Once Saved Always Saved (OSAS) or Keep the faith until the end?

[Spiritual Jew]

'For the sins of the whole world' is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general.

LOL. You might as well say to me "Please don't take me seriously because I'm not being serious and just stating nonsense". How does "mankind in general" not include every single individual?

Did you miss that it says He was made an atoning sacrifice NOT FOR OUR SINS ONLY, but for the sins of the whole world? Who was John talking about there when he referred to "our sins only"? Believers. So, he was saying Jesus didn't just die as an atonement for those who currently believe in Him, but for everyone else in the world who doesn't currently believe as well.

You probably try to say something similar about John 3:16. Let's look at that verse in context.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Do you try to say that the word "world" as it is used in this passage is not actually everyone in the world and is only talking about believers? If so, what do you make of verse 19? In that verse Jesus says "that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.". So, Jesus was including those who love darkness rather than light as part of the world that "God so loved that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life".

Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe.

No, He paid the penalty for all people in the whole world so that whoever chooses to believe in Him and accept His sacrifice will not perish but have eternal life.

A number of Scripture indicates that Christ died for the world (John 1:29; 3:16; 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb 2:9). Most of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, so they could not have been paid for by Christ.

Wrong. He paid the price, but they denied Him and His payment so they will not receive the benefit of His payment.

The passages that speak of Christ’s dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general (as in Titus 2:3-4).

LOL. Mankind in general refers to believers and unbelievers alike. What person is not part of mankind in general? I can't take this nonsense seriously.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

Give me a break. This is nonsense. I can't take you seriously because you're not willing to address any scripture honestly. Are you that committed to believing what you want to believe instead of just accepting what scripture teaches no matter what that might be?

I accept what the Scripture teaches.

“Now I say, as long as the heir as a child, he doesn’t differ at all from a slave though he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’ Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.”

Christians have been adopted to God' family. Is going God going to cast someone to hell who has been adopted as a child of God? No

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved.” We are blameless before Him (because of what Christ has done on the cross). Blameless people have no blame on them, thus the cannot end in hell.

God only has one Son, and it is the Lord Jesus Christ. We are placed into Christ, and therefore we become heirs of God and joint heirs with Jesus Christ, as we read in Romans 8. This is the great doctrine of adoption.

“The Father loves the Son,” John 3:35. And He loves those who are in the Son because they are one with the Son. This is the marvellous reality of salvation. “Behold, what manner of love the Father has, that He has made us” – 1 John 3:1 – “children of God.”

This is how we are to understand our adoption. We have been placed into His true Son, and therefore are heirs of everything God possesses. This is adoption. God graciously places justified, regenerated, sanctified believers into His own family by placing into union with His beloved Son, so that in Him they become sons of God. Salvation cannot be lost.

John 17:23 I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me. 24 Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. 25 O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me. 26 I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”

The Father loves true Christians the same was He love His Son. This is the assurance of or salvation. When Father looks at us, His sees His Son, He sees us cover in the blood of Christ, blameless. Yea sure someone who God loves the way He loves His Son is going to end up in hell. This is Agape love, unconditional love. God looks at a sinner, sees nothing good but choses to love him.

Ephesian 1:13 “In Him, you also, after listening to the message of the truth, the gospel of your salvation,” – you listened, you heard – “you believed also, you were sealed in Him” We are sealed. Do you understand that?
“you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.”

The Spirit was given to us as a pledge of our inheritance, which is coming later at the redemption of our bodies when we enter into the presence of the Lord.

1 Peter 1: “We have an inheritance” – verse 4 – “which is imperishable, undefiled, will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you.” That’s great; we have that. Jesus said, “I go to prepare a place for you, and I’ll come and take you to where I am, and you’ll be with Me always.” We have a place. We have a full inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, unfading, and reserved for only us in heaven.

Then it says, “who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.” So now we have this future inheritance, and we have a present protection, and that protection is the power of God; that is none other than the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit in us is the protecting power of God that secures us until we receive our inheritance. We are protected by the power of God, and that power is the Holy Spirit.

