Once Saved Always Saved vs You Were Never Really Saved at All

seeker2122 · Nov 26, 2022

Think... said:
Once Saved Always Saved vs You Were Never Really Saved at All

Yes, there is a third case.

The Biblically accurate case. That of Once Saved, No Longer Saved.

Any Christian can lose their Salvation, and there are many who study this concept in-depth who would even claim that none of us are even actually saved until the very end, .... or not.

How 'bout Matthew 7:21-23? These are clearly believers, Christians, who are being rejected by Christ for living in habitual sin.

Paul even commented about the uncertainty of his Salvation.

There are countless passages in Scripture that bolster the case for losing one's Salvation.

John 15:1-6 is one of the most undeniable, but detractors, the OSAS agenda, will vehemently deny any proof that is presented.

Does the Bible speak anywhere of blotting one's name out of the Book of Life? Yes, it does. Yet another undeniable proof of losing one's Salvation.

The Bible speaks of the Wide road and the Narrow road. If this is not evidence of the majority of professed believing Christians being rejected, I don't know what is. AND, if OSAS is a Biblically sound doctrine, there would only be a Wide road by which the vast majority would be saved. Right?

I have to admit, the OSAS doctrine sounds more comforting and hope that would be true, but I tend to believe that you CAN fall out of salvation
as you mentioned above and those were very telling scripture verses. It is doubtful that it's more likely the case "you were never really saved" if you claim to fall out of salvation. When I was a youth, I accepted Christ and I know at that time I really did accept him. It wasn't a fake gesture just to publicly look good in front of others. But at the same time, I was a youth. How easy is it to make an impression on youths? I realize that it's very easy to just get all spiritual and emotionally high from a retreat or revival camp etc and then decide to accept Jesus but only a few weeks later when the feelings wear off and your old habits return, it makes you question whether or not you truly were saved OR if I had later on down the road doubted and rejected God and decided to continue to live in habitual sin. Does that mean I lost my salvation?

This would imply then that if one can lose their salvation, they would need to come back and re-accept Jesus again? Do I need to re-dedicate myself or pray the sinners prayer or do it in front of my church again? How many times are we allowed to lose salvation and then re-gain it?
Is there like a limit? Does God give up on you because this is the 10th time you re-accepted Jesus because by this point your just wasting his time and not fit to be his true disciple?

That's why I also asked long time ago in another thread, if there are such things as tiers in heaven because is it possible to still enter heaven as a "low level Christian?" In other words, maybe my faith is small, maybe I always sin and continue to but still try to follow Jesus and really believe in Jesus ....so I have little fruit to produce or show for, but can one still enter Heaven then as a small fry? Or does everyone that makes it into heaven have to be "big shots" christians?

Think... · Nov 26, 2022

seeker2122 said:
I have to admit, the OSAS doctrine sounds more comforting and hope that would be true, but I tend to believe that you CAN fall out of salvation
as you mentioned above and those were very telling scripture verses. It is doubtful that it's more likely the case "you were never really saved" if you claim to fall out of salvation. When I was a youth, I accepted Christ and I know at that time I really did accept him. It wasn't a fake gesture just to publicly look good in front of others. But at the same time, I was a youth. How easy is it to make an impression on youths? I realize that it's very easy to just get all spiritual and emotionally high from a retreat or revival camp etc and then decide to accept Jesus but only a few weeks later when the feelings wear off and your old habits return, it makes you question whether or not you truly were saved OR if I had later on down the road doubted and rejected God and decided to continue to live in habitual sin. Does that mean I lost my salvation?

This would imply then that if one can lose their salvation, they would need to come back and re-accept Jesus again? Do I need to re-dedicate myself or pray the sinners prayer or do it in front of my church again? How many times are we allowed to lose salvation and then re-gain it?
Is there like a limit? Does God give up on you because this is the 10th time you re-accepted Jesus because by this point your just wasting his time and not fit to be his true disciple?

That's why I also asked long time ago in another thread, if there are such things as tiers in heaven because is it possible to still enter heaven as a "low level Christian?" In other words, maybe my faith is small, maybe I always sin and continue to but still try to follow Jesus and really believe in Jesus ....so I have little fruit to produce or show for, but can one still enter Heaven then as a small fry? Or does everyone that makes it into heaven have to be "big shots" christians?

