New Covenant Law). The Jews were saying that the New Covenant believer was doing evil by not being circumcised. They were falsely slandering obedient and faithful believers under the New Covenant.

  1. When David’s son was taken away from David, this was not for him to think that he was just being punished here in this life alone, but it was a means to try and get David to realize that there are consequences to sin both in this life and the next life. For if sin had no consequences in the next life, then David would not have cared to repent of his sins to God in Psalms 51. He would have just lived in as much unrepentant serious sin as he wanted to. As for Romans 10: Well, when we read Romans 10, we have to understand that it is also in context to Israel (Read Romans 10:1). Why is this important? Well, if you were to read Romans 11:22 it says we Gentiles have to continue in his goodness [i.e. Christ’s goodness] otherwise we can be cut off just like the Jews or Israel. Also, let’s assume for a second that the belief that you can sin as much as you want with the thinking you are saved (with sin merely punishing you here in this life) is true. Such a doctrine would lead people to think they do not have to worry about living a holy life. For a holy life is only possible if you walk uprightly with God and not in sin. Yet, the Scriptures say, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” (Philippians 2:15). How can a believer (a son of God) shine as a light to a wicked and perverse generation if they are also wicked and perverse as the world? They short answer is that they cannot. Also, Matthew 13:41-42 says that Christ’s angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend [sin] and who do iniquity [intense sin] and cast them into the furnace of fire [i.e. the Lake of Fire]. The unprofitable servant is to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do. So this is not a nice place in Heaven.

  2. Christ’s sacrifice is applied by our walking in the light as he is in the light. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. There is nothing here about having a belief alone on Jesus.

  3. Romans 5:20 does not say that grace is greater than sin in this sense that we cannot fail the grace of God because of our sin. That is just wrong to even say that. There are those who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Also, Hebrews 12:15 says, “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”

  4. Judas could have repented towards God and been forgiven. But he didn’t do that. He committed a sin that most could not repent of (i.e. suicide). Also, again, 1 John 1:7 says the blood is applied to our sins by our walking in the light as Christ is in the light. This means we have to walk righteously for the blood to be applied. This makes sense because 1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” For obviously if the Israelites did not stay in their homes as a part of putting the blood on their doorposts, their first born children would not have been protected. They had to obey after the blood was applied in order for their children to be protected.

...

Brother, you have a right to believe you can lose salvation and if you want to your whole life you can. You and I could go back and forth all day over interpretation of scripture, morality issues of sin, and the like but ultimately the Bible says, grace is greater than our sin. You wont find anywhere in the Bible where sin is so strong it can make us lose salvation. After all Solomon had 700 concubines, David committed murder, drunkenness, and adultery. Samson disobeyed God his whole life yet was used of God. Moses murdered a man. Paul who wrote the majority of the NT murdered people for a living. Yet miraculously they "made it to heaven."

We can go back and forth on supposed 'evidence' to fit our theological views as what you've proposed above:

"George Sodini
(Eternal Security Proponent - Mass Murderer and Suicide Victim). "

Just because George Sodini was a supporter of Eternal Security does not mean you can do what you want. That is where people misappropriate what "grace" is and how it is applied to the Christian life. I have no idea where people get the notion that us eternal security believers do not believe in holiness, or pure living. Grace is not to do what I want to, but it is the power to go and sin no more. Grace that is greater than sin doesn't mean commit it. It means because of its power I can overcome sin 1 John 5:5. I can give you supporters who believe you can lose it, and have "LOST" it because they committed some heinous crime. Anyone can find someone who has DONE anything. But thats why Gods grace is so scandalous, because no matter what we "DO" God's grace is always greater than our sin. Thats the good news of the Gospel and the New Covenant. We no longer focus on what we can "DO" but on what He has "DONE." Amen!

But brother, again, feel free to believe you can lose it. No one here whats to create any grudges, or contention over it. You're saved, I am saved, let us worship together the Savior who died.

Have a wonderful day.
http://eternalsecurity.us/george_sodini.htm
 
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Brother, you have a right to believe you can lose salvation and if you want to your whole life you can.

I have a right to believe that saints can fall away from the faith because that is what the Bible clearly teaches. Here is a list of verses that makes it absolutely clear that believers can fall away from the faith.