Peter says also, “You have become partakers of the divine nature.” That is to say, the very nature of God is part of you. You are partaking in the nature of God. Again, that is a reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit who provides for us this divine life and transformation.

So if you are a true son of God, you possess the Holy Spirit. In fact, it’s so personal that verse 6 says, “God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.” That is clear in Scripture. First Corinthians 6, “Know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, which you have of God; you’re not your own, but bought with a price.” Or did Christ purchased us with His precious blood but it was not enough and you can still end in hell, seriously?

Jesus said in John chapter 7 that when you come to faith, and when you come to Him and come to salvation, something dramatic will occur in your life, and it relates to the Holy Spirit. Listen to verses 38 and 39: “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, but this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive.” The Spirit is a flood of living waters in us.

Your birth into the family of God determines your nature. It relates to your nature. You have died to the old man, you have died to the old life; you are in Christ, a new creation. This relates to our nature. Our spiritual birth regeneration, being born again relates to our nature. It is the work of transforming our nature, regenerating us, giving us spiritual life. That is viewed as birth.

On the other hand, adoption does not relate to the receiving of eternal life, but relates to the inheritance that is ours. It relates to what God will grant us out of the love that He has for us. So when we talk about new birth, we’re talking with reference to our nature; we’ve been recreated. When we’re talking about adoption we’re talking about inheritance; that’s what we’re going to receive. The Lord has chosen to give us the inheritance.

Romans 8:11, “His Spirit dwells in you.” Romans 8:14, “All who are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.” 1. John 3:24, “We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” Or Romans 5:5, “The love of God had been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” So we are told the Holy Spirit is given to us. He is in us, in our hearts inside of us.

You know you’re saved when you get to the point of suffering, and your instant response is to cry out, “Abba,” which means that you are saying, “Papa.” That’s the Aramaic diminutive. You’re saying, “Daddy.” This is the evidence that you are a true son of God; you rush to your Father’s arms. You know He loves you, you know He’s your Father, you know He has all the resources. You think that child of God will end up in hell? No

If you cannot see the security of salvation in the above verses, then I don't know what to tell you, and it's pointless to debate.

You explain nothing.

I explained the cross by using Scripture. Maybe one last time, maybe you will see.

Christ fully paid for all of the sins for all the believers. And because it is paid in full, there no longer is any sin that you can end up in hell for.
Christ has satisfied God's wrath for all the believers. He took God's wrath in full for every believer. There then remains no wrath on the believer, and because God's wrath was satisfied, Christian can no longer suffer God's wrath.
By Christ believers have been justified. A justified, a righteous person covered in blood of Christ is not going to end up in hell. Because there no longer is punishment as Christ took the punishment on Him on the cross. If you still believe otherwise, it's pointless to carry on this debate.

God blinds people so they do not believe. And He gives sight to whomever He wants. But I doubt you are ready to have this conversation, when despite you knowing what Christ has done on the cross, you still claim one can lose salvation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Nonsense! Scripture explicitly teaches that He died for the whole world, so why deny it?

1 John 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

He died for the false teachers and prophets referenced in the following verse. Are they saved? Clearly not. So, your statement is 100% false.

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Jesus died in order to give everyone the opportunity to be saved. Everyone is required to choose whether to accept or deny/reject Jesus and what He did for them.

Revelation 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

Revelation 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Amen, if Jesus bought a ticket to a movie theater for everyone in the whole world it doesn’t mean that He is obligated to give one to every person.

