Once Saved Always Saved: True, False, or Misrepresented?

[squint]

Romans 11:11-23
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I make much of my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.

17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

2 Timothy 2:10
10 Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.

No one is going to dispute scriptures. Not in this section of threads anyway.

It was pointed out earlier that falling in this present life does not mean eternal loss of salvation NOR does a single scripture you cite imply otherwise or other than a fall in this life. Most OSAS adherents acknowledge that as a definite possibility.

I would also note a matter of interest to you from one of your citings, that those of Israel who were blinded unbelievers, enemies of the Gospel, those 'cut off' in this present life can:

A. Be grafted back in
B. Shall be saved post death in any case

Yeah, enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel shall ALL be saved according to Paul in Romans 11:25-30. That alone pretty well drives a Mack Truck sized hole in your guesswork on this subject matter.

s

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

No one is going to dispute scriptures. Not in this section of threads anyway.

It was pointed out earlier that falling in this present life does not mean eternal loss of salvation NOR does a single scripture you cite imply otherwise or other than a fall in this life. Most OSAS adherents acknowledge that as a definite possibility.

I would also note a matter of interest to you from one of your citings, that those of Israel who were blinded unbelievers, enemies of the Gospel, those 'cut off' in this present life can:

A. Be grafted back in
B. Shall be saved post death in any case

Yeah, enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel shall ALL be saved according to Paul in Romans 11:25-30. That alone pretty well drives a Mack Truck sized hole in your guesswork on this subject matter.

s

What he said. And he said it very well.

 

[allykelly07]

I'm beginning to wonder if Christians in GENERAL agree 100% all the time on ANYTHING lol

It is possible. If we all have the mind of Christ, and conform to Him and His word as we should, we would be the body connected to the head, and the head cannot have different thoughts. The problem is that, no one wants to be wrong, and just say, God is right, and everyone is wrong but God. That tears down the flesh, and it is the hardest thing to do.

 

[squint]

So what's your point? Do you think Catholics agree 100% all the time on everything?

Heh heh.

Well if they want to avoid embarrasing themselves they might want to consider the fact that such a belief is a heresy in the RCC.

The best they have to offer is maybe salvation, maybe not, with a strong lean to reasonable assurance. That's all you get to officially have without being in conflict with their infallible determinations.

Though I personally find it quite odd that people who don't know for sure if they are saved can be 'reasonably assured' of much of anything and even odder how a group of people who don't know if they are saved can determine beyond any doubt the status of Sainthood (cough cough) that is their official position.

To believe other than that is automatic heresy. So if you are here to belittle and slur their position you're doing a fine job. I'm surprised they don't take issue with you, sympathetic as I am to the validity of your own sight.

s

 

[allykelly07]

No one is going to dispute scriptures. Not in this section of threads anyway.

It was pointed out earlier that falling in this present life does not mean eternal loss of salvation NOR does a single scripture you cite imply otherwise or other than a fall in this life. Most OSAS adherents acknowledge that as a definite possibility.

I would also note a matter of interest to you from one of your citings, that those of Israel who were blinded unbelievers, enemies of the Gospel, those 'cut off' in this present life can:

A. Be grafted back in
B. Shall be saved post death in any case

Yeah, enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel shall ALL be saved according to Paul in Romans 11:25-30. That alone pretty well drives a Mack Truck sized hole in your guesswork on this subject matter.

s

Those verse speaking of grafting back in again, were speaking of israel, not the gentiles.



Hebrews 6:1-6
6 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death,[a] and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so.

4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

Now you say that falling away doesn't mean loss of salvation, but that verse clearly states that if someone falls away, they cannot be brought back to repentance, it would be like crucifying the son of God all over again.

 

[motherprayer]

I don't think so.

(I'm somewhat of a Calvinist, attending a holiness Wesleyan Church with my husband and children)

Well hello there! We agree on some things

I'm a not Calvinist, but the other Calvinists here swear I'm on the verge of conversion lol it is very nice to meet you!

 

[motherprayer]

It is possible. If we all have the mind of Christ, and conform to Him and His word as we should, we would be the body connected to the head, and the head cannot have different thoughts. The problem is that, no one wants to be wrong, and just say, God is right, and everyone is wrong but God. That tears down the flesh, and it is the hardest thing to do.