1 Samuel 16:14
1 Samuel 31:4
Ezekiel 18:24
Hebrews 3:12-14
Hebrews 4:11
Hebrews 6:4-9
Hebrews 10:26-30
Hebrews 12:15
1 Timothy 1:18-20
1 Timothy 4:1-7
Galatians 3:1-5
2 Peter 2:20-22
2 Peter 3:17
Matthew 13:18-23
1 Corinthians 10:12
2 Thessalonians 2:3

Now, do not misunderstand me, believers cannot lose their salvation (in the sense of like how one would misplace one's car keys), but they can forfeit their salvation (i.e. they can willingly throw it away by rebelling against God by sinning and refusing to repent). In fact,

Here is a list of believers who have forfeited their salvation:
And here is a list of potential fallen believers:
  • Recent Convert Who is a Potential Spiritual Leader (1 Timothy 3:6)
  • Believers Whose Seed Fell Upon the Rocks (Luke 8:13)
  • The Potential Fellow Believer Who Erred From the Truth & Was Converted Back
    (James 5:19, 20)
For Jesus is the Light and we are to shine the Light of Christ within our lives. For there are those who think they can serve Jesus and also live for oneself, sin, and evil; But this is wrong, though. "For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God" (John 3:20-21).

WingsOfEagles07 said:
You and I could go back and forth all day over interpretation of scripture, morality issues of sin, and the like but ultimately the Bible says, grace is greater than our sin.

Actually, you are taking Romans 5:20 totally out of context.

"Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound" (Romans 5:20).

Nowhere is this said to the believer in that they could sin with the thinking they could be saved. Romans 5 is talking about what Jesus done for us in regards to Justification or Initial or Ultimate Salvation. It is not talking about Sanctification or our walk with God after we accept and believe on Jesus Christ as our Savior. Paul in the next chapter says you cannot sin while under grace.

1 "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?"
(Romans 6:1-2).

Paul continues to say,
"Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof." (Romans 6:12).

"For sin shall not have dominion over you..." (Romans 6:14).

1 John 3:10 says,
"In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother."

Also, the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:12).
God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him. (Hebrews 5:9).

WingsOfEagles07 said:
You wont find anywhere in the Bible where sin is so strong it can make us lose salvation.

Then you haven't allowed all the seed of the Word of God to be sown into your heart on certain verses. For it is written,

"...whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire."
(Matthew 5:22).

"But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (Matthew 5:28-30).

"But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses." (Matthew 6:15).

"But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned." (Matthew 12:36-37).

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did itnot to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:41-46).

"For whosoever shall be ashamed of me and of my words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when he shall come in his own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels." (Luke 9:26).

"Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 John 3:15).

"For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins." (Hebrews 10:26).

"Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God." (Galatians 5:19-21).

"Repent therefore of this thy wickedness, and pray God, if perhaps the thought of thine heart may be forgiven thee." (Acts 8:22).

'If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1 John 1:9).

"But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin." (1 John 1:7).

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8).

WingsOfEagles07 said:
After all Solomon had 700 concubines,

Solomon obviously repented of this. For he concluded later (after that kind of life),

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man." (Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Hmmm, doesn't sound like a man who thought how one can sin and still be saved.

WingsOfEagles07 said:
David committed murder, drunkenness, and adultery.

And David repented of these sins in Psalms 51.
David did not continue in these sins the rest of his life.

WingsOfEagles07 said:
Samson disobeyed God his whole life yet was used of God.

God used the Pharoah of Egypt for His purposes but that does not mean the Pharoah of Egypt was saved. Some think Samson committed suicide but it was actually God who decided to answer Samson's prayer in giving him strength to destroy the temple and it was God who decided to not protect Samson supernaturally as a part of giving Samson supernatural strength again. For without God answering Samson's prayer, Samson could not have taken down that temple. But the life of Samson's sinful downfalls is nowhere glorified in Scripture in that is how we believers are supposed to treat grace as being some kind of license to sin. Yes, God can forgive his people even right up towards the end of their lives. But they cannot treat sin as if it is no big deal and think that their actions do not have any consequences. Samson learned his lesson of his bad actions by being captured, blinded, and enslaved. No doubt this led Samson to repentance.

WingsOfEagles07 said:
Moses murdered a man.

This was a part of Moses's old life and not a part of his new life. Moses no doubt repented of such a sin to God.

WingsOfEagles said:
Paul who wrote the majority of the NT murdered people for a living.

No. Paul did not murder people while he wrote the New Testament. When Paul was known as Saul he murdered Christians as a part of his old life before he became a Christian.