 

[BNR32FAN]

'For the sins of the whole world' is a generic term, referring not to every single individual, but to mankind in general. Christ actually paid the penalty only for those who would repent and believe. A number of Scripture indicates that Christ died for the world (John 1:29; 3:16; 6:51; 1 Tim. 2:6; Heb 2:9). Most of the world will be eternally condemned to hell to pay for their own sins, so they could not have been paid for by Christ. The passages that speak of Christ’s dying for the whole world must be understood to refer to mankind in general (as in Titus 2:3-4). “World” indicates the sphere, the beings toward whom God seeks reconciliation and has provided propitiation. God has mitigated his wrath on sinners temporarily, by letting them live and enjoy earthly life. In that sense, Christ has provided a brief, temporal propitiation for the whole world. But he actually satisfied fully the wrath of God eternally only for the elect who believe. Christ’s death in itself had unlimited and infinite value because he is Holy God. Thus his sacrifice was sufficient to pay the penalty for all the sins of all whom God brings to faith. But the actual satisfaction and atonement was made only for those who believe (cf. John 10:11, 15; 17:9, 20; Acts 20:28; Rom 8:32, 37; Eph 5:25). The pardon for sin is offered to the whole world, but received only by those who believe (cf. 1 John 4:9, 14; John 5:24). There is no other way to be reconciled to God.

It’s literally stated so many different ways that it’s undeniable. You have to ignore what is specifically written in so many different ways to refute it. He is the Savior of the world, the whole world, He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, behold the Lamb of God who takes away this sin of the world, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Jesus’ sacrifice for all mankind has been stated so many different ways that it’s undeniable. It doesn’t mean everyone will be saved, it just means that He already paid the price so that everyone can be saved.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

It’s literally stated so many different ways that it’s undeniable. You have to ignore what is specifically written in so many different ways to refute it. He is the Savior of the world, the whole world, He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, behold the Lamb of God who takes away this sin of the world, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Jesus’ sacrifice for all mankind has been stated so many different ways that it’s undeniable. It doesn’t mean everyone will be saved, it just means that He already paid the price so that everyone can be saved.

Yeah sure, hell is going to be full of people who Christ died for, redeemed, paid the dept in full. Hell is going to be full of people who Christ satisfied God's just, full of people Christ justified, full of people Christ has been judged for, full of people Christ has suffered God's wrath in full, full of people that have been adopted into God's family so they are now called children of God, full of people who have inheritance in Christ, full of people that have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, full of people God loves the same way He loves His Son, full of people that God no longer sees as sinners because He sees His Son's sacrifice and blood. And all of this was not enough. Yeah right

 

[Mercy Shown]

Paul says in (Heb. 10:35-39) (v.35) Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. (v.36) For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. People you must have patience when dealing with the word of God. And you must do the will of God, which is the keeping of his law, if you expect to receive the promise, which is eternal life in the kingdom of God, which will be established on this earth. NO ONE IS GOING TO HEAVEN. And it’s strange that most people who consider themselves “once saved always saved” are the same ones that tell you that God’s commandments were nailed to the cross. (v.37) FOR YET A LITTLE WHILE, AND HE THAT SHALL COME WILL COME, AND WILL NOT TARRY.

(v.38) NOW THE JUST SHALL LIVE BY FAITH: BUT IF ANY MAN DRAW BACK, MY SOUL SHALL HAVE NO PLEASURE IN HIM. What does Paul mean by if any man draw back? You mean that once you are quote “saved” that you can draw back. According to the apostle Paul you can.
Just as you choose by your own free will to start serving the lord, you can by that same free will stop serving the lord or as Paul put it draw back. (v.39) But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul. That’s what you must do, you must have faith (believe) unto the saving of the soul. And your soul is not saved as soon as you start to believe on Jesus, salvation is works in progress, not a one step solution.

Just to clarify, are you saying one must obey in order to earn salvation? Or are you saying that one will obey because they have been saved?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I accept what the Scripture teaches.

You absolutely do not. You do not accept what 2 Peter 2:1 teaches, for example. Watching you try to find a way to make it fit your doctrine is embarrassing to witness. It says that Jesus paid the price (bought) the false teachers and false prophets mentioned in that verse but they denied Him and rejected what He did for them. That puts the blame entirely on them and is the reason it says they bring destruction upon themselves. In your view God brings destruction upon them by creating them from birth to be His vessels of wrath fitted to destruction. I

In your view it can't be said that they bring destruction upon themselves, but that is what 2 Peter 2:1 says because Jesus paid the price for them (bought them) and they denied Him. Why else does anyone deserve to be punished except for making the choice to rebel against God's desires for them? How does it make any sense for God to punish people for no discernible reason as you believe?