Those are very legitimate questions.

Honestly, I don't know the answer to all of them. But I do believe we can return to Christ, just like the Prodigal Son. I'm not sure what exactly it takes for God to give up on someone, if that's how it works, but remember that He sees the heart from a supernatural, even divine, perspective. That means not only can He see our deepest desires and level of sincerity and commitment, but He also knows the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10). It is difficult to imagine exactly how He works because, obviously, He is God. But I think He has allowed us to understand enough to deduce that He likely knows if we will remain True to Him in our hearts even in the darkest periods of our lives, when we venture the furthest from Him, or are struggling the most in this evil, fallen world.

I believe He takes all of that into account and He always meets us halfway, if you will. I believe that God often intends for those who believe, and trust, in Him to give all they've got to accomplish something, or to fight their way out of a difficult situation in life, and He picks up where our own strength and endurance falls off. Also, remember that Jesus taught that there are actually people in this world that God doesn't even consider His. (Matthew 13:38) That is not a parable, Jesus makes it clear that it is a literal teaching.

I would say if you care enough to be concerned about your standing with God, that is a promising sign. If you have any True sincere love for Him and all His Ways of goodness, righteousness and justice, He will not let you go too far astray. I believe it is those who choose this world, and the things of this world (1 John 2:15), at a very deep heart level, who He allows to go astray as they have chosen their own way. They have chosen to go the way of the world, and to cast aside all the Ways and promises of God Almighty.

You might even say, for whatever deep spiritual reason, that they do not have the capacity for a True Saving Faith.

didactics · Nov 26, 2022

seeker2122 said:
I have to admit, the OSAS doctrine sounds more comforting and hope that would be true, but I tend to believe that you CAN fall out of salvation
as you mentioned above and those were very telling scripture verses. It is doubtful that it's more likely the case "you were never really saved" if you claim to fall out of salvation. When I was a youth, I accepted Christ and I know at that time I really did accept him. It wasn't a fake gesture just to publicly look good in front of others. But at the same time, I was a youth. How easy is it to make an impression on youths? I realize that it's very easy to just get all spiritual and emotionally high from a retreat or revival camp etc and then decide to accept Jesus but only a few weeks later when the feelings wear off and your old habits return, it makes you question whether or not you truly were saved OR if I had later on down the road doubted and rejected God and decided to continue to live in habitual sin. Does that mean I lost my salvation?

This would imply then that if one can lose their salvation, they would need to come back and re-accept Jesus again? Do I need to re-dedicate myself or pray the sinners prayer or do it in front of my church again? How many times are we allowed to lose salvation and then re-gain it?
Is there like a limit? Does God give up on you because this is the 10th time you re-accepted Jesus because by this point your just wasting his time and not fit to be his true disciple?

That's why I also asked long time ago in another thread, if there are such things as tiers in heaven because is it possible to still enter heaven as a "low level Christian?" In other words, maybe my faith is small, maybe I always sin and continue to but still try to follow Jesus and really believe in Jesus ....so I have little fruit to produce or show for, but can one still enter Heaven then as a small fry? Or does everyone that makes it into heaven have to be "big shots" christians?

I can't answer the bulk of your questions. It sounds like you are leaning toward arminian theology. Perhaps you should look up John Wesley if you haven't heard of him. Wesleyanism is a teaching of John Wesley as he was a proponent of arminianism and a passionate preacher. There are actually different strains of arminianism. An old Wesleyan preacher today would be A. W. Tozer. As far as "low level Christians" remember the verse: Mt 11:11
There are no small fries in heaven, but you could say there are degrees of heaven and hell in its experience.

Think... · Nov 26, 2022

seeker2122 said:
I have to admit, the OSAS doctrine sounds more comforting and hope that would be true

I couldn't agree more and I too wish that were the case.

I also wish all Christians everywhere could agree on the same doctrines, but unfortunately, we have divisions and wolves that divide us, ... just as the Bible told us we would.

PSUseagull · Nov 26, 2022

sandman said:
I think you worded your OP correctly ..... there is no verse that states "once saved always saved" but all indications are exactly that.