WingsOfEagles07 said:
Just because George Sodini was a supporter of Eternal Security does not mean you can do what you want. That is where people misappropriate what "grace" is and how it is applied to the Christian life. I have no idea where people get the notion that us eternal security believers do not believe in holiness, or pure living. Grace is not to do what I want to, but it is the power to go and sin no more. Grace that is greater than sin doesn't mean commit it. It means because of its power I can overcome sin 1 John 5:5. I can give you supporters who believe you can lose it, and have "LOST" it because they committed some heinous crime. Anyone can find someone who has DONE anything. But thats why Gods grace is so scandalous, because no matter what we "DO" God's grace is always greater than our sin. Thats the good news of the Gospel and the New Covenant. We no longer focus on what we can "DO" but on what He has "DONE." Amen!

Do you believe George Sodini was saved?
He certainly thought he was saved and he was a huge proponent of Eternal Security.




....
 
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ToBeLoved

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JAM 5:19 Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Do you notice that the 'sinners erring from the truth' are BRETHREN. That would be Christians in my book...the bible. People whose spirits are already regenerated/saved making them "Brethren", with some soul salvation problems you apparently don't know about. Oh, and who's saving those souls, according to this scripture? Apparently not Jesus. But then, there isn't a verse in the bible that says Jesus saves souls. Happy hunting.
You really butchered that verse.

The word for 'a soul' is

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Short Definition: the soul, life, self
Definition: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

Notice in the definitions that there are 5 possible meanings of that word, so let's do some more digging to try to find out which of the 5 defintions a-e.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5590: ψυχή

ψυχή, ψυχῆς, ἡ (ψύχω, to breathe, blow), from Homer down, the Sept. times too many to count for נֶפֶשׁ, occasionally also for לֵב and לֵבָב;
1. breath (Latinanima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10; of animals, Revelation 8:9 (Genesis 9:4; Genesis 35:18; ἐπιστραφήτω ψυχή τοῦ παιδαρίου, 1 Kings 17:21); so also in those passages where, in accordance with the trichotomy or threefold division of human nature by the Greeks, ἡ ψυχή; is distinguished from τό πνεῦμα (see πνευαμ, 2, p. 520a (and references under the word πνεῦμα 5)), 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12.

b. life: μέριμναν τῇ ψυχή, Matthew 6:25; Luke 12:22; τήν ψυχήν ἀγαπᾶν, Revelation 12:11; (μισεῖν, Luke 14:26); τιθέναι, John 10:11, 15, 17; John 13:37; John 15:13; 1 John 3:16; παραδιδόναι, Acts 15:26; διδόναι (λύτρον, which see), Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; ζητεῖν τήν ψυχήν τίνος (see ζητέω, 1 a.), Matthew 2:20; Romans 11:3; add, Matthew 6:25; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9; Luke 12:20, 23; Acts 20:24; Acts 27:10, 22; Romans 16:4; 2 Corinthians 1:23; Philippians 2:30; 1 Thessalonians 2:8; in the pointed aphorisms of Christ, intended to fix themselves in the minds of his hearers, the phrases εὑρίσκειν, σῴζειν, ἀπολλύναι τήν ψυχήν αὐτοῦ, etc., designate as ψυχή in one of the antithetic members the life which is lived on earth, in the other, the (blessed) life in the eternal kingdom of God: Matthew 10:39; Matthew 16:25; Mark 8:35-37; Luke 9:24, 56 Rec.; ; John 12:25; the life destined to enjoy the Messianic salvation is meant also in the following phrases ((where R. V. soul)): περιποίησις ψυχῆς, Hebrews 10:39; κτᾶσθαι τάς ψυχάς, Luke 21:19; ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν (here A. V. (not R. V.) for you; cf.

c. below), 2 Corinthians 12:15.

c. that in which there is life; a living being: ψυχή ζῶσα, a living soul, 1 Corinthians 15:45; (Revelation 16:3 R Tr marginal reading) (Genesis 2:7; plural ); πᾶσα ψυχή ζωῆς, Revelation 16:3 (G L T Tr text WH) (Leviticus 11:10); πᾶσα ψυχή, every soul, i. e. everyone, Acts 2:43; Acts 3:23; Romans 13:1 (so כָּל־נֶפֶשׁ, Leviticus 7:17 (27); ); with ἀνθρώπου added, every soul of man (אָדָם נֶפֶשׁ, Numbers 31:40, 46 (cf. 1 Macc. 2:38)), Romans 2:9. ψυχαί, souls (like the Latincapita) i. e. persons (in enumerations; cf. German Seelenzahl): Acts 2:41; Acts 7:14; Acts 27:37; 1 Peter 3:20 (Genesis 46:15, 18, 22, 26, 27; Exodus 1:5; Exodus 12:4; Leviticus 2:1; Numbers 19:11, 13, 18; (Deuteronomy 10:22); the examples from Greek authors (cf. Passow, under the word, 2, vol. ii, p. 2590b) are of a different sort (yet cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)); ψυχαί ἀνθρώπων of slaves (A. V. souls of men (R. V. with marginal reading 'Or lives')), Revelation 18:13 (so (Numbers 31:35); Ezekiel 27:13; see σῶμα, 1 c. (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 22, 7 N. 3)).