You don't accept what 1 John 2:1-2 and John 3:16-19 teach which is that Jesus died for the sins of literally the whole world (all people) so that anyone who believes in Him will not perish but have eternal life. In John 3:19 it says this:

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

This verse shows that "the world" Jesus was referencing in John 3:16 includes those who love darkness rather than light because He said light came into the world and those people chose to love darkness instead of embracing the light. So, when Jesus said "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life", He was referring to everyone in the world. Because God loves the world and wants everyone to repent (Acts 17:30-31, 2 Peter 3:9) and to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-6), He had His Son die for everyone in the world to give them all the opportunity to be saved. The false teachers and prophets mentioned in 2 Peter 2:1 denied and rejected that opportunity.

“Now I say, as long as the heir as a child, he doesn’t differ at all from a slave though he is owner of everything, but he is under guardians and managers until the date set by the father. So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’ Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God.”

Christians have been adopted to God' family. Is going God going to cast someone to hell who has been adopted as a child of God? No

He will if they develop "an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God". He will if they ignore warnings to "exhort one another daily...lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin". He will if they do not "hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end".

Hebrews 3:12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Have you never read this...

John 15:1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Jesus indicated that anyone who does not remain in Him will be cut off and thrown into the fire. Why do you ignore this? Who is in Him? Those who are saved. He is saying we have the responsibility to remain in Him. Why do you ignore this? You do not accept scripture like this.

What Jesus said here is similar to how Paul talks about the olive tree in relation to the kingdom of God in Romans 11 and in Romans 11:22 he said that anyone who does not continue to believe will be cut off.

Peter says also, “You have become partakers of the divine nature.” That is to say, the very nature of God is part of you. You are partaking in the nature of God. Again, that is a reference to the indwelling Holy Spirit who provides for us this divine life and transformation.

And the following scripture says that those who have become partakers of the diving nature can fall away.

Hebrews 6:4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So if you are a true son of God, you possess the Holy Spirit. In fact, it’s so personal that verse 6 says, “God sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts.” That is clear in Scripture. First Corinthians 6, “Know you not that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit, which you have of God; you’re not your own, but bought with a price.” Or did Christ purchased us with His precious blood but it was not enough and you can still end in hell, seriously?

Jesus said in John chapter 7 that when you come to faith, and when you come to Him and come to salvation, something dramatic will occur in your life, and it relates to the Holy Spirit. Listen to verses 38 and 39: “He who believes in Me, as the Scripture said, ‘From his innermost being will flow rivers of living water.’ But this He spoke of the Spirit, but this He spoke of the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were to receive.” The Spirit is a flood of living waters in us.

Your birth into the family of God determines your nature. It relates to your nature. You have died to the old man, you have died to the old life; you are in Christ, a new creation. This relates to our nature. Our spiritual birth regeneration, being born again relates to our nature. It is the work of transforming our nature, regenerating us, giving us spiritual life. That is viewed as birth.

On the other hand, adoption does not relate to the receiving of eternal life, but relates to the inheritance that is ours. It relates to what God will grant us out of the love that He has for us. So when we talk about new birth, we’re talking with reference to our nature; we’ve been recreated. When we’re talking about adoption we’re talking about inheritance; that’s what we’re going to receive. The Lord has chosen to give us the inheritance.

Romans 8:11, “His Spirit dwells in you.” Romans 8:14, “All who are led by the Spirit of God, these are the sons of God.” 1. John 3:24, “We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.” Or Romans 5:5, “The love of God had been poured out in our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” So we are told the Holy Spirit is given to us. He is in us, in our hearts inside of us.