The question is: If salvation (the spirit of God within) can be lost ….what is the line of demarcation. There would have to be some point other than the unforgivable sin, because that does not apply to a born again believer. But what would the line be that is crossed to lose salvation ….there is nothing in the Word that describes any such point….And the fact that we did nothing (no works) to earn salvation how could there be any lack of works that would cause us to lose it…

The saying "Once saved always saved" posits the belief that God will save some against their will. That is, those who change their mind will be forced into heaven even if they don't want to be there. I find it hard to believe that God is some kind of tyrant.

Roymond · Nov 26, 2022

sandman said:
I think you worded your OP correctly ..... there is no verse that states "once saved always saved" but all indications are exactly that.

The question is: If salvation (the spirit of God within) can be lost ….what is the line of demarcation. There would have to be some point other than the unforgivable sin, because that does not apply to a born again believer. But what would the line be that is crossed to lose salvation ….there is nothing in the Word that describes any such point….And the fact that we did nothing (no works) to earn salvation how could there be any lack of works that would cause us to lose it…

This is where the ancient Catholic idea of Purgatory came from: no evil works are enough to tear us away from God, but it may be necessary to tear them away from us, i.e. purge all traces of sin.

Roymond · Nov 26, 2022

Tuur said:
It is. OSAS is a doctrinal point, not a substitute for the Gospel.

The issue of Eternal Security is one I've wondered about. OSAS is along the lines of if we are saved by perseverance in the faith, then it becomes a work.

As observed in this topic, that shifts the question to whether someone is really saved. I've struggled with that, too. Yet the point of faith is in Who we trust and not the faith itself. I trust in Jesus Christ, not my level of faith, though I pray for my faith and my belief to increase.

Several weeks ago, while fretting over the related issue of the elect, it occurred to me that it's like when Peter looked at John and said to Jesus, "What about him?" Jesus' answer was:

"Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? follow thou me."
- John 21:22, ASV

I was overlooking the most important thing: When we are called to Christ, we are to follow.

This reminded me of how a Jesuit priest I knew once explained it, for at the time of the Reformation: Lutherans said that Jesus bought them a place to live, and they don't have to do anything to keep it; Catholics said Jesus bought it but we have to pay rent.

Roymond · Nov 26, 2022

Pipp@ said:
Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come— 6 and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

This is one of the passages that had many early Christians arguing that Hebrews shouldn't be in the canon. The resolution of that issue was that Hebrews (and the other books that were argued against) were to always be interpreted in the light of the fully accepted books, especially the Gospels.

YahuahSaves · Nov 26, 2022

Roymond said:
This is one of the passages that had many early Christians arguing that Hebrews shouldn't be in the canon. The resolution of that issue was that Hebrews (and the other books that were argued against) were to always be interpreted in the light of the fully accepted books, especially the Gospels.

What are you implying by that?

For the case of unbelievers, Jesus said:

Luke 10

16Then he said to the disciples, “Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.”

For the case of believers, Jesus said:

Mathew 7

21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

And this is (what I believe) Jesus was saying to everyone:

Mathew 10

32 “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

34 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!’[l]

37 “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

40 “Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me. 41 If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God,[m] you will be given the same reward as a prophet. And if you receive righteous people because of their righteousness, you will be given a reward like theirs. 42 And if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my followers, you will surely be rewarded.”

I don’t know about you, but I won't argue with Jesus.

