Hi Jason -
Please note, that if I'm going to respond in detail to your scriptures, I really do expect there to be a mutual honouring in you not just pasting a dozen more scriptures before discussing those at hand.
As you suggested, why don't we pick 2 or 3 from the OT and NT from your list and discuss those.
Sin is separation from God:
Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
The whole of Isaiah 59 shows that, despite this, God still reaches in and saves. Those who repent, he saves.
Verse 20, 21: "The Redeemer will come to Zion,
to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,”
declares the Lord.
21 “As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord."
We've established in a previous post that we're both in semi-agreement about repentance, that it is necessary. But this scripture does not show that sin sends people to hell. In fact, what it shows is that God will come in wrath against those who do wrong to encourage them to repent. That means it is not speaking of the eternal judgement. It is a remedial judgement for the sake of encouraging repentance.
Much of God's judgement against Israel in the O.T. is remedial - it encourages repentance. He sent them to Babylon so they would repent.
Micah 3:4
Then shall they cry unto the LORD, but he will not hear them: he will even hide his face from them at that time, as they have behaved themselves in an evil way in their deeds.
Micah 4 then moves into a promise of salvation.
"6 “In that day,” declares the Lord,
“I will gather the lame;
I will assemble the exiles
and those I have brought to grief.
7 I will make the lame my remnant,
those driven away a strong nation.
The Lord will rule over them in Mount Zion
from that day and forever.
8 As for you, watchtower of the flock,
stronghold of Daughter Zion,
the former dominion will be restored to you;
kingship will come to Daughter Jerusalem.”
See - God brought them to grief and then restores them. The bringing of them to grief was for the purposes of repentance and restoration. But still, we're dealing with the nation of Israel here, we're not dealing with individuals and their eternal destiny.
Ezekiel 39:23-24
And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword. According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them
.
And then he restores them. He does not hide his face
forever.
There's a clear theme throughout the Old Testament that God's wrath is remedial and for the purposes of restoration,
yet his love and acceptance of Israel is never broken. We can say that sin separates, but not forever, because God always finds a way to bring people to restoration and repentance.
Luke 13:3
I tell you, Nay: but, except you repent, you shall all likewise perish.
Now we're starting to get closer to individual salvation. Yes, unless you repent, you will perish. But you have not established that sin leads a Christian to hell with this scripture, as repentance in this context leads to regeneration, and regeneration means the sinner has become contrite and always in repentance. (It is a 'baptism of repentance' to show that people are living in that repentance).
John 3:20
"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."
Let's quote this one in context.
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. 19 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
What is the 'truth' we are to live by? It's clear as day: that Jesus is God's one and only Son. And that we are to believe this and Jesus himself. Then, whoever believes, has eternal life.
What Jesus is saying is clear: the light exposes the darkness, but you must come into it anyway, and then when it is exposed you must believe to be saved.
John 9:31 ESV
We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is a worshiper of God and does his will, God listens to him.
You've quoted the blind man that was healed, not Jesus.
From verse 30:
30 The man answered, “Now that is remarkable! You don’t know where he comes from, yet he opened my eyes. 31 We know that God does not listen to sinners. He listens to the godly person who does his will. 32 Nobody has ever heard of opening the eyes of a man born blind. 33 If this man were not from God, he could do nothing.”
34 To this they replied, “You were steeped in sin at birth; how dare you lecture us!” And they threw him out.
The man is reminding them of what
they believe, not what Jesus teaches.
This is the issue with posting tons of scriptures but not actually considering their context. It's a shotgun approach with very little value. It's far better to slow down and use the scriptures effectively - quality rather than quantity in this case.
Now it is my turn to quote some scripture
Hebrews 6:
6 Therefore we must progress beyond the elementary instructions about Christ and move on to maturity, not laying this foundation again: repentance from dead works and faith in God, 2 teaching about baptisms, laying on of hands, resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And this is what we intend to do, if God permits. 4 For it is impossible in the case of those who have once been enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 tasted the good word of God and the miracles of the coming age, 6 and then have committed apostasy, to renew them again to repentance, since they are crucifying the Son of God for themselves all over again and holding him up to contempt.
This (rather famous) scripture clearly says that it is apostasy that stops them from being renewed to repentance, not sin.
It is the abandonment of faith, not sin, that makes repentance impossible.
See, I believe repentance is necessary and is given by God, and we've established this between us as a semi-agreement. God always allows repentance from sin, but if you abandon the faith willingly, knowingly, after having experienced and known its full benefits, then you are beyond repentance. But that is all that's mentioned in this scripture.
How else would you interpret it?
Romans 11:
7 Now if some of the branches were broken off, and you, a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among them and participated in the richness of the olive root, 18 do not boast over the branches. But if you boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 Then you will say, “The branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted! They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but fear! 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, perhaps he will not spare you. 22 Notice therefore the kindness and harshness of God—harshness toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness toward you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And even they—if they do not continue in their unbelief—will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut off from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches be grafted back into their own olive tree?