You know you’re saved when you get to the point of suffering, and your instant response is to cry out, “Abba,” which means that you are saying, “Papa.” That’s the Aramaic diminutive. You’re saying, “Daddy.” This is the evidence that you are a true son of God; you rush to your Father’s arms. You know He loves you, you know He’s your Father, you know He has all the resources. You think that child of God will end up in hell? No

If you cannot see the security of salvation in the above verses, then I don't know what to tell you, and it's pointless to debate.

Nowhere do any of those verses say that we have no responsibility to keep our faith in Him. We know He will not leave or forsake us, but how does that mean we can't leave or forsake Him? You're only looking at part of the story. Why are you cherry picking scripture like this? You ignore or try to explain away so much scripture. Why?

I explained the cross by using Scripture. Maybe one last time, maybe you will see.

Christ fully paid for all of the sins for all the believers. And because it is paid in full, there no longer is any sin that you can end up in hell for.
Christ has satisfied God's wrath for all the believers. He took God's wrath in full for every believer. There then remains no wrath on the believer, and because God's wrath was satisfied, Christian can no longer suffer God's wrath.
By Christ believers have been justified. A justified, a righteous person covered in blood of Christ is not going to end up in hell. Because there no longer is punishment as Christ took the punishment on Him on the cross. If you still believe otherwise, it's pointless to carry on this debate.

God blinds people so they do not believe. And He gives sight to whomever He wants. But I doubt you are ready to have this conversation, when despite you knowing what Christ has done on the cross, you still claim one can lose salvation.

Your elitist attitude ("I doubt you are ready to have this conversation") is typical of those who believe your false doctrine. You are brainwashed. All you do when I bring up scripture that contradicts your view is go out of your way to try to explain it away. Everyone can see that.

What do you mean when you say "God blinds people so they do not believe"? Do you think He does that randomly for no discernible reason? Take the Isarelites that he blinded in Paul's day, as described in Romans 11. How did God determine who should be blinded and who shouldn't at that time? No discernible reason? Or was it based on who believed at the time and who didn't?

Do you think that blinding was permanent for the rest of their lives? If so, you would be wrong because Paul indicated that he hoped to lead some of them to salvation.

Romans 11:11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy. 12 Now if the fall of them be the riches of the world, and the diminishing of them the riches of the Gentiles; how much more their fulness? 13 For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office: 14 If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.....23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graft them in again.

 

[Spiritual Jew]

Yeah sure, hell is going to be full of people who Christ died for, redeemed, paid the dept in full.

That's correct. The reason they are in hell is not because God wanted them to be there, but rather as punishment for rejecting His offer of salvation by rejecting Jesus and what He did for them.

Have you figured out which false interpretation of 2 Peter 2:1 you want to stick with yet?

2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

Peter taught that Jesus paid the price for these false prophets and teachers who denied Him, so they "bring upon themselves swift destruction" as a result. In your view, God alone determines who is saved and who is not with man having no say in the matter, so in your view God brings destruction on those people for some unknown reason rather than them bringing it upon themselves because of rejecting the Lord who bought them.

What do you think "the world" represents in this passage? Which people does it indicate are in the world?

John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

Hell is going to be full of people who Christ satisfied God's just, full of people Christ justified, full of people Christ has been judged for, full of people Christ has suffered God's wrath in full, full of people that have been adopted into God's family so they are now called children of God, full of people who have inheritance in Christ, full of people that have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, full of people God loves the same way He loves His Son, full of people that God no longer sees as sinners because He sees His Son's sacrifice and blood. And all of this was not enough. Yeah right

You ignore so much scripture which talks about man's responsibility in salvation. Why?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

It’s literally stated so many different ways that it’s undeniable. You have to ignore what is specifically written in so many different ways to refute it. He is the Savior of the world, the whole world, He is the propitiation for the sins of the whole world, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, behold the Lamb of God who takes away this sin of the world, He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Jesus’ sacrifice for all mankind has been stated so many different ways that it’s undeniable. It doesn’t mean everyone will be saved, it just means that He already paid the price so that everyone can be saved.