Yea. Amen.

 

[squint]

Those verse speaking of grafting back in again, were speaking of israel, not the gentiles.

You are not paying attention to what was stated.

In Romans 11:25-30 Paul says that all of Israel shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel.

All can only encompass those saved and those not, enemies of the Gospel. Paul specifies enemies of the Gospel are saved in the 'all.'

It's right there in black and white if you'd care to read it.

Now you say that falling away doesn't mean loss of salvation, but that verse clearly states that if someone falls away, they cannot be brought back to repentance, it would be like crucifying the son of God all over again.

It says no such thing. Gods Mercy Endures Forever. He certainly is shown to save PAST THE GRAVE as it pertains to all of Israel. And NO believer is shown to have eternally lost their salvation anywhere in the text, period. That's all and entirely a trumped up position that has no specificity to any believing person as a sure example. Which same I'm sure we would have been provided were it truthful and factual.

Even Moses died of unbelief in the desert. Do you think Moses is damned forever?

LOL

s

 

[allykelly07]

You are not paying attention to what was stated.

In Romans 11:25-30 Paul says that all of Israel shall be saved, even enemies of the Gospel.

All can only encompass those saved and those not, enemies of the Gospel. Paul specifies enemies of the Gospel are saved in the 'all.'

It's right there in black and white if you'd care to read it.

It says no such thing. Gods Mercy Endures Forever. He certainly is shown to save PAST THE GRAVE as it pertains to all of Israel. And NO believer is shown to have eternally lost their salvation anywhere in the text, period. That's all and entirely a trumped up position that has no specificity to any believing person as a sure example. Which same I'm sure we would have been provided were it truthful and factual.

Even Moses died of unbelief in the desert. Do you think Moses is damned forever?

LOL

s

The enemies of the gospel is Israel. That is exactly what it says. If you are going to make this a joke, I will refuse to speak with you. "Speak the word with all seriousness." In Hebrews 10, it literally says, that we can treat, as an unholy thing, the blood of the covenant that sanctified us. You can't get around that. It's right there, whether you say it is or not, it's there. Everywhere in scripture are warnings to believers to be careful. To continue, and stand firm till the end. To not lose hope.

James 1:12
Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.

 

[allykelly07]

It says no such thing.

You refute and deny scripture, with your own words, as if they are better than the word of God.

Hebrews 6:4-6
It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

It does say such a thing.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Well hello there! We agree on some things

I'm a not Calvinist, but the other Calvinists here swear I'm on the verge of conversion lol it is very nice to meet you!

It's nice to meet you too.

 

[squint]

The enemies of the gospel is Israel. That is exactly what it says.

So you at least acknowledge that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel are in fact saved?

If you are going to make this a joke, I will refuse to speak with you.

I prefer to reason with other believers from the Word. How about you?

Do you insist that I can no longer love a fellow believer who has fallen, hoping in faith that my own prayers for their eternal salvation would be answered and that they would also be restored in this present life?

or must I insist that without any doubt such are damned who have been taken by Satan at his will?

Think about what you are doing in your efforts. What you hope upon others is in fact what you may get.

"Speak the word with all seriousness." In Hebrews 10, it literally says, that we can treat, as an unholy thing, the blood of the covenant that sanctified us. You can't get around that. It's right there, whether you say it is or not, it's there. Everywhere in scripture are warnings to believers to be careful. To continue, and stand firm till the end. To not lose hope.

There is nothing there indicating that believer is eternally lost. Sorry that you think you see something that isn't there. It is very likely they could die in unbelief, which as we know means that the god of this world has blinded their minds. 2 Cor. 4:4. It is quite pointless to see them apart from their position as fallen faith warriors.

I am not a fan of eternally killing my past faithful warriors. How about you?

???

Do you think Moses, who died of/in UNBELIEF, is now or will be in the future burning alive in tormenting fire?

Think about it before you respond please. I am not fond of doctrinal drones who have not thought these things through.

s

 

[allykelly07]

So you at least acknowledge that enemies of the Gospel as it pertains to Israel are in fact saved?

I prefer to reason with other believers from the Word. How about you?