It's clear that what keeps us from being cut off is not sin but standing by faith, continuing in God's kindness. There is nothing, and I repeat, nothing here that shows sin cuts you off from God. In fact, the very opposite: you must continue in God's kindness (his grace) otherwise you can be cut off.
How else would you interpret it?
I would appreciate you providing some sort of answer to these scriptures as I have tried to provide some sort of answer to yours.
I don't have a podcast, nor any videos. Currently, I just write here, my friend.
Granted, one day I would like to do videos (in the upcoming future).
Sorry, I thought you were Jason Hardin. I copied and pasted something on your scripture list and he came up.
It is true that a believer can struggle with sin and be repentant of it. The Parable of the Tax Collector shows us this. However, the person who stops repenting in my opinion is on dangerous ground, though.
1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins. No confession means no forgiveness of sins (if they were to die in that moment and did not confess or repent of their sins according to
1 John 1:9). In fact, believers have instantly did things that strongly displeased God (whereby their destruction was quick and immediate) before they even had a chance to repent.
Ananais and Sapphira both lied to the Spirit and they were instantly killed.
A great fear fell upon the church and all who heard it (
Acts 5:1-11).
No disagreement here in principle.
While believers are given a new heart and a new spirit by God so as to do good, their free will also remains intact. They can still choose to do good or evil. This means believers can fight against the new man and Christ living within them and fall into sin whereby they need to repent of it. If they refuse to repent under the conviction of the Spirit, then they are rebelling against God.
Here your semi-Pelagian tendencies are clear
Humans do not have the capacity to choose God or do righteous works of any kind (their righteous works are spoiled by bad motivations etc.) before God, in his grace, invites them to his kingdom.
In other words, human beings have no true free will until God frees the will to either accept or reject him.
They cannot choose to do good, they always are doing evil, even when they try to do good.
This is clear from the Biblical witness.
Ephesians 2
And although you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly lived according to this world’s present path, according to the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the ruler of the spirit that is now energizing the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom all of us also formerly lived out our lives in the cravings of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath even as the rest…
4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of his great love with which he loved us, 5 even though we were dead in transgressions, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you are saved!— 6 and he raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 to demonstrate in the coming ages the surpassing wealth of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 it is not from works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
You, I, we're all DEAD in our transgressions. But God made us alive.
This is a fundamental theological point you need to consider strongly. Semi-pelagianism is not a gospel at all but simply digresses into a powerless moralism. If you truly want to see Christians living righteous lives, you will never achieve it via semi-pelagianism. History and the scriptures is testimony to that absolute fact.
With love and prayer and by giving them the Word of God to help them to overcome. But obviously they cannot remain in that state for years on end. There has to be change at some point. God will gain the victory in their life. For the Son of God was manifested to destroy the works of the devil (
1 John 3:8).
Agreed. There must be some change at some point. At least here you are not being semi-pelagian. Phew!
It is not salvation by man directed works because NONE of the good work a believer does is exclusively their own that they can boast about. It is God's work (or will) done thru you. Jesus said there is none good but God. Jesus said we can do nothing without Him (
John 15:5). So it is only the Lord working in a person who does the good. I cannot do good on my own without God. Oh sure, a person can imitate goodness; But this would not be the true goodness that God works thru His people. God working thru you does not negate faith in Christ's work. One work of God does not negate another work of God.
This is excellent - God does the work through you. Now we're talking Gospel!
As for dying in a car accident before getting a chance to repent. Well, the Scriptures essentially say God is the giver and taker of life. So it is not like some accident happened that was outside of God's control. God is sovereign. God could have made you to drop your keys to prevent you from getting in an accident. Nothing happens without His say so. All people's day of death is determined by God (Unless of course they were to be Raptured). Can a person contribute to their early death like taking harmful drugs? Sure, they can. But again, it is ultimately God that decides on the day, hour, minute, and second, that they die. Even suicide can be prevented with God's intervention if that is His will.
So if God ends a person's life before they had a chance to confess their sins, then that means God knows their heart and future in what they will do (and it will not be good). It is the same reason why God saves babies. I believe all babies that are killed (are souls that God had handpicked that he knew would be faithful to Him anyways in this life). God is sovereign over His creation. Yes, people have free will. But God knows who are His and who are not His before He even put forth the first atoms within His creation when He spoke it into existence. God can place any soul in whatever time, land, and circumstance he sees fit (that best suits that person).
This was a very good answer, thank you, I didn't think of that!
Not in dispute with that. We have faith in Jesus without works in our initial salvation. From there, the righteous works of the Lord work thru the believer. The believer either chooses to allow God to work thru them or not. But good works will be evident in a believer's life because it is the proof in the pudding that God or Christ lives within them. But the ultimate source of salvation is not actually faith. Faith is merely the vehicle that gets us to the source of salvation. That source of salvation is Jesus Christ Himself. For it is written,
"He that hath the Son hath life;
and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life." (
1 John 5:12). So the best way to think of salvation is by thinking that we have to abide in Jesus and His good ways (According to having faith in His Word - The Bible; For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God -
Romans 10:17).