Right. It couldn't possibly be more clear, but they miss it, anyway, because they ignore context and try to make the scriptures say what they want them to say.

 

[Bro.T]

Just to clarify, are you saying one must obey in order to earn salvation? Or are you saying that one will obey because they have been saved?

I'm saying just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life, you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. Because a
man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I accept what the Scripture teaches.

Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent. 31 For he has set a day when he will judge the world with justice by the man he has appointed. He has given proof of this to everyone by raising him from the dead.”

Do you accept what this scripture teaches? Do you accept that God commands all people everywhere to repent? Do you accept that He will one day judge the entire "world with justice by the man he has appointed", which is obviously Jesus? Do you accept that He gave proof of that to literally everyone by raising Jesus from the dead?

Why will unbelievers be judged by their response to Jesus if they never had any opportunity to repent and believe in Him? Why are they condemned for not believing in Him (John 3:18) if the only way they can believe in Him is by God giving them faith? If God does not give them the repentance and faith they need to be saved, then why are they condemned for not believing?

 

[Spiritual Jew]

I'm saying just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life, you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. Because a
man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

But, you understand that we obey Him because we love Him and trust in Him and rely on Him completely for our salvation, which means our obedience reflects our faith, and not because we are trying to earn salvation, right? Our motives matter.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Just to clarify, are you saying one must obey in order to earn salvation? Or are you saying that one will obey because they have been saved?

Obedience doesn’t earn salvation and it’s not automatic either. Everyone who has been saved is disobedient. Everyone who promotes eternal security is so quick to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 but the passage specifically says “for by grace you have been saved through faith”. In order to receive salvation we must remain steadfast in our faith, if we lose our faith we will lose our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t say that we are saved by grace apart from faith or regardless of our faith. Colossians 1:22-23 also supports this.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yeah sure, hell is going to be full of people who Christ died for, redeemed, paid the dept in full. Hell is going to be full of people who Christ satisfied God's just, full of people Christ justified, full of people Christ has been judged for, full of people Christ has suffered God's wrath in full, full of people that have been adopted into God's family so they are now called children of God, full of people who have inheritance in Christ, full of people that have been sealed by the Holy Spirit, full of people God loves the same way He loves His Son, full of people that God no longer sees as sinners because He sees His Son's sacrifice and blood. And all of this was not enough. Yeah right

None of those verses say anything about justification. Justification has nothing to do with sin. Justification comes thru faith, not thru Christ’s sacrifice. There were numerous people who were justified with God long before Christ’s ministry or His sacrifice. Christ’s sacrifice is necessary to remove our sin so that we can enter into heaven, it doesn’t automatically result in justification with The Father. It’s Christ’s acknowledgement on Judgement Day that determines whether or not we will enter heaven.

 

[Ivan Hlavanda]

None of those verses say anything about justification. Justification has nothing to do with sin. Justification comes thru faith, not thru Christ’s sacrifice.

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy. The actual change toward holiness in the sinner occurs with sanctification, which is related to justification.

A key passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21–26: “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.” Several important facts about justification are to be noted:

• Justification comes apart from the law; that is, we cannot earn justification through rule-keeping or our own good works.
• Justification is made possible in the sacrificial death of Christ; it is based on the shed blood of Christ

• Justification is the free and gracious gift of God bestowed on those who receive by faith the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

• Justification demonstrates the righteousness of God.

Related to God’s justification of the sinner are several things:

1) The remission of the penalty of sin, which was death (Romans 3:23; 8:1; 1 Peter 2:24).

2) The restoration to God’s favor, which had been lost due to our sin (John 3:36). So, justification is more than an acquittal; it is full acceptance. We are now friends of God (James 2:23) and co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

3) The imputation of righteousness, which is the reckoning of Christ’s righteousness to our account (Romans 4:5–8). We are declared to be righteous forensically (legally) because “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Jesus Christ finished the work required for our justification on the cross. “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9). He was then “raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25).