dqhall · Nov 26, 2022

boydwgrossii said:
From

DOCTRINES OF GRACE – CATEGORIZED SCRIPTURE LIST

Perseverance of the Saints
1. What God begins, he finishes
Psa 138:8 The LORD will perfect that which concerneth me: thy mercy, O LORD, endureth for ever: forsake not the works of thine own hands.
Ecc 3:14 I know that, whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, nor any thing taken from it: and God doeth it, that men should fear before him.
Isa 46:4 And even to your old age I am he; and even to hoar hairs will I carry you: I have made, and I will bear; even I will carry, and will deliver you.
Jer 32:40 And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from them, to do them good; but I will put my fear in their hearts, that they shall not depart from me.
Rom 11:29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
Phi 1:6 Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:
2Ti 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
2. Of all whom he has called and brought to Christ, none will be lost
Joh 6:39-40 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Joh 10:27-29 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.
Rom 8:28-31 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
Rom 8:35-39 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
3. God's preservation of the saints is not irrespective of their continuance in the faith
1Co 6:9-10 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
Gal 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
Eph 5:5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:4-6 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
Heb 10:26-27 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:
Rev 21:7-8 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Rev 22:14-15 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
4. However, it is God who sanctifies us and causes us to persevere
Joh 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
1Co 1:30-31 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption: That, according as it is written, He that glorieth, let him glory in the Lord.
1Co 6:11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
1Co 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
1Co 15:10 But by the grace of God I am what I am: and his grace which was bestowed upon me was not in vain; but I laboured more abundantly than they all: yet not I, but the grace of God which was with me.
Gal 3:1-6 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain. He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
Phi 2:12-13 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
1Th 5:23-24 And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.
Heb 13:20-21 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant, Make you perfect in every good work to do his will, working in you that which is wellpleasing in his sight, through Jesus Christ; to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
1Jo 2:29 If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.
Jud 1:24-25 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

Matthew 7:13 “Enter in by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter in by it.”

Matthew 22:14 “For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Matthew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor Leviticus 19:18 and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same?

Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.”

Think... · Nov 27, 2022

@PSUseagull

the unforgivable sin, ... does not apply to a born again believer.

I believe it does actually. Just a different perspective to ponder.

The Bible says the unforgivable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

There are many Christians today being brainwashed to believe that Christ is not God. I believe those who are convinced of this are having their candle put out, IF they remain in this unbelief in Christ until death.

Christ, the Christ, means the Messiah. If we look closely at OT explanations, and designations, it is clear that the Prophets of old believed the coming Messiah to be God.

It is said that Messiah means Anointed One. This still supports my point. The Bible refers to the anointing as the receiving of the Holy Spirit and 1 John 2:27 describes this anointing as a Teacher of all things.

Jesus also claims to be that anointing in John 14:21-23.

Consider Isaiah 9:6 A child is born, a son is given, His Name shall be Counsellor (Holy Spirit per John 14:16), The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

What exactly does it bear out if Christ is not God? Well, it means Jesus was just a man, He had no divine attributes whatsoever, He had no divine Spirit that He could send into later believers and that Spirit that lived a sinless life, the Spirit that covers over our sinful spirit and guides our spirit into obedience and righteousness, does not exist.

So, now, we see that if a man has this Holy Spirit and is tricked/convinced/brainwashed by modern trendy heresy to believe that Christ is NOT God, He is effectively believing that the Spirit He holds is not divine at all and thus does not exist.

This belief is effectively a bullet straight to the heart of the Salvation of Christians who buy into this lie. And that is why it is such a profoundly dangerous heresy.

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."
Mark 3:28-29

Personally, I also believe this is what John 3:16 is really all about. Believing in Jesus is one thing. Even the demons believe and shudder. But believing that Jesus IS GOD is really the ultimate avenue for allowing and accepting all the profound Truths of the Gospel.

We must believe that Jesus is God in order to properly give God the glory, praise and worship He so richly deserves for all that He has done upon the earth for those who love Him. His selflessness, His willingness to lower Himself to the fallen earth plane, to humble Himself enough to come into a sinful flesh body and become obedient and suffer rejection from His own, ridicule, humiliation, verbal and physical abuse of all kinds, torture and murder for being 100% innocent and sinless.

It is paramount that we believe Jesus is God in order for God to receive proper acknowledgment for His unimaginable sacrifice. Believing otherwise forfeits our eligibility for Salvation.

didactics · Nov 27, 2022

I think what we should also discuss is our differences in understanding the order of regeneration and conversion. Calvinists would put it this way: Regeneration is the cause, and conversion is the effect. Put another way, regeneration is the root and conversion is the fruit.
The Arminian view is that faith in Christ produces regeneration.

For Arminians, God does not regenerate people in order for them to believe, for there must be genuine free will, and the call to believe would be pointless otherwise. Though, Arminius himself held to the doctrine of total depravity and the need of God’s grace to initiate the human will to turn to God. The Wesleyan-Arminian position has it that because of the first coming and atoning work of Christ, God has dispensed a universal prevenient grace that fully negates the depravity of man. Thus, man is now in a neutral state.

