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Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

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Back up to verse 19

In Romans 6:18 Paul is talking about their initial salvation. For in verse 17, Paul says, "but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you." (Romans 6:17). Apparently some of these Roman Christians were in some kind of sin. Hence, why he told them to, "....even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness." (Romans 6:19). So yes, not all Christians perfectly obey the Lord overnight. For many I imagine it can be a process. But it does not have to be. A person can walk uprightly with God right away if they so choose to allow God to work in them right away. Paul's life (after coming to the faith) was characterized by a life of righteousness and not sin (Note: The bulk of Romans 7 was Paul recounting his perspective as a Pharisee before he became a Christian). Also, Enoch was translated because he pleased God. So yes. It is possible to walk righteously (Even in the Old Testament). The 144,000 were found without fault before the throne of God (Revelation 14:3-5). For Noah was a preacher of righteousness. Jesus was a preacher of righteousness, too. He told two people to, "sin no more." Why would Jesus tell people to do something that they could not possibly stop doing? It doesn't make any sense. For there are people who have been set free from drug addiction, gambling addiction, and sex addiction right away after they accepted Jesus. Sure, do they have free will and can they fight against God and later backslide? Yes. But if they love Jesus, they willl eventually repent and they will keep His Commandments. For Jesus says, repent. Jesus says if you love me, keep my Commandments.

Stuart said:
Heb 10:14

For by one sacrifice he has made perfect forever those who are BEING made holy

The KJV says,

"For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Hebrews 10:14).

This means God's sacrifice perfects those who truly lived a sanctified and holy life. A person who lives a holy life obeys God's Commands and he teaches others to obey them, too.

Stuart said:
I need a break,

I agree.

May God bless you.


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If you are born again you cant treat sin lightly can you, the law is on your heart.

But if you want a law of righteousness, firstly accept what the standard I to be righteous under the law.

Break time!!!!

Whenever a preacher says, "Once Saved Always Saved" to a person, that will automatically lead that person to think they have a license to sin if that preacher does not explain themselves properly or they do not get a chance to talk about how living holy is necessary. For there are many Christians out there who believe they can sin as much as they like and yet they will be saved because of their belief on Jesus. However, one cannot live holy without obeying God's laws (1 John 3:7). For did we not obey the command to repent? (Acts 17:30). So yes. Christians are under some kind of law of righteousness. In fact, having a law written in your hearts means you are under some kind of law that is right. The key question is: What is the Law written in your heart? Is it a law of righteousness or goodness? Or it is a law whereby others can easily misunderstand you into think you have a license to sin?

Again, do you realize that there is a Law or Command in the Bible that tells us to believe on Jesus? (See 1 John 3:23). Are Christians not under this Law of righteousness? Does not this law or commandment also include that we are to love others?


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"...ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him."
(1 John 2:29).

This means that the born again person is under some kind of righteousness because they are doing that which is righteous.

Righteousness is only possibly with obedience to God's laws.
For we first obeyed the Command of 1 John 3:23 and Acts 17:30.
And we continue to obey God's commands as a part of our walk with God after that. If not, then we are in support of Lawless or ungodliness. But the grace of God teaches us to deny ungodliness (Titus 2:12), and without holiness, no man shall see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).


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I totally agree with what you said above. Then again, I hear things from time to time in sermons, posts, etc. about losing salvation and it makes me question my belief OSAS.
 
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stuart lawrence

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Jason
Just pause and think for a moment.
If you could attain sinless perfection you would no longer need a saviour would you.
Humans, with their emotions are not designed to be perfect in the flesh.
You are not sinless Are you. Why not? Dont you try hard enough? To never get angry, say any unkind word, to perfectly at all times love those who slander us, malign us, steal from us, persecute us etc is a wonderful ideal to pursue by faith in Christ, but you would not be human if you could perfectly at all times achieve such a state.
Please don't now accuse me of wanting to keep sin in my life
 
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stuart lawrence

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You are using your human reasoning to try and make sense of the spiritual, it cannot work.
The truth is, according to the bible, victory over sin is dying to a law of righteousness. It may not make sense to the rational human mind, but what is a christian to stand on? The rational human mind, or what the bible actually states?

I can assure you, when I lived under a law of righteousness I was not able to truly love God, that came when i died. to a law of righteousness.

Do we then nullify the law by thus faith( a righteousness of faith I Christ not observing the law) not at all! Rather we uphold the law rom3:31
 
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stuart lawrence

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But now, by dying to what once bound us we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit not the old way of the written code
Rom7:6

What are the fruits of the Spirit?

Love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self control gal 5:22

Do these fruits oppose Gods laws?

Against such things there is no law verse 23

That's the way to live a righteous life, by bearing the fruits of the Spirit, not striving to obey the written code
 
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stuart lawrence

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I totally agree with what you said above. Then again, I hear things from time to time in sermons, posts, etc. about losing salvation and it makes me question my belief OSAS.
.
 