2. the soul (Latinanimus), a. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our soul, heart, etc. (R. V. almost uniformly soul); for examples from Greek writings see Passow, under the word, 2, vol. ii., p. 2589b; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 3); Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ, cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus ii, p. 901 in 3): Luke 1:46; Luke 2:35; John 10:24 (cf. αἴρω, 1 b.); Acts 14:2, 22; Acts 15:24; Hebrews 6:19; 2 Peter 2:8, 14; ἡ ἐπιθυμία τῆς ψυχῆς, Revelation 18:14; ἀνάπαυσιν ταῖς ψυχαῖς εὑρίσκειν, Matthew 11:29; ψυχή, ... ἀναπαύου, φάγε, πίε (WH brackets these three imperatives), εὐφραίνου (personification and direct address), Luke 12:19, cf. Luke 12:18 (ἡ ψυχή ἀναπαύσεται, Xenophon, Cyril 6, 2, 28; ἐυφραίνειν τήν ψυχήν, Aelian v. h. 1, 32); εὐδοκεῖ ἡ ψυχή μου (anthropopathically, of God), Matthew 12:18; Hebrews 10:38; περίλυπος ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου, Matthew 26:38; Mark 14:34; ἡ ψυχή μου τετάρακται, John 12:27; ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὑμῶν ἀκλυόμενοι (fainting in your souls (cf. ἐκλύω, 2 b.)), Hebrews 12:3; ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχή σου, with all thy soul, Matthew 22:37; (Luke 10:27 L text T Tr WH); ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ψυχῆς σου (Latinex toto animo), with (literally, from (cf. ἐκ, II. 12 b.)) all thy soul, Mark 12:30, 33 (here T WH omit; L Tr marginal reading brackets the phrase); Luke 10:27 (R G) (Deuteronomy 6:5; (Epictetus diss. 3, 22, 18 (cf. Xenophon, anab. 7, 7, 43)); Antoninus 3, 4; (especially 4, 31; 12, 29); ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχή φροντίζειν τίνος (rather, with κεχαρισθαι), Xenophon, mem. 3, 11, 10); μία ψυχή, with one soul (cf. πνεῦμα, 2, p. 520a bottom), Philippians 1:27; τοῦ πλήθους ... ἦν ἡ καρδία καί ἡ ψυχή μία, Acts 4:32 (ἐρωτηθεις τί ἐστι φίλος, ἔφη. μία ψυχή δύο σώμασιν ἐνοικουσα, (Diogenes Laërtius 5, 20 (cf. Aristotle, eth. Nic. 9, 8, 2, p. 1168b, 7; on the elliptical ἀπό μιᾶς (namely, ψυχῆς?), see ἀπό, III.)); ἐκ ψυχῆς, from the heart, heartily (Ephesians 6:6 (Tr WH with Ephesians 6:7)); Colossians 3:23 (ἐκ τῆς ψυχῆς often in Xenophon; τό ἐκ ψυχῆς πένθος, Josephus, Antiquities 17, 6, 5).

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17; ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς, James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20; σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

c. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from τό σῶμα, as the other part of human nature (so in Greek writings from Isocrates and Xenophon down; cf. examples in Passow, under the word, p. 2589{a} bottom; Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)): Matthew 10:28, cf. 4 Macc. 13:14 (it is called ἀθάνατος, Herodotus 2, 123; Plato Phaedr., p. 245 c., 246 a., others; ἄφθαρτος, Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 14; διαλυθῆναι τήν ψυχήν ἀπό τοῦ σώματος, Epictetus diss. 3, 10, 14); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul, Acts 2:27, 31 Rec.; Revelation 6:9; Revelation 20:4 (Wis. 3:1; (on the Homeric use of the word, see Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word, 3, and references at the end, also Proudfit in Bib. Sacr. for 1858, pp. 753-805)).

That is what the word 'a soul' is referring to.
 