Other terms to consider is monergism vs synergism. If one tends to unconditional election, then one tends toward a monergistic view of salvation. The other view is that salvation is based on God's foreknowledge of who would believe in Him. This is a concept that has been discussed in church history before the Synod of Dort.

Roymond · Nov 27, 2022

Pipp@ said:
What are you implying by that?

For the case of unbelievers, Jesus said:

Luke 10

16Then he said to the disciples, “Anyone who accepts your message is also accepting me. And anyone who rejects you is rejecting me. And anyone who rejects me is rejecting God, who sent me.”

For the case of believers, Jesus said:

Mathew 7

21 “Not everyone who calls out to me, ‘Lord! Lord!’ will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter. 22 On judgment day many will say to me, ‘Lord! Lord! We prophesied in your name and cast out demons in your name and performed many miracles in your name.’ 23 But I will reply, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you who break God’s laws.’

And this is (what I believe) Jesus was saying to everyone:

Mathew 10

32 “Everyone who acknowledges me publicly here on earth, I will also acknowledge before my Father in heaven. 33 But everyone who denies me here on earth, I will also deny before my Father in heaven.

34 “Don’t imagine that I came to bring peace to the earth! I came not to bring peace, but a sword.

35 ‘I have come to set a man against his father,
a daughter against her mother,
and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law.
36 Your enemies will be right in your own household!’[l]

37 “If you love your father or mother more than you love me, you are not worthy of being mine; or if you love your son or daughter more than me, you are not worthy of being mine. 38 If you refuse to take up your cross and follow me, you are not worthy of being mine. 39 If you cling to your life, you will lose it; but if you give up your life for me, you will find it.

40 “Anyone who receives you receives me, and anyone who receives me receives the Father who sent me. 41 If you receive a prophet as one who speaks for God,[m] you will be given the same reward as a prophet. And if you receive righteous people because of their righteousness, you will be given a reward like theirs. 42 And if you give even a cup of cold water to one of the least of my followers, you will surely be rewarded.”

I don’t know about you, but I won't argue with Jesus.

The Hebrews passage lends itself too easily to claiming that any 'backsliding' means you're no longer saved. That leads pretty easily to legalism.

For that matter, I've seen the Luke 10 and Matthew 10 passages lead to some pretty nasty self-righteousness -- and Luke 10 doesn't apply to us, it was for a specific situation, and applying to it all believers definitely feeds self-righteousness.

Just BTW, what translation is that for Matthew 7? I'm not impressed by what it does to the last clause.

Roymond · Nov 27, 2022

Think... said:
@PSUseagull

I believe it does actually. Just a different perspective to ponder.

The Bible says the unforgivable sin is the sin against the Holy Spirit.

There are many Christians today being brainwashed to believe that Christ is not God. I believe those who are convinced of this are having their candle put out, IF they remain in this unbelief in Christ until death.

Christ, the Christ, means the Messiah. If we look closely at OT explanations, and designations, it is clear that the Prophets of old believed the coming Messiah to be God.

It is said that Messiah means Anointed One. This still supports my point. The Bible refers to the anointing as the receiving of the Holy Spirit and 1 John 2:27 describes this anointing as a Teacher of all things.

Jesus also claims to be that anointing in John 14:21-23.

Consider Isaiah 9:6 A child is born, a son is given, His Name shall be Counsellor (Holy Spirit per John 14:16), The Mighty God, The Everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

What exactly does it bear out if Christ is not God? Well, it means Jesus was just a man, He had no divine attributes whatsoever, He had no divine Spirit that He could send into later believers and that Spirit that lived a sinless life, the Spirit that covers over our sinful spirit and guides our spirit into obedience and righteousness, does not exist.

So, now, we see that if a man has this Holy Spirit and is tricked/convinced/brainwashed by modern trendy heresy to believe that Christ is NOT God, He is effectively believing that the Spirit He holds is not divine at all and thus does not exist.

This belief is effectively a bullet straight to the heart of the Salvation of Christians who buy into this lie. And that is why it is such a profoundly dangerous heresy.

"Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation."
Mark 3:28-29

Personally, I also believe this is what John 3:16 is really all about. Believing in Jesus is one thing. Even the demons believe and shudder. But believing that Jesus IS GOD is really the ultimate avenue for allowing and accepting all the profound Truths of the Gospel.

