Once Saved Always Saved - Why is it so hard?

Check ou this thread here to see some great verses that tell us Judas was once saved and then lost it.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation


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Jason0047 said:

Check ou this thread here to see some great verses that tell us Judas was once saved and then lost it.

Judas was saved and then lost his salvation


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Do you want to discuss this, or have me explain gal2:16&17?

stuart lawrence said:

The issue is. Was the law written on the mind and placed on the heart of Judas? The answer is no, Tha is specific to the NC

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No. It is not. People under the Old Covenant could write the OT Law into their hearts when the OT was still in effect. David says he hid His Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalms 119:11).

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stuart lawrence said:

Do you want to discuss this, or have me explain gal2:16&17?

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I provided a link for you to check out the verses in regards to Judas.
Check them out there.

As for Galatians 2:16-17, that is up to you if you want to explain them at length. But if you are to do so, you need to explain the other verses like Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:19-21, and Galatians 5:24.


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Jason0047 said:

No. It is not. People under the Old Covenant could write the OT Law into their hearts when the OT was still in effect. David says he hid His Word within his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalms 119:11).

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Jeremiah ch31

The Time IS COMING( it I not their yet,)when I will make a NEW covenant...

What are the terms of This NEW covenant according to Jeremiah?

I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

Jason0047 said:

I provided a link for you to check out the verses in regards to Judas.
Check them out there.

As for Galatians 2:16-17, that is up to you if you want to explain them at length. But if you are to do so, you need to explain the other verses like Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 5:19-21, and Galatians 5:24.


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I cant write out huge amount of exegesis on my phone. If your not bothered about the explanation i will leave it. Though it does not contradict your added verses.
Just tell me if gal2:16&17 is enough for you now or not.

stuart lawrence said:

Jeremiah ch31

The Time IS COMING( it I not their yet,)when I will make a NEW covenant...

What are the terms of This NEW covenant according to Jeremiah?

I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more

Click to expand...

As I stated before, David said he hid God's Word in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalms 119:11).

Yes, the time is coming when the Gentiles will accept the terms of what God originally wanted His people Israel to do as a whole (But they failed to do it). But there were a select few who did obey God in the Old Testament. The words "circumscion of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament. Circumcision happens when a person repents of their sins, and they receive the seed of the Word of God into their heart and or they write God's laws upon their heart. For when a person is born again, all things become new. They follow God's good ways and not their own sinful ways.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"


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stuart lawrence said:

I cant write out huge amount of exegesis on my phone. If your not bothered about the explanation i will leave it. Though it does not contradict your added verses.
Just tell me if gal2:16&17 is enough for you now or not.

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No, you have to ALSO explain the other verses in light of your explanation.
Otherwise you are just explaining your askewed view on verses that you prefer seeing over not explaining others (that you don't like).


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Jason0047 said:

As I stated before, David said he hid God's Word in his heart so that he may not sin against the Lord (Psalms 119:11).

Yes, the time is coming when the Gentiles will accept the terms of what God originally wanted His people Israel to do as a whole (But they failed to do it). But there were a select few who did obey God in the Old Testament. The words "circumscion of the heart" is just another way of saying "born again" in the Old Testament. Circumcision happens when a person receives the seed of the Word of God into their heart and or they write God's laws upon their heart. For when a person is born again, all things become new. They follow God's good ways and not their own sinful ways.

Quick Review:
Circumcision of the Heart in the Old Testament.
(Which is obviously a spiritual renewal of one's heart):

Deuteronomy 10:16

"Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked."

Deuteronomy 30:6

"And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live."

Jeremiah 4:4

"Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings."

Ezekiel 44:9

"Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel."

Leviticus 26:41

"And that I also have walked contrary unto them, and have brought them into the land of their enemies; if then their uncircumcised hearts be humbled, and they then accept of the punishment of their iniquity:."

Jeremiah 9:26

"Egypt, and Judah, and Edom, and the children of Ammon, and Moab, and all that are in the utmost corners, that dwell in the wilderness: for all these nations are uncircumcised, and all the house of Israel are uncircumcised in the heart."