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ToBeLoved

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George Sodini

By what you said here, this makes me believe you are not in disagreement with George Sodini and you believe he is saved (Which is wrong because it makes it seem like God is rewarding somebody with Heaven despite their evil). This belief is wrong because it ignores everything we know about morality (or God's goodness). Paul says, "And not rather, (as we be slanderously reported, and as some affirm that we say,) Let us do evil, that good may come? whose damnation is just." (Romans 3:8). Yet, this is exactly what OSAS is proposing. You can do evil and good will come (Heaven will be for you) despite that. Romans 3:8 is in context to Romans 3:1 that is talking about the Jew and circumcision (Which is a part of the Old Covenant Law and not the New Covenant Law). The Jews were saying that the New Covenant believer was doing evil by not being circumcised. They were falsely slandering obedient and faithful believers under the New Covenant.

  1. When David’s son was taken away from David, this was not for him to think that he was just being punished here in this life alone, but it was a means to try and get David to realize that there are consequences to sin both in this life and the next life. For if sin had no consequences in the next life, then David would not have cared to repent of his sins to God in Psalms 51. He would have just lived in as much unrepentant serious sin as he wanted to. As for Romans 10: Well, when we read Romans 10, we have to understand that it is also in context to Israel (Read Romans 10:1). Why is this important? Well, if you were to read Romans 11:22 it says we Gentiles have to continue in his goodness [i.e. Christ’s goodness] otherwise we can be cut off just like the Jews or Israel. Also, let’s assume for a second that the belief that you can sin as much as you want with the thinking you are saved (with sin merely punishing you here in this life) is true. Such a doctrine would lead people to think they do not have to worry about living a holy life. For a holy life is only possible if you walk uprightly with God and not in sin. Yet, the Scriptures say, “That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;” (Philippians 2:15). How can a believer (a son of God) shine as a light to a wicked and perverse generation if they are also wicked and perverse as the world? They short answer is that they cannot. Also, Matthew 13:41-42 says that Christ’s angels will gather out of HIS KINGDOM all who offend [sin] and who do iniquity [intense sin] and cast them into the furnace of fire [i.e. the Lake of Fire]. The unprofitable servant is to be cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth. Gnashing of teeth is what wolves do. So this is not a nice place in Heaven.

  2. Christ’s sacrifice is applied by our walking in the light as he is in the light. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the light as he is in the light the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. There is nothing here about having a belief alone on Jesus.

  3. Romans 5:20 does not say that grace is greater than sin in this sense that we cannot fail the grace of God because of our sin. That is just wrong to even say that. There are those who turn the grace of our God into a license for immorality (Jude 1:4). Also, Hebrews 12:15 says, “Looking diligently lest any man fail of the grace of God; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled;”

  4. Judas could have repented towards God and been forgiven. But he didn’t do that. He committed a sin that most could not repent of (i.e. suicide). Also, again, 1 John 1:7 says the blood is applied to our sins by our walking in the light as Christ is in the light. This means we have to walk righteously for the blood to be applied. This makes sense because 1 John 3:10 says, “In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” For obviously if the Israelites did not stay in their homes as a part of putting the blood on their doorposts, their first born children would not have been protected. They had to obey after the blood was applied in order for their children to be protected.

...
How do you get things so wrong every time?

You are following killers now and using that to bash OSAS? How desperate you are to win your battle that you are throwing killers and their ideas into the mix.

That is a little low.


:doh:
 
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How do you get things so wrong every time?

You are following killers now and using that to bash OSAS? How desperate you are to win your battle that you are throwing killers and their ideas into the mix.

That is a little low.

Your lack of belief in the facts does not change them.
Read up on the guy if you like.
If not, then you can ignore the truth if that makes you feel better.


...
 
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You really butchered that verse.

The word for 'a soul' is

psuché: breath, the soul
Original Word: ψυχή, ῆς, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: psuché
Phonetic Spelling: (psoo-khay')
Short Definition: the soul, life, self
Definition: (a) the vital breath, breath of life, (b) the human soul, (c) the soul as the seat of affections and will, (d) the self, (e) a human person, an individual.