Brilliant. We agree. And this is not semi-pelagianism (phew again!)
Unbelief might have led them to sin, but it was not the original sin itself.
The actual sin itself was the act of Adam eating of the tree. In other words, this is one of those instances that this type of sin was not like committing adultery in one's heart. Adam fell when he bit of the fruit and not before. For God said,
"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it:
for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." (
Genesis 2:17).
So God said to Adam, in the day you
eat thereof, you will surely die (and not before).
Disagree. Jesus shows us that sin starts in the heart - which you've agreed to before. The eating of the fruit of knowledge gave them knowledge of good and evil, alright, and made them realize what it was they had just done! They had desired to be like God, and would never reach his righteousness, so they cover themselves. The actual sin took place when "the woman saw that the tree produced fruit that was good for food, was attractive to the eye, and was desirable for making one wise." When she believed the serpent and desired to be 'like God', the eating of the fruit was the natural outcome.
If you want to still go with your theology that the sin only happened when they ate, then you will have to be consistent: meaning, all sins are only sins when there is action, but so long as you harbor it in your heart or mull over it, you are not sinning. Jesus, however, has a different opinion.
Nowhere am I proposing that we put the cart before the horse.
Nowhere did I say we can deny salvation in Jesus by faith first in order to be initially and ultimately saved. For if we slip up, do we go out and do another work to get cleansed? No. We go to Jesus and confess our sins to Him so He can cleanse us and forgive us (
1 John 2:1,
1 John 1:9). But
1 John 1:7 also says if we have to walk in the light as He is in the light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. In other words, after having faith in Jesus that He saves you, you have to have faith in HIS WORDS of what He commanded you to do, too. If not, then we are just being our own lords and masters. Jesus said, why do you call me Lord, Lord if you do not do what I say? Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (
John 14:15). John says he that says he knows
Him [Jesus] and does not keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in him (
1 John 2:4).
Okay, no problem - I think this is right, we must have faith in his words on what he has commanded but ALSO have faith in his words that what he has commanded HE WILL DO THROUGH US.
What do you mean by faith? Faith in what? Where do we get faith from? How is that faith lived out?
I would say that we have faith in Jesus and His Word always.
.
Agreed. I would say faith in his word, faith in his grace, faith in his promises to make us clean to fulfil those commands he gives.
#1. Obeying God's Commandments (works) is a part of the faith
(
James 2:17) (
Hebrews 11:8).
#2. Breaking God's Commandments is a part of unbelief (Which is also sin)
(
1 John 3:4).
For faith comes by hearing the Word. Are you hearing the Word on obeying God's Commands? Can a person obey God's Commands without having faith? Not really. Even repentance and believing on Jesus Christ are both Commands from God (
Acts 17:30) (
1 John 3:23). Yes, faith comes first by believing in Jesus and trusting in Him. But what are we trusting Him to do? We are trusting Him by faith to help us to obey what He has commanded us to do.
Woohoo, praise God. Agreed!
There is no forgiveness if somebody does not confess and forsake their sins (See
1 John 1:9,
1 John 1:7,
Proverbs 28:13, and
Matthew 12:41, cf.
Jonah 3:6-10). While God can help us by our asking and trusting Him, we do also have to eventually take action ourselves (in cooperating with God in the good work He wants to do thru you).
Brilliant. This, to me, is the right
emphasis.
Well, Scripture repeatedly says that certain sins can cause one to go to hell or to lose their salvation. Please carefully read these verses and do not dismiss them out of hand.
I addressed some above. But let's address one or two here as well.
Jesus says,
"But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire." (
Matthew 5:22).
Jesus says,
28 "But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." (
Matthew 5:28-30).
Jesus says,
“But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.” (
Matthew 6:15).
Jesus says,
“36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.”
(
Matthew 12:36-37).
Jesus also says this:
John 6:28,29
"28 So then they said to him, “What must we do to accomplish the deeds [works] God requires?” 29 Jesus replied, “This is the deed [work] God requires—to believe in the one whom he sent.”
You have to reconcile this with the sermon on the mount and Jesus' other teachings.
How do you reconcile it?
Jesus tells us that by keeping His commands, it shows whether or not we truly love Him or not.
For Jesus says,
“He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me." (
John 14:21)
And Jesus says,
"If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words."(
John 14:23-24).
Yes, we keep his word. It goes both ways. If you love him, you will keep his commandments (meaning, by loving him you are able to keep them). And if you keep them, you know you love him. Still, what I have been getting at, is the way you keep them is through faith.
Again - John 6:28,29 above. The question they are asking is HOW do we accomplish the works God requires? The answer is to believe Jesus. From there, it flows naturally.
As for Arminianism: Well, I do not believe in "Arminianism." I believe in the position known as: "Semi-Pelagianism."
Then there is much to discuss, as I believe this is a faulty view, based on the Word of God.
I've spent over an hour (almost two, I think) compiling this response. I would appreciate more effective responses to the actual issues at hand so we both don't have to spend hours on end on the Internet.
Blessings!