We must believe that Jesus is God in order to properly give God the glory, praise and worship He so richly deserves for all that He has done upon the earth for those who love Him. His selflessness, His willingness to lower Himself to the fallen earth plane, to humble Himself enough to come into a sinful flesh body and become obedient and suffer rejection from His own, ridicule, humiliation, verbal and physical abuse of all kinds, torture and murder for being 100% innocent and sinless.

It is paramount that we believe Jesus is God in order for God to receive proper acknowledgment for His unimaginable sacrifice. Believing otherwise forfeits our eligibility for Salvation.

(emphases mine)

"There are many Christians today being brainwashed to believe that Christ is not God"

This is why the core of the Chalcedonian Definition is so important: without it, it is too easy to fall into Modalism or Adoptionism or Apollinarianism or other errors. No one should preach or teach who does not understand this:

"... that our Lord Jesus Christ is to us One and the same Son, the Self-same Perfect in Godhead, the Self-same Perfect in Manhood; truly God and truly Man; the Self-same of a rational soul and body; co-essential with the Father according to the Godhead, the Self-same co-essential with us according to the Manhood; like us in all things, sin apart; before the ages begotten of the Father as to the Godhead, but in the last days, the Self-same, for us and for our salvation (born) of Mary the Virgin Theotokos as to the Manhood; One and the Same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten; acknowledged in Two Natures unconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably; the difference of the Natures being in no way removed because of the Union, but rather the properties of each Nature being preserved, and (both) concurring into One Person and One Hypostasis; not as though He was parted or divided into Two Persons, but One and the Self-same Son and Only-begotten God, Word, Lord, Jesus Christ; even as from the beginning the prophets have taught concerning Him, and as the Lord Jesus Christ Himself hath taught us..."

note: I underlined "in" to note that the minority at Chalcedon preferred "from", but the only difference was emphasis; one side faced one heresy primarily while the other faced another, and the choice of preposition was seen as favoring one or the other -- there was actually no substantial agreement. I bolded the key elements.

- + - † - + -

"What exactly does it bear out if Christ is not God"

To the Fathers, it meant he was no Redeemer; as Gregory (Nazianzen, IIRC)put it, "What He did not assume, He could not redeem"†; where "redeem" here is including the Old Testament concept of a redeemer as one who is close(st) kin to both parties. So if Jesus was not God, he was not close kin to God, and could not make peace between God and us, plus if he was not God then he was limited to being a human individual, and thus however sinless he could not transfer his sinlessness to us, and thus could not change human nature.

† elsewhere stated as "What He did not assume, He could not heal", but the above version addresses this point more directly.

Roymond · Nov 28, 2022

didactics said:
I think what we should also discuss is our differences in understanding the order of regeneration and conversion. Calvinists would put it this way: Regeneration is the cause, and conversion is the effect. Put another way, regeneration is the root and conversion is the fruit.
The Arminian view is that faith in Christ produces regeneration.

For Arminians, God does not regenerate people in order for them to believe, for there must be genuine free will, and the call to believe would be pointless otherwise. Though, Arminius himself held to the doctrine of total depravity and the need of God’s grace to initiate the human will to turn to God. The Wesleyan-Arminian position has it that because of the first coming and atoning work of Christ, God has dispensed a universal prevenient grace that fully negates the depravity of man. Thus, man is now in a neutral state.

Other terms to consider is monergism vs synergism. If one tends to unconditional election, then one tends toward a monergistic view of salvation. The other view is that salvation is based on God's foreknowledge of who would believe in Him. This is a concept that has been discussed in church history before the Synod of Dort.

I can't remember which ancient Father said it, but in today's terms one made a comment to the effect that there is no "order", there is just one event that we require limited human words to try to describe. The East adheres to that, regarding it all as an ongoing process with but two steps: the light of the Gospel shines on a person sick in sin, enough that the person can surrender the fight into the hands of the Incarnate Crucified One, and the journey begins. So regeneration and conversion and sanctification are all aspects of a process that begins with surrender -- and faith is that surrender, an ongoing process just as the rest. I think it was Charles Finney who said we don't surrender at the Cross just once, we must remain surrendered moment by moment. When we fail in surrendering, the "old man" pops up again, and to use Luther's term we must die to him, drowning him anew in the waters of our Baptism.