Notice in the definitions that there are 5 possible meanings of that word, so let's do some more digging to try to find out which of the 5 defintions a-e.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 5590: ψυχή

ψυχή, ψυχῆς, ἡ (ψύχω, to breathe, blow), from Homer down, the Sept. times too many to count for נֶפֶשׁ, occasionally also for לֵב and לֵבָב;
1. breath (Latinanima), i. e.
a. the breath of life; the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing: Acts 20:10; of animals, Revelation 8:9 (Genesis 9:4; Genesis 35:18; ἐπιστραφήτω ψυχή τοῦ παιδαρίου, 1 Kings 17:21); so also in those passages where, in accordance with the trichotomy or threefold division of human nature by the Greeks, ἡ ψυχή; is distinguished from τό πνεῦμα (see πνευαμ, 2, p. 520a (and references under the word πνεῦμα 5)), 1 Thessalonians 5:23; Hebrews 4:12.

b. life: μέριμναν τῇ ψυχή, Matthew 6:25; Luke 12:22; τήν ψυχήν ἀγαπᾶν, Revelation 12:11; (μισεῖν, Luke 14:26); τιθέναι, John 10:11, 15, 17; John 13:37; John 15:13; 1 John 3:16; παραδιδόναι, Acts 15:26; διδόναι (λύτρον, which see), Matthew 20:28; Mark 10:45; ζητεῖν τήν ψυχήν τίνος (see ζητέω, 1 a.), Matthew 2:20; Romans 11:3; add, Matthew 6:25; Mark 3:4; Luke 6:9; Luke 12:20, 23; Acts 20:24; Acts 27:10, 22; Romans 16:4; 2 Corinthians 1:23; Philippians 2:30; 1 Thessalonians 2:8; in the pointed aphorisms of Christ, intended to fix themselves in the minds of his hearers, the phrases εὑρίσκειν, σῴζειν, ἀπολλύναι τήν ψυχήν αὐτοῦ, etc., designate as ψυχή in one of the antithetic members the life which is lived on earth, in the other, the (blessed) life in the eternal kingdom of God: Matthew 10:39; Matthew 16:25; Mark 8:35-37; Luke 9:24, 56 Rec.; ; John 12:25; the life destined to enjoy the Messianic salvation is meant also in the following phrases ((where R. V. soul)): περιποίησις ψυχῆς, Hebrews 10:39; κτᾶσθαι τάς ψυχάς, Luke 21:19; ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν (here A. V. (not R. V.) for you; cf.

c. below), 2 Corinthians 12:15.

c. that in which there is life; a living being: ψυχή ζῶσα, a living soul, 1 Corinthians 15:45; (Revelation 16:3 R Tr marginal reading) (Genesis 2:7; plural ); πᾶσα ψυχή ζωῆς, Revelation 16:3 (G L T Tr text WH) (Leviticus 11:10); πᾶσα ψυχή, every soul, i. e. everyone, Acts 2:43; Acts 3:23; Romans 13:1 (so כָּל־נֶפֶשׁ, Leviticus 7:17 (27); ); with ἀνθρώπου added, every soul of man (אָדָם נֶפֶשׁ, Numbers 31:40, 46 (cf. 1 Macc. 2:38)), Romans 2:9. ψυχαί, souls (like the Latincapita) i. e. persons (in enumerations; cf. German Seelenzahl): Acts 2:41; Acts 7:14; Acts 27:37; 1 Peter 3:20 (Genesis 46:15, 18, 22, 26, 27; Exodus 1:5; Exodus 12:4; Leviticus 2:1; Numbers 19:11, 13, 18; (Deuteronomy 10:22); the examples from Greek authors (cf. Passow, under the word, 2, vol. ii, p. 2590b) are of a different sort (yet cf. Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)); ψυχαί ἀνθρώπων of slaves (A. V. souls of men (R. V. with marginal reading 'Or lives')), Revelation 18:13 (so (Numbers 31:35); Ezekiel 27:13; see σῶμα, 1 c. (cf. Winer's Grammar, § 22, 7 N. 3)).