Do you insist that I can no longer love a fellow believer who has fallen, hoping in faith that my own prayers for their eternal salvation would be answered and that they would also be restored in this present life?

or must I insist that without any doubt such are damned who have been taken by Satan at his will?

Think about what you are doing in your efforts. What you hope upon others is in fact what you may get.

There is nothing there indicating that believer is eternally lost. Sorry that you think you see something that isn't there. It is very likely they could die in unbelief, which as we know means that the god of this world has blinded their minds. 2 Cor. 4:4. It is quite pointless to see them apart from their position as fallen faith warriors.

I am not a fan of eternally killing my past faithful warriors. How about you?

???

Do you think Moses, who died of/in UNBELIEF, is now or will be in the future burning alive in tormenting fire?

Think about it before you respond please. I am not fond of doctrinal drones who have not thought these things through.

s

Read the verses I have given, I have no need to say anything else. Judge for yourself where Moses is, according to the word. That verse says, that they cannot come back to repentance. Do you not understand how that means they can't be forgiven any longer?

Hebrews 10
26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”[d] and again, “The Lord will judge his people.”[e] 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Hebrews 2:1-4

1 We must pay more careful attention, therefore, to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away. 2 For if the message spoken by angels was binding, and every violation and disobedience received its just punishment, 3 how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. 4 God also testified to it by signs, wonders and various miracles, and gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will.

I have nothing further to say to you, except that I hope you will read these verses, and be convinced by God, knowing that neither you NOR I, are right, but God, and His word is.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Once we come to know Christ, we have a choice daily, of sowing to the Spirit, or to the sinful nature. There are many verses that say we can walk away. If only people weren't so stubborn towards the word. You start believing that you can't fall away, then that is exactly when satan comes, to tempt and draw you away, and it is by our own choice, that someone falls away.

1 Corinthians 10:11-15
11 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come.
12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall. 13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. 14 Therefore, my beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge for yourselves what I say.

does not relate to salvation. it relates to general trials.

2 Peter 2:19-21
19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity—for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.

This speaks of the tares who entered the wheat field . it doesn't talk about those planted with the good seed .

Matthew 10:33
But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.

not related to salvation. mark gospel indicates its related to being able to pray in Jesus name to get stuff done.

“Teacher,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we told him to stop, because he was not one of us.” “Do not stop him,” Jesus said. “For no one who does a miracle in my name can in the next moment say anything bad about me, (Mark 9:38-39)

Hebrews 10:26-30
If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,” and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

It is a like comparison. the people died who rebelled against moses when holding the censers and consumed with a consuming fire.

This is like in the letter to Thyatira in Revelation, it speaks of a temporal circumstance in which the woman Jezebel a prophetess teaches the congregants to sin. so it was determined all who continued in adultery with her would be put on a bed of pain and all their children would be put to death .. the pronouncement there is much like the tone in this passage.

it isn't speaking of the second death . it's speaking of the first death of which is written

because anyone who has died has been set free from sin. (Romans 6:7)

The purification of the Lord is killing the sin out of them. Its a redemptive process, because the people are in a place that is much like the proverbial "chambers of death" the tone of fear is also redemptive because it is trying to save their lives.

 

[gideons300]

I came across this question while surfing the web on the topic of OSAS and it intrigues me :

"If a Christian is in bed with a prostitute committing adultery, and during the very act of intercourse a stray bullet from the gun of a drive-by shooter strikes him in the head and kills him instantly, will he go to heaven or hell?"

I was wondering what you guys thought .

I think it best first and foremost to search out the word for the answers it offers.


Hebrews 10:38-39 Now the just shall live by faith: but IF any man DRAW BACK, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

Hebrews 3:6 But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, IF we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:12=14 Take heed, BRETHREN, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, IN DEPARTING FROM THE LIVING GOD. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, IF we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast UNTO THE END.

Hebrews 4:1 Let us therefore fear, lest, a promise being left us of entering into his rest, any of you should seem to COME SHORT OF IT.

Hebrews 4:8-11 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man FALL after the same example of unbelief.