Having A New Heart in the Old Testament:

Ezekiel 11:19

"And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh"

Ezekiel 18:31

"Cast away from you all your transgressions, whereby ye have transgressed; and make you a new heart and a new spirit: for why will ye die, O house of Israel?"

Ezekiel 36:26

"A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh."

Circumcision of the Heart in the New Testament:

Acts 7:51

"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye."

Spiritual Circumcision in the New Testament:

Philippians 3:3

"For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh."

Romans 2:28-29

28 "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God."

Colossians 2:11

"In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ"


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The prophecy from Jeremiah is perfectly clear

The Time IS COMING when i will make a NEW covenant.

It hadn't happened when Jeremiah wrote his prophecy.
And he clearly states what this NEW covenant will be, the covenant to come at a Tim in the future

Jason0047 said:

No, you have to ALSO explain the other verses in light of your explanation.
Otherwise you are just explaining your askewed view on verses that you prefer seeing over explaining others (that you don't like).


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Well I will leave it then, I told you I cant write huge amounts out on my phone. But dont say i didn't offer to explain it

Jason0047 said:

No, you have to ALSO explain the other verses in light of your explanation.
Otherwise you are just explaining your askewed view on verses that you prefer seeing over not explaining others (that you don't like).


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As for askewed verses, may I remind you I have plenty of scripture that states the christian is not under the law, you have NONE to oppose it!!

stuart lawrence said:

The prophecy from Jeremiah is perfectly clear

The Time IS COMING when i will make a NEW covenant.

It hadn't happened when Jeremiah wrote his prophecy.
And he clearly states what this NEW covenant will be, the covenant to come at a Tim in the future

Click to expand...

Yes, it is a time in the future. It is talking about the New Covenant because the Gentiles accepted Jesus and the Jews did not.

God is talking from the perspective of the benefits of how this will be common among many believers in the New Covenant. This does not mean that saints in the Old Testament could not have the Law written upon their hearts. Again, David says he hid God's Word in his heart. So either there is a contradiction in the Bible or both things are true.


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stuart lawrence said:

Well I will leave it then, I told you I cant write huge amounts out on my phone. But dont say i didn't offer to explain it

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I am glad you didn't explain it.
I would just have quoted the same other verses to you from before.


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Jason0047 said:

I am glad you didn't explain it.
I would just have quoted the same other verses to you from before.


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You are making assumptions before hearing the explanation. The explanation proves your assumptions wrong.
Dont rush to judgements without first hearing the facts!!!

Jason0047 said:

Yes, it is a time in the future. It is talking about the New Covenant because the Gentiles accepted Jesus and the Jews did not.

God is talking from the perspective of the benefits of how this will be common among many believers in the New Covenant. This does not mean that saints in the Old Testament could not have the Law written upon their hearts. Again, David says he hid God's Word in his heart. So either there is a contradiction in the Bible or both things are true.


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Nope.

The writer of Hebrews spends the first fourteen verses of chapter 10 speaking of Christs death for dins, no more animal sacrifices. Then he states:

The Holy Spirit also testifies about this( what the writer has been previously stating)

This is the covenant I will make with them AFTER that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts...

stuart lawrence said:

As for askewed verses, may I remind you I have plenty of scripture that states the christian is not under the law, you have NONE to oppose it!!

Click to expand...

Jesus said, if you love me, keep my commandments (John 14:15).
Jesus said, if you will enter into life, keep the commandments (Matthew 19:17).

Scripture says that the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12).

John says, "That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment." (1 John 3:23).
Surely we are under this commandment or law.

John says,
3 "And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked."

In Romans 3:31, Paul says he establishes the Law.

Paul also says if that if any man speaks contrary to the words of Jesus Christ (Which would include His commands or laws) and the doctrine of Godliness, they are proud and know nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

Paul also says,

There is the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2).
Surely we are under this Law.

