Once Saved Always Saved: Fact or Fiction?

HatGuy said:

Because it explains itself. We are already children of God. We're not waiting a lifetime to become children of God.

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Human children are sometimes disinherited by their biological parents for various reasons.

God does indeed disinherit His adopted children for their disobedience.

If we Christians deny our faith in Jesus and we do deny our faith in Him when we disobey His commandments, Jesus will then deny that He knows us. It is Jesus alone who approves people for eternal life. Our own evil actions will condemn us to hell.

1 John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. NKJV

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. NKJV

When we sin, it is the same as denying that we believe in Jesus. A person who continues to sin does not know God even if he thinks he does. And God will claim that He does not know him.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. NKJV

Christians who sin and do not repent before death are not approved to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 7:20-23
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them [my true followers]. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ NIV

These believers prophesied, cast out demons in Jesus' name, and performed many miracles, but they still will not be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life. Instead, they will condemn themselves to hell by their own sinful deed/works/fruits.

MikeEnders said:

gigman I might have missed it in this long ole thread but who has been saying Christians never sin?

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Most who say that OSAS is false.

MikeEnders said:

Unfortunate for your position is the fact that you don't have the authority to change what God's word says to suit your misguided claims. There is no will not or do not the passage emphatically states in the greek "ou dynatai" Not possible. He CANNOT continue sinning.

This is the thing with anti OSAS people. They always claim OSAS adherents are twisting warning passages and then turn right around and add and change words in passages that are straightforward and clear in saying they are wrong.

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Perhaps you are simply misinterpreting what the original writer said.

Do you realize that you are claiming that you do not personally sin?


1John 5:18
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. nkjv

John states that we Christians do sin! And, when we do sin, we must ask for forgiveness and then repent of these sins.


1 John 3:6
Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. nkjv

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. nkjv

Sin separates the Christian from God's friendship.


Jude warns us Christians to keep ourselves from sinning so that we will keep ourselves in the love of God. We must continue to obey God in order to continue to be faithful [saved].

Jude 1:20-23
But you, beloved, building yourselves up on your most holy faith, praying in the Holy Spirit, 21 keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.22 And on some have compassion, making a distinction; 23 but others save with fear, pulling them out of the fire, hating even the garment defiled by the flesh.

How do we keep ourselves in the love of God?

We are promised eternal life if we overcome our temptations to sin until we die:

2 Peter 1:2-8
2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. nkjv


Please note that a true Christian chooses to not participate in worldly lusts and because he chooses to not do these types of sins, he will receive the promised crown of eternal life after he dies.

LoveofTruth said:

Such sins will cause a person to go to the lake of fire as scripture warns. No it is not by works that we get saved or lose it. But by an evil heart of unbelief. If a believer abides in Christ they will overcome the world 1 John 5, but f they are not overcomers by abiding in faith and walking in Christ light, then they will be overcome and be blotted out of the book of life as scripture clearly teaches.

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I appreciate the time and thought you put into answering my post. I commend you for your effort and study. But we do not see the scriptures the same so then...come...let us reason together.

You believe you can lose your salvation therefore you are trusting in YOU to keep doing right or from doing wrong, bad, evil, etc. So you would say you are trusting in Christ but you are also trustung in YOU as mentioned above but in reality since Christ will never fail it is YOU who could possibly blow so then...in conclusion YOU...are trusting....in...YOU! In this age of grace this will send you too hell. And on top of that since you preach a faith plus works salvation you are accursed according to Paul: Gal. 1:8, But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

You, my friend, are on shakey ground or should I say...sinking sand!

I, on the other hand, am resting solely on the finished work at Calvary, redeemed, forgiven forever, justified, sanctified, sealed unto the day of redemption, in the body of Christ, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, seated in the heavenly places in Christ, and glorified. All a work of GOd not an ounce of me.

These truths are found in Rom. 1-8, Ephesians, nd Col. 1, 2. Maybe you should spend some time in these books with much prayer. And if you choose to stay in the doctrine you believe then I will see you at the great white throne.

God bless.

Jan001 said:

Perhaps you are simply misinterpreting what the original writer said.

Do you realize that you are claiming that you do not personally sin?

.

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Do you realize that you can't READ????

Said nothing about not cotinue sinning. I and the passage says you cant keep living in a constant lifestyle of sin like before you were saved. I don't know if anyone else is reading your posts but I won't be any longer. You are not engaging with anyone just endless pontification without reading what is being discussed.

The passage says Christians cannot continue sin and you are claiming its my interpretaton - NO . Stop being lazy and go look up the Greek word yourself. Its the same Greek word for impossible/cannot. You are guilty of trying to change what it says not me

MikeEnders said:

Do