BTW, this does away with the whole "neutral state" notion: we are either dead in sin or alive in Christ, and we can only be alive in Christ due to the light of the Gospel. When that light shines on us there is life and we can choose; when that light does not shine on a person, that person is dead. We in the West got into trouble by treating the matter in legal terms (it's no surprise since a number of major theological figures in the West were trained in law). To a lawyer, different words point to distinct or even different things, so if the Apostles used different words (which they did)‡ then those words must refer to distinct or different things. But in the spiritual tradition that began long before it became established in the rabbinic system, in order to understand anything of God we have no choice but to use multiple words for any spiritual phenomenon because no human word can ultimately encompass fully any divine matter. So the East sees new life in Christ that requires multiple words to describe it while we poor Westerners are distracted by chopping that new life into pieces.

‡ A pet piece of mine in discussing theology is that we have no word that serves the way εἰ (ei) does in Greek as Paul uses it, meaning both "if" and "sonce" at the same time! I could have written " εἰ the Apostles used different words" and gotten both meanings at once.

jcpartri · Nov 28, 2022

From the Reformed faith, we believe that the Bible clearly teaches that salvation, all of it from beginning to end, is a total work of God's grace.
We know from scripture that "He who began a good work in you will bring you to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philipians 1:6.
In other words, since our salvation is God's work, he WILL complete it if He has begun it by regeneration of the person, and the gift of faith to believe. Unrepentant sin, where there is no evidence of the discipline of the Holy Spirit is strong evidence that this work was not begun. In other words, the person professes to have true faith, but does not in truth possess it.

Once Saved, Always Saved?

Listen to a discussion about eternal security and you'll eventually hear this question: "Are you saying that since we're secure as Christians, we can...

www.gty.org

Think... · Nov 28, 2022

jcpartri said:
From the Reformed faith, we believe that the Bible clearly teaches that salvation, all of it from beginning to end, is a total work of God's grace.
We know from scripture that "He who began a good work in you will bring you to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philipians 1:6.
In other words, since our salvation is God's work, he WILL complete it if He has begun it by regeneration of the person, and the gift of faith to believe. Unrepentant sin, where there is no evidence of the discipline of the Holy Spirit is strong evidence that this work was not begun. In other words, the person professes to have true faith, but does not in truth possess it.

Once Saved, Always Saved?

Listen to a discussion about eternal security and you'll eventually hear this question: "Are you saying that since we're secure as Christians, we can...

www.gty.org

Why does it take faith to cast out demons in Jesus' Name?

Can't an atheist, who doesn't believe in Jesus or demons, cast out demons just fine?

Roymond · Nov 28, 2022

jcpartri said:
From the Reformed faith, we believe that the Bible clearly teaches that salvation, all of it from beginning to end, is a total work of God's grace.
We know from scripture that "He who began a good work in you will bring you to completion at the day of Jesus Christ." Philipians 1:6.
In other words, since our salvation is God's work, he WILL complete it if He has begun it by regeneration of the person, and the gift of faith to believe. Unrepentant sin, where there is no evidence of the discipline of the Holy Spirit is strong evidence that this work was not begun. In other words, the person professes to have true faith, but does not in truth possess it.

Once Saved, Always Saved?

Listen to a discussion about eternal security and you'll eventually hear this question: "Are you saying that since we're secure as Christians, we can...

www.gty.org

Unfortunately the Reformed faith denies the full efficacy of the Blood of Christ, which is more than a bit blasphemous.

didactics · Nov 28, 2022

Roymond said:
Unfortunately the Reformed faith denies the full efficacy of the Blood of Christ, which is more than a bit blasphemous.

I don't know much of what reformed Christianity teaches. From what I understand, those who are reformed are Calvinist, but not all Calvinists are reformed. I certainly never had any reason to believe there is any major error in their views.

Think... · Nov 28, 2022

Roymond said:
This reminded me of how a Jesuit priest I knew once explained it, for at the time of the Reformation: Lutherans said that Jesus bought them a place to live, and they don't have to do anything to keep it; Catholics said Jesus bought it but we have to pay rent.

What do you say?

And I was pretty sure Catholics were heavy OSAS supporters.

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