2. the soul (Latinanimus), a. the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our soul, heart, etc. (R. V. almost uniformly soul); for examples from Greek writings see Passow, under the word, 2, vol. ii., p. 2589b; (Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 3); Hebrew נֶפֶשׁ, cf. Gesenius, Thesaurus ii, p. 901 in 3): Luke 1:46; Luke 2:35; John 10:24 (cf. αἴρω, 1 b.); Acts 14:2, 22; Acts 15:24; Hebrews 6:19; 2 Peter 2:8, 14; ἡ ἐπιθυμία τῆς ψυχῆς, Revelation 18:14; ἀνάπαυσιν ταῖς ψυχαῖς εὑρίσκειν, Matthew 11:29; ψυχή, ... ἀναπαύου, φάγε, πίε (WH brackets these three imperatives), εὐφραίνου (personification and direct address), Luke 12:19, cf. Luke 12:18 (ἡ ψυχή ἀναπαύσεται, Xenophon, Cyril 6, 2, 28; ἐυφραίνειν τήν ψυχήν, Aelian v. h. 1, 32); εὐδοκεῖ ἡ ψυχή μου (anthropopathically, of God), Matthew 12:18; Hebrews 10:38; περίλυπος ἐστιν ἡ ψυχή μου, Matthew 26:38; Mark 14:34; ἡ ψυχή μου τετάρακται, John 12:27; ταῖς ψυχαῖς ὑμῶν ἀκλυόμενοι (fainting in your souls (cf. ἐκλύω, 2 b.)), Hebrews 12:3; ἐν ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχή σου, with all thy soul, Matthew 22:37; (Luke 10:27 L text T Tr WH); ἐξ ὅλης τῆς ψυχῆς σου (Latinex toto animo), with (literally, from (cf. ἐκ, II. 12 b.)) all thy soul, Mark 12:30, 33 (here T WH omit; L Tr marginal reading brackets the phrase); Luke 10:27 (R G) (Deuteronomy 6:5; (Epictetus diss. 3, 22, 18 (cf. Xenophon, anab. 7, 7, 43)); Antoninus 3, 4; (especially 4, 31; 12, 29); ὅλῃ τῇ ψυχή φροντίζειν τίνος (rather, with κεχαρισθαι), Xenophon, mem. 3, 11, 10); μία ψυχή, with one soul (cf. πνεῦμα, 2, p. 520a bottom), Philippians 1:27; τοῦ πλήθους ... ἦν ἡ καρδία καί ἡ ψυχή μία, Acts 4:32 (ἐρωτηθεις τί ἐστι φίλος, ἔφη. μία ψυχή δύο σώμασιν ἐνοικουσα, (Diogenes Laërtius 5, 20 (cf. Aristotle, eth. Nic. 9, 8, 2, p. 1168b, 7; on the elliptical ἀπό μιᾶς (namely, ψυχῆς?), see ἀπό, III.)); ἐκ ψυχῆς, from the heart, heartily (Ephesians 6:6 (Tr WH with Ephesians 6:7)); Colossians 3:23 (ἐκ τῆς ψυχῆς often in Xenophon; τό ἐκ ψυχῆς πένθος, Josephus, Antiquities 17, 6, 5).

b. "the (human) soul in so far as it is so constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life": 3 John 1:2; ἀγρύπνειν ὑπέρ τῶν ψυχῶν, Hebrews 13:17; ἐπιθυμίαι, αἵτινες στρατεύονται κατά τῆς ψυχῆς, 1 Peter 2:11; ἐπίσκοπος τῶν ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 2:25; σῴζειν τάς ψυχάς, James 1:21; ψυχήν ἐκ θανάτου, from eternal death, James 5:20; σωτηρία ψυχῶν, 1 Peter 1:9; ἁγνίζειν τάς ψυχάς ἑαυτῶν, 1 Peter 1:22; (τάς ψυχάς πιστῷ κτίστῃ παρατίθεσθαι, 1 Peter 4:19).

c. the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from τό σῶμα, as the other part of human nature (so in Greek writings from Isocrates and Xenophon down; cf. examples in Passow, under the word, p. 2589{a} bottom; Liddell and Scott, under the word, II. 2)): Matthew 10:28, cf. 4 Macc. 13:14 (it is called ἀθάνατος, Herodotus 2, 123; Plato Phaedr., p. 245 c., 246 a., others; ἄφθαρτος, Josephus, b. j. 2, 8, 14; διαλυθῆναι τήν ψυχήν ἀπό τοῦ σώματος, Epictetus diss. 3, 10, 14); the soul freed from the body, a disembodied soul, Acts 2:27, 31 Rec.; Revelation 6:9; Revelation 20:4 (Wis. 3:1; (on the Homeric use of the word, see Ebeling, Lex. Homer, under the word, 3, and references at the end, also Proudfit in Bib. Sacr. for 1858, pp. 753-805)).

That is what the word 'a soul' is referring to.

You are trying to explain away what the text actually says whereby it no longer makes any sense. Here is what it says plainly.

19 "Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him;
20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins." (James 5:19-20).

Now, if you were to read Acts 8:22, you would discover Peter told Simon to repent of his wickedness so as to pray that God might forgive him for his sin of trying to pay for the Spirit.

For 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

"If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death." (1 John 5:16).

A sin not unto death in this context is referring to confessed sins for if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. Yet, we also need to walk in the light as he is in the light so the blood cleanses us (1 John 1:7). So "life" is in reference to helping the believer who struggles with a particular sin that they are confessing to Jesus to overcome it (with the Lord's help).