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Jason
Just pause and think for a moment. If you could attain sinless perfection you would no longer need a saviour would you.

Not true.

Jesus saves in Justification.
Jesus lives to forever intercede on our behalf (Hebrews 7:25). Jesus intercedes so as to continually cleanse me of my past sins. (when I first came to Him and those sins that I confessed to Him). I realize that Jesus died in my place for these sins on the cross (of which I could have not be forgiven otherwise). I believe Jesus is my only mediator between God the Father and man.

Jesus saves in Sanctification.
Jesus also is the One who actually does the good work thru me and it is not my own good work alone. For Jesus says we can do nothing without Him (John 15:5). Jesus is the One who helps me to overcome sin. He is the one who saves me from being a slave to sin in this life and to break all addictions and or sins. So all praise would go to Jesus for my upright walk in Him. For if we think we are something when we are nothing, we deceive ourselves. There is none good but God. So Jesus is the One who can make me holy by His power. It is nothing that I can do on my own. For with God all things are possible.

Jesus saves in Glorifcation.
Jesus will one day take His bride home (2 Timothy 4:8).


You can check out my 50 points in Scripture and my answers to the 7 most common objections to Sinless Perfectionism here:

A Biblical Defense of Sinless Perfectionism.

Stuart said:
Please don't now accuse me of wanting to keep sin in my life

Where did I ever say that?
Which post #?
Note: Talking in the third person about a belief does not mean I am talking to you and what you believe personally. There is a difference.
If you believe I have accused you of having sin in your life, I will be happy to remove the words that say so. For it is not my goal to judge you. I merely strive to judge wrong beliefs. The Word of God will judge us all on the last day.


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stuart lawrence

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If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

1 john1:8

You can play with the words I guess to make them state something other than they clearly state
 
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God is not the author of confusion. So God is not going to teach you anything that is not logical. God is orderly and His universe is designed with perfect order. God is not going to say something to us that does not make any sense. Everything can be perfectly understood in God's Word if they ask the Lord for the understanding on it and if they truly believe what God's Word says in regards that they have to obey the words of Jesus and His followers. But most today do not want to obey Jesus. They want to look to Him as the Savior, but they do not want to do what Jesus says.

Anyways, before you said we are not under a Law of righteousness. Now you are quoting Paul as saying we establish the Law. How can you not be under a Law of righteousness and yet also establish the Law? Is Paul talking in the past tense of how He establishes the Law? If so, how does Paul fulfill the Law? Is it not in loving your brother or your neighbor? (Romans 13:8-10). Is not loving your neighbor a commandment or law given to us by Jesus? (Mark 12:31). Are we not under this law of righteousness?


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stuart lawrence

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Rushing going out soon can reply more in depth later.

Romans 3:31 is established by the truth of rom6:14

I thought you were fundamentalist but you are not are you.
I know the definition of a fundamentalist. They must accept the plainly written word.
The bible us clear, the christian has righteousness APART from law, you refuse to accept it.

Going out now, will respond to future comments later
 
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If we claim to be without sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us

1 john1:8

You can play with the words I guess to make them state something other than they clearly state

First, the OSAS Interpretation on 1 John 1:8 does not fit the context. Especially when John states, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” (1 John 2:4). In fact, we see no surrounding text tell us anything to support the idea that the truth is not in us if we say we are not always sinning (Important Note: 1 John 1:10 says almost the same thing that 1 John 1:8 says; So it is not support or proof that the Bible is clearly telling us in another way that we always be in sin).

Second, the idea of saying we are always in sin would not be true, either. It is very easy to not sin for a day and or even a week being a born again believer in Jesus Christ. We can retreat to a forest and we can pray for a week with God’s Word, or we can simply pray so as not to be led into temptation and remove ourselves from sinful things. If you do not think it is not possible to do such a thing, do you think a person can stop sinning for 5 minutes? How about an hour? Jesus says, "Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation." (Matthew 26:41). Paul says, "There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (1 Corinthians 10:13). If such is the case, then the OSAS interpretation on 1 John 1:8 is clearly false.

Three, 1 John 1:8 is a warning to the person who denies sin’s existence: This is basically a person saying that "sin" does not apply to them in regards to their right standing with God. For as I said before, 1 John 2:4 says the same thing, but using different words. 1 John 3:4 says “sin is transgression of the Law.” Laws are the same thing as Commands. So not keeping the Commandments is sin. In light of this fact, this is what 1 John 2:4 says, “He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments [i.e. sins], is a liar, and the truth is not in him.” ‭In other words, when one says they walk with God and yet they sin, the truth is not in them (according to Scripture) because they are ignoring sin (by breaking the commandments) in their self professed walk with God. For he that commits sin is of the devil (1 John 3:8), and all who do evil hate the light (John 3:20).