The question arises, “Is justification just? If He is holy, how can God forgive a guilty sinner?” The answer is that justification does not excuse our sin, ignore our sin, or endorse our sin. Rather, our sin is fully punished, Christ having taken our penalty for us. He was our substitute (1 Peter 3:18). Because the wrath of God is satisfied in Christ (Isaiah 53:4–6), we are free from condemnation (Romans 8:1), and God remains both “fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus” (Romans 3:26, NLT).

Because God justifies us by grace through faith in Christ, we now have peace with God (Romans 5:1). Like Joshua the priest, we have been stripped of our “filthy clothes” (Zechariah 3:4), and, like the prodigal son in the parable, we are now clothed with “the best robe” (Luke 15:22). God the Father sees us as perfect and unblemished, and we are to be devoted “to doing what is good” (Titus 3:14).

Romans 5:18–19 “So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him.”

No, hell is not going to be full of people who have been justified by God.

God cannot judge His people in any way because His people have already been judged in Jesus. When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath He drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ.

Hell is not going to be full of people that Christ has fully paid for with His precious blood. Wrath of God was satisfied for every believer by Christ on the cross, thus the wrath of God no longer remains on believers, thus they cannot ever suffer the wrath of God.

Hell is not going to be full of people that have been adopted into God's family, that have inheritance in Christ, that are children of God and God loves them the same way He loves His Son. You can all stand on your head, but this will never happen.

 

[fhansen]

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy. The actual change toward holiness in the sinner occurs with sanctification, which is related to justification.

A key passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21–26:

Rom 3:21 is all about “change within the sinner”, with a righteousness given that can actually accomplish what the law could not.
“…not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith.” Phil 3:9

“For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!” Rom 5:17

Because unrighteous still earns us death!
“When you were slaves to sin, you were free from the control of righteousness. What benefit did you reap at that time from the things you are now ashamed of? Those things result in death! But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the benefit you reap leads to holiness, and the result is eternal life.” Rom 6:20-22

And so,
“…He condemned sin in the flesh, in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.” Rom 8:4

Therefore,
“…brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God.” Rom 8:12-14

God justifies the ungodly; apart from the law, we're saved by faith unto righteousness, never separated from it.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Properly understood, justification has to do with God’s declaration about the sinner, not any change within the sinner. That is, justification, per se, does not make anyone holy; it simply declares him to be not guilty before God and therefore treated as holy. The actual change toward holiness in the sinner occurs with sanctification, which is related to justification.

A key passage describing justification in relation to believers is Romans 3:21–26: “But now apart from the law the righteousness of God has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference between Jew and Gentile, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, . . . so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus.” Several important facts about justification are to be noted:

• Justification comes apart from the law; that is, we cannot earn justification through rule-keeping or our own good works.
• Justification is made possible in the sacrificial death of Christ; it is based on the shed blood of Christ

• Justification is the free and gracious gift of God bestowed on those who receive by faith the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.

• Justification demonstrates the righteousness of God.

Related to God’s justification of the sinner are several things:

1) The remission of the penalty of sin, which was death (Romans 3:23; 8:1; 1 Peter 2:24).

2) The restoration to God’s favor, which had been lost due to our sin (John 3:36). So, justification is more than an acquittal; it is full acceptance. We are now friends of God (James 2:23) and co-heirs with Christ (Romans 8:17).

3) The imputation of righteousness, which is the reckoning of Christ’s righteousness to our account (Romans 4:5–8). We are declared to be righteous forensically (legally) because “God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God” (2 Corinthians 5:21).

We are justified, declared righteous, at the moment of our salvation. Jesus Christ finished the work required for our justification on the cross. “Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him!” (Romans 5:9). He was then “raised to life for our justification” (Romans 4:25).