There is the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2).
Surely we are under this law (for it is defined for us in Romans 8:1).
And Paul says that this law makes him free from the law of sin and death (Which is the Law of Moses. Note: The Law of Moses is another Law that is different from the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus).

James says there is a Law of Liberty (James 1:25) (James 2:12) and a Royal Law (James 2:8). These are the laws of loving others. James does not say we can break these laws. He concludes that faith without works is dead. Obviously this would include the law of loving others that he was just talking about.


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stuart lawrence said:

You are making assumptions before hearing the explanation. The explanation proves your assumptions wrong.
Dont rush to judgements without first hearing the facts!!!

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Make up your mind already. You keep saying you are going to explain it and then you say you are not going to explain it. Either do it or do not do it.

But you have to realize that you have to explain these two verses in light of the verses I provided to you. Otherwise it will just look like you are biased to seeing what you want to see in the Bible.


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stuart lawrence said:

Nope.

The writer of Hebrews spends the first fourteen verses of chapter 10 speaking of Christs death for dins, no more animal sacrifices. Then he states:

The Holy Spirit also testifies about this( what the writer has been previously stating)

This is the covenant I will make with them AFTER that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds
And place them on their hearts...

Click to expand...

So what are those verses saying then if they do not mean what they plainly say at face value? For I have no problem reconciling the verses on Christ's death on our behalf (initial or ultimate salvation) versus say continuing in Christ's good ways (working thru me according to His Word). For Jesus saves both in Justification and Sanctification.

If you do not have a clear and easy to understand explanation on the verses I posted in Hebrews for you, then I am going to assume you just do not know and you are reading the Scriptures in pieces or parts that you prefer seeing from an askewed point of view.


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So we too have put our faith in Christ Jesus that we may be justified by faith in Christ and not by observing the law. Because by observing the law no one will be justified

If while we seek to be justified in Christ it becomes evident That we ourselves are sinners, does this mean That Christ promotes sin?
Absolutely not. If i rebuild what I destroyed I prove I am a lawbreaker


The moment you become a christian you are justified / righteous in Gods sight for you have a saviour from your sin. So what justification I Paul speaking of in the above?

In rom ch6 he tells us we come to Christ as slaves of sin, and must change to be slaves of righteousness, but This crossing over from one state to the other takes time, it I not instantaneous. In order for this to happen, certain sin must be dealt with for by its very nature it will consume us and stop us crossing over to where we need to be.
Paul states This justification is by faith in Christ, not observing the law( we strive to be justified by observing the law)
Aman becomes a christian, he has much evident sin in his life, God starts the process of changing him from one state to the other. While this is happening the man joins a church. He enthusiastically joins in the service worshipping and praising God with still glaring sin in his life he us trusting Jesus for victory over.
What would someone think who did not understand the gospel message of sanctification?
They would likely think Christ must promote sin if Thi man is in a saved state. For he I praising and worshipping God while an evident sinner. However, the man does not want the sin, he has been born again, the law is on his heart but he is still entitled to rejoice Christ is his saviour, while he trusts him to turn him into a slave of righteousness
Immediately after Paul asks the question:
Does Christ promote sin he answers it:
Absolutely not! If I rebuild what i destroyed I prove i am a lawbreaker
What has Paul sought to destroy? A law of righteousness. Therefore, if he rebuilt a law of righteousness and strove himself to defeat the sin in order to be justified before God he would fail, and simply prove he was a lawbreaker

Jason0047 said:

So what are those verses saying then if they do not mean what they plainly say at face value? For I have no problem reconciling the verses on Christ's death on our behalf (initial or ultimate salvation) versus say continuing in Christ's good ways (working thru me according to His Word). For Jesus saves both in Justification and Sanctification.

If you do not have a clear and easy to understand explanation on the verses I posted in Hebrews for you, then I am going to assume you just do not know and you are reading the Scriptures in pieces or parts that you prefer seeing from an askewed point of view.


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Explanation given