Also, Christian Scientists think sin is an illusion and that it does not exist. OSAS Proponents think that for a believer in Jesus, all sin is paid for (Including present and future sins that are not confessed). But 1 John 1:9 says, “If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9). So they deny the consequences of sin in relation to their right standing with God (Making it seem like sin has no effect in regards to their salvation). They deny confessing sins so as to be forgiven because they already believe they have been forgiven for all time (In regards to their right standing with God). But wouldn’t God have to agree with this wrong way of salvation or sin in order for such a plan of salvation to work? Can God agree with sin? Surely not. For God is good and all His ways are righteous and holy.

Four, who is the “WE” in 1 John chapter 1? The word “we” is an impersonal generic reference to everyone. While John was writing to certain believers warning them about the false gnostics who were trying to seduce them (1 John 2:26), we have to realize that the “we” is talking to all men. Please take note that I just said “we” in this last past sentence (using in the same way that John does). The Bible was ultimately written to all men. So while there are many instances where one writer is talking to a specific people or person, we also have to realize that many times their message had a wider application to ALL of mankind because it was to be divinely inspired Holy Scripture to lead man to have a right relationship with God.

Here is one way of stating 1 John 1:8 in the KJV,

“If we say that we have no sin [when we do sin], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us” (1 John 1:8).​

Here is another way of saying it,

“If we say that we have no sin [in the sense that sin does not apply to us or that sin does not exist], we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” (1 John 1:8).​

Anyways, I hope this helps.
May God's love and peace always be upon you.

Side Note:
All words in brackets in blue is my commentary to Scripture.
Have a blessed day.
And take care.


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First, faith establishes the Law.
This is how it always was.
The Old Testament saints had faith in the Lord and yet they obeyed God's Commands.
They believed in a coming Messiah.
In fact, Abraham had seen Christ's day and was glad.

Second, if faith establishes the Law, then that means you are under a Law of righteousness of some kind. For if faith is the gas that makes the vehicle of Law to move (i.e. to establish the Law), then they have a synergetic relationship with each other.

Three, I have faith in Jesus as our Savior and that He can forgive us of our sins. I have faith in the words of Jesus in what He told me to do. For Jesus did not tell us to treat sin lightly and nor did Jesus give us a free pass to sin or to live however we like (Whether that be alot of sin or a little bit of sin within our lives). On the contrary, Jesus warned us about sin and that it will have dire consequences for our souls in the after life (Matthew 5:28-30), (Matthew 6:15), (Matthew 7:26-27), (Matthew 12:36-37). In fact, Paul even says shall we continue in sin because we are not under the Law (i.e. the Old Law)? Paul replies with, "God forbid." James says faith without works is a dead kind of faith (James 2:17).

You believe there is just one Law for all of mankind, right?
You believe Christians are not under any Law salvation wise, right?
You don't believe the Law has changed, right?

If that is the case, then why are there two laws mentioned in Romans 8:2?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death" (Romans 8:2).​

So there is...

#1. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus.
#2. The law of Sin and Death.​

What does the first law to do the second law?
It makes us free from it according to Romans 8:2.

Also, why does the author of Hebrews say that the Law has changed?
(Hebrews 7:12).

Do Christians obey God's laws?
If so, then what is the point in obeying them if they do not relate to our salvation?
Did not God command us to repent? (Acts 17:30).
Did not Jesus command us to believe in Him? (1 John 3:23).
Did not Jesus say the following? "...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).
Did not Jesus say if you love me, keep my Commandments? (John 14:15).
Can a Christian not love Jesus in this way and be in good standing with Him?
If so, then would it not be contrary to the words of Jesus here?
Paul says if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ and the doctrine of Godliness he is proud and knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).


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How can a Christian make the claim that they have the fruits of the Spirit and yet also claim that they are "found as sinners" according to Galatians 2:17 or that they are always in sin according to 1 John 1:8?

They cant!

For Jesus says,

"But if your eye is evil, your whole body will be full of darkness. If the light in you is darkness, how dark it will be" (Matthew 6:23 GWT).

"No man can serve two masters..." (Matthew 6:24).


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Jesus believes those who are His brothers and sisters are those who DO God's will.

For Jesus says,
"For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother." (Matthew 12:50).

God's will is for you to be holy (1 Thessalonians 4:3 NLT).
“Father, sanctify them by your truth, because your word is truth." (John 17:17 ABPE).

Are you a brother or sister of Jesus (according to the words of Jesus)?
Are you sanctified by the Truth (i.e. God's Word)?
Meaning, are you obeying God's Word or the words of Jesus?