Hebrews 6:4-9 For IT IS IMPOSSIBLE for those who were once enlightened, and HAVE TASTED OF THE HEAVENLY GIFT, AND WERE MADE PARTAKERS OF THE HOLY GHOST, And HAVE TASTED the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, IF THEY SHALL FALL AWAY, TO RENEW THEM AGAIN UNTO REPENTANCE; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29 For if we sin wilfully AFTER that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, WHEREWITH HE WAS SANCTIFIED, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Hebrews 12:13-17 And make straight paths for your feet, lest that which is lame be turned out of the way; but let it rather be healed. Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord: LOOKING DILIGENTLY LEST ANY MAN FAIL OF THE GRACE OF GOD; lest any root of bitterness springing up trouble you, and thereby many be defiled; LEST THERE BE ANY FORNICATOR, OR PROFANE PERSON, AS ESAU, who for one morsel of meat sold his birthright. For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for HE FOUND NO PLACE OF REPENTANCE, though he sought it carefully with tears.

1 Thessalonians 3:5 For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain.

2 Peter 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election SURE: for IF ye do these things, ye shall never FALL:

2 Peter 3:17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being LED AWAY with the error of the wicked, FALL from your own stedfastness.

2 Peter 2:20-22 For if AFTER THEY HAVE ESCAPED THE POLLUTIONS OF THE WORLD THROUGH THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE LORD AND SAVIOUR JESUS CHRIST, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, AFTER THEY HAVE KNOWN IT, TO TURN from the holy commandment delivered unto them. But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

Colossians 1:22 In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: IF YE CONTINUE in the faith grounded and settled, and BE NOT MOVED AWAY from the hope of the gospels, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister.

1 John 2:24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. IF that which ye have heard from the beginning SHALL REMAIN IN YOU, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.

Romans 11:19-23 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE in his goodness: OTHERWISE THOU ALSO SHALT BE CUT OFF. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.

1 Corinthians 15:1-2 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved, IF ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

2 John 1:8-9 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and ABIDETH NOT in the doctrine of Christ, HATH NOT GOD. HE THAT ABIDETH in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
Romans 2:6-10 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: To them who BY PATIENT CONTINUANCE IN WELL DOING seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Is that sufficient for us? Wait, there is more.

Paul said that he kept his body under lest after preaching to others, he himself might become a castaway.

And what of the virgins with no oil, and the ones who said "Lord, Lord, have we not..... and his response was not what they expected to hear.

The soil that sprouted the good seed and sprang to life, that same seed was choked out by the cares of this life.

The man who failed to "dig deep" had his life washed away when the storm hit.

The soil that was shallow had good seed sprout but died when it got too hot in the kitchen

The man who made no gain with the gift the good master had entrusted to him had what he was given taken away and given to another.

The man who was a hearer of the word but not a doer deceived his own self.

The goats fully expected to hear a hearty well done, but were disappointed.

Now, it is our job to not preach our doctrine that we have been taught, but believe the words of our God. Will we?

Now, lest fear drive out any vestiges of faith in our hearts and we feel insecure in this LL TO EVIDENT truth of our Christian faith, I will post again as to the way we can walk fearlessly and not be afraid of all those conditional "IF's". God has a safe place for every single one of us.

Blessings,

Gideon

 

[Albion]

(I'm somewhat of a Calvinist, attending a holiness Wesleyan Church with my husband and children)

Aren't those more or less opposites? Maybe just on the salvation issue.

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

Aren't those more or less opposites? Maybe just on the salvation issue.

Yes they are. And it's a long story about how I, a somewhat Calvinist, ended up attending a Wesleyan holiness Church.

 

[Albion]

Yes they are. And it's a long story about how I, a somewhat Calvinist, ended up attending a Wesleyan holiness Church.

I have no desire to second-guess your choice of church, but I thought it was being suggested that Calvin, the supreme advocate of Predestination, and Wesley, one of history's most persuasive advocates for Free Will, were somehow natural allies. Their views on how to live in society have some similarities, though, I recognize.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1st John 1:9)

 

[DiligentlySeekingGod]

If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. (1st John 1:9)

Amen.

1 John 5:9-13 "9 If we receive the witness of men, the witness of God is greater; for this is the witness of God which He has testified of His Son. 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God." (emphasis mine)