15 "...and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.
16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much."
(James 5:15-16).


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ToBeLoved

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Your lack of belief in the facts does not change them.
Read up on the guy if you like.
If not, then you can ignore the truth if that makes you feel better.


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Your a little to desperate for me to reason with. When you cannot be right because of scripture, you go find serial killers and say that they preach against OSAS.

When you come back to reality, we can discuss scripture. Until then you carry on in your bashing of OSAS by serial killers.
 
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Your a little to desperate for me to reason with. When you cannot be right because of scripture, you go find serial killers and say that they preach against OSAS.

When you come back to reality, we can discuss scripture. Until then you carry on in your bashing of OSAS by serial killers.

Your tactic of disinformation is not going to work. Actually, George Sodini was a mass murderer who then committed suicide and he was in favor of preaching OSAS (And he did not bash it). People can click on the following link and check out the truth for themselves.

George Sodini
(OSAS Proponent Who was a Mass Murderer, & a Suicide Victim)



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ToBeLoved

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Your lack of belief in the facts does not change them.
Read up on the guy if you like.
If not, then you can ignore the truth if that makes you feel better.


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There are billions of Christians and you represent that by throwing one serial killer in the mix. So you are talking about the .00000000000000000000099%

Way to go. :scratch:

I am a little speculative about a killer's faith.
 
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ToBeLoved

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Your tactic of disinformation is not going to work. Actually, George Sodini was a mass murderer who then committed suicide and he was in favor of preaching OSAS (And he did not bash it). People can click on the following link and check out the truth for themselves.

George Sodini
(OSAS Proponent Who was a Mass Murderer, & a Suicide Victim)



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Yeah, but your bashing OSAS by saying a serial killer and suicidal maniac supported OSAS.

lol. I can imagine you "Google'ing" killer jesus faith Once Saved always saved

Come on. Like people have time for your every link or 20 paragraph posts.
 
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toLiJC

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Let me begin by saying I do not want to prove any point of view. When I want to know the true interpretation of a controversial theology, I read both sides. It upsets me when one side is clearly argumentative and trying to prove that they're right instead of considering both sides of the argument.

So I have read both sides thoroughly, and the problem is this: the side that believes "once saved always saved", I think, has the superior holistic view of all Scripture. The problem is that there are so many people convinced that believing in OSAS will result in many people going to hell, so the risk of believing OSAS is the greatest so you'd better be right. The other problem is that no matter how you feel about what God should do - it's irrelevant - whether you think something is right or not doesn't make it true. If you are confronted by God and God tells you you're wrong, you do not have the luxury of arguing with Him. Too many people believe in an interpretation based on what they feel is right.

Lastly: people need to realize that whatever you believe is just an interpretation of the Word - it doesn't mean it IS the Word, even though you quote the Bible. Both sides of the debate quote the SAME VERSES, but have different interpretations. It disappoints me when I read a website quoting all these verses as if their interpretation is correct without bothering to address the other side's interpretation of those same verses (and acting as if the other side has never seen those verses before).

I believe this is a difficult subject and therefore we must carefully and prayerfully ask God to give us the complete understanding of salvation.

So what do I want? I want a careful discussion of the controversial verses of salvation and whether you can lose it. And by careful I mean - let's not approach this with a presupposition and refuse to budge from it. Let's approach it from an attitude of seeking the truth realizing that we may be on the wrong side of it.

I think this is the most important subject in this entire site. There's no point in debating theology if we're not truly saved, therefore we should really really get this theology right.

I will begin stating my opinions in the next post. Thanks.

there is no point/sense in discussing this, especially from the perspective of one's gain for oneself, because the egoism is the root of (all) unrighteousness, furthermore, there is obviously an eternal circle of existence and fate, which suggests that there is no hope for anything better if we don't work for overall salvation in the the true Lord God, which is why the Lord, Jesus Christ, came, because He hadn't needed salvation for Himself, for He had been saved, but came to save humankind

Blessings
 
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There are billions of Christians and you represent that by throwing one serial killer in the mix. So you are talking about the .00000000000000000000099%

Way to go. :scratch:

I am a little speculative about a killer's faith.

There are other people who have committed suicide because of OSAS.
Oh, and you are right. You should be speculative about a killer's faith.
Just as you should be speculative about anyone who thinks they can sin and still be saved. John says, that if you just hate your brother you are like a murderer and no murderer has eternal life abiding in him (1 John 3:15). But no doubt you have some strange or odd interpretation on 1 John 3:15 that completely nulifies what it says plainly.


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