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HatGuy

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Wonderful post:

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes EVIDENT that we ourselves are sinners, does ThiS mean Tha Christ promotes sin? Absolutely not! If i rebuild what i destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker.
Gal2:16&17
Thanks Stuart. And thanks for your earlier comments too [emoji2]
 
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Most of the time he is quoting what Scripture says.
I hope God's Spirit talks to your heart on the verses he brings up.

May God bless you richly in all spiritual things this fine day.


....
Thanks Jason for these videos.

I watched two about defeating addictive sins, and I quite enjoyed them.

What I particularly enjoyed was how he is emphasizing that we must truly, really, believe the Word.

These two aspects of (1) the power of Jesus's Word and 2) faith in that Word (it is a word of faith we preach) is something I believe God is showing me right now.

For after all, the Word is living and active because the Spirit works through it, if we walk in faith in Christ and all He says.

Based on these two videos, I'm not sure if he and you would exactly teach the same thing, but I'll need to watch some others to see. I also read some of his articles on sinless perfection.

Here's something I want to say. It's been my experience that insisting that sin results in a loss of salvation only adds to the problem, in particular when it comes to addictive sins.

This is because it seems to erode faith and trust in Christ, when it is faith and trust in Christ that is necessary to defeat the sin in the first place, as it has to be by his Spirit. It just never seems to solve the problem: tell a Christian that their sin will send them to hell, and watch them try everything to stop it in their own strength, or give up on the faith eventually.

Sin also erodes faith. That is why it is so dangerous. So to say that a guy can sin as much as he wants and remain saved forever is perhaps not a good idea either. However, only if you are counselling them with regards to faith: I.e. you tell them that the sin will shipwreck their faith, and then they are lost as a result (not of the sin, but due to a loss of faith). People also tend to give up on faith when you tell them that their faith was only a one-time event and now the deal is sealed.

This is how I'm currently working it out, and it makes scriptural sense to me. In every group of verses that speak about what we ought to do, there is first a discussion on faith. In all the warning verses, faith is always the central factor and sin the secondary one.

For the record, I've been trying for four years to believe what the Word says: that Jesus will make me perfect (mature) and completely clean; that I am, indeed, dead to sin. I even wrote a book about it. It seems to me that your video dude is right: we have to really believe it, and God honours that faith and heals, just like he did in the scriptures. It takes time to truly believe, but he is also perfecting our faith.

I think the difficulty with this is it comes across as faith healing and Word of Faith stuff, when it is not. Perhaps the devil has purposefully tried to distort the teaching of faith so that we would not see God's ways here for what they really are.
 
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supescritter

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Thank-you Jason for persisting in this topic. I am reading what you write with a spirit of learning. As I have said before, I do not wish to argue, but I want to explore the full extent of your interpretation to test against other interpretations to ascertain the truth. I have noticed that people seem unwilling to budge from their presuppositions on both sides of the discussion.

On your 1 John 1:9 interpretation, I find this one better:
1 John 1:9 explained.

The summary to the article is this:
A wrong understanding of God’s unconditional love and forgiveness will result in a love and forgiveness toward others that is based on man’s forgiveness instead of God’s. If a person thinks they have to ask for forgiveness from God in order to be forgiven, then that person will exemplify the same sort of forgiveness toward others. They will think that there is no way I am going to forgive the person that did wrong to me, until they ask for it. Believers are told today, “be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.” (Ephesians 4:32) Understanding God’s forgiveness is paramount toward treating others with the kind of love and compassion as completely displayed by God. Once a person accepts the truth, that they are forgiven completely, then that person will “love because He first loved us” (1 John 4:19).

You quoted: Matthew 19:21 and say that we must do works, but I don't think Matt 19:21 says that. People often use that verse to imply that Jesus wants ALL of us to lead a life of poverty, but Jesus met many rich people and only said those words to that one rich man. Why? Because the rich man depended on his own righteousness, and not God's righteousness. Since the rich man depended on his own righteousness, then he was commanded to sell everything in order to be perfect in his own righteousness - something that he couldn't do. On the other hand, we can be righteous through faith AND if we don't depend on our own righteousness. The conclusion of that parable is the apostles asking Jesus "who can be saved" and then Jesus replying cryptically "with man it is impossible, but with God all things are possible" - what does this mean? I think this contradicts your interpretation of 19:21 - Jesus is saying that only being saved by grace (without merit) can man be saved - man cannot save himself by his own perfection.

You quoted other verses like 1 Peter 1:16 and Matthew 5:48 which seem to imply that we have to live a life of self-righteousness. But maybe those verses don't mean that. What if "being holy" means believing in Jesus' gift of salvation, which makes us holy?

You quoted John 5:14 - here is an article that addresses that: PM Notes: Go And Sin No More? Taking A Closer Look At John 8:11b
and: Why did Jesus tell people to “go and sin no more” if sinlessness is impossible?

Please read these responses, because I would like to hear your opinion on them. Thanks.
 
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