The question arises, “Is justification just? If He is holy, how can God forgive a guilty sinner?” The answer is that justification does not excuse our sin, ignore our sin, or endorse our sin. Rather, our sin is fully punished, Christ having taken our penalty for us. He was our substitute (1 Peter 3:18). Because the wrath of God is satisfied in Christ (Isaiah 53:4–6), we are free from condemnation (Romans 8:1), and God remains both “fair and just, and he makes sinners right in his sight when they believe in Jesus” (Romans 3:26, NLT).

Because God justifies us by grace through faith in Christ, we now have peace with God (Romans 5:1). Like Joshua the priest, we have been stripped of our “filthy clothes” (Zechariah 3:4), and, like the prodigal son in the parable, we are now clothed with “the best robe” (Luke 15:22). God the Father sees us as perfect and unblemished, and we are to be devoted “to doing what is good” (Titus 3:14).

Romans 5:18–19 “So then as through one trespass [Adam’s sin] there resulted condemnation for all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. For just as through one man’s disobedience [his failure to hear, his carelessness] the many were made sinners, so through the obedience of the one Man the many will be made righteous and acceptable to God and brought into right standing with Him.”

No, hell is not going to be full of people who have been justified by God.

God cannot judge His people in any way because His people have already been judged in Jesus. When Christ drank the cup of God’s wrath He drank it to the dregs. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus and that means on the final day and every day until then. God is never judging you for your sin if you are in Christ.

Hell is not going to be full of people that Christ has fully paid for with His precious blood. Wrath of God was satisfied for every believer by Christ on the cross, thus the wrath of God no longer remains on believers, thus they cannot ever suffer the wrath of God.

Hell is not going to be full of people that have been adopted into God's family, that have inheritance in Christ, that are children of God and God loves them the same way He loves His Son. You can all stand on your head, but this will never happen.

Nothing you wrote here addresses the fact that people were justified with God before Christ’s sacrifice. How was Abraham justified before Christ’s sacrifice if Christ’s sacrifice is what justifies us? I think you’re confusing justification with atonement. Nothing impure can enter heaven which is why we need Christ’s atonement, but people were justified (declared righteous by God) before Christ’s atonement. That’s why the righteous went to Abraham’s Bosom before Christ’s atonement because even tho they were justified by God their sins were still not atoned for.

 

[Mercy Shown]

Obedience doesn’t earn salvation and it’s not automatic either. Everyone who has been saved is disobedient. Everyone who promotes eternal security is so quick to quote Ephesians 2:8-9 but the passage specifically says “for by grace you have been saved through faith”. In order to receive salvation we must remain steadfast in our faith, if we lose our faith we will lose our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 doesn’t say that we are saved by grace apart from faith or regardless of our faith. Colossians 1:22-23 also supports this.

This is a very interesting point. There appears to be an element of choice in believeing but there also is an element of gifting from God. I used to thing it was purely a gift from God but I have found out that there are times when we must exercise our will to choose to believe or not to. What do you think?

 

[Mercy Shown]

I'm saying just as you freely accepted Jesus in your life, you can also freely choose to stop serving him. Jesus said with his own mouth; (Matt. 24:13) But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. That is until the end of your life, or until the Second Coming of the Lord. Because a
man asked Jesus this very question, "...What good thing shall I do that I may have eternal life?", and Jesus replied, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. (Matthew 19:16-19).

This was a direct answer to a direct question, which all of us will do well to take heed to. Anybody can claim to have faith, but actions speak louder than words. Faith and works go together and you can't have one without the other. "Here is the patience of the saints; here are they that keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus" (Revelation 14:12). The bible says, we must not only be a hearer of the word, but a doer of the word also (James 1:21-22).

It seems that your view is that we earn our salvation at least in part by obeying. Is that correct?

 

[BNR32FAN]

This is a very interesting point. There appears to be an element of choice in believeing but there also is an element of gifting from God. I used to thing it was purely a gift from God but I have found out that there are times when we must exercise our will to choose to believe or not to. What do you think?

I think it’s all about our willingness to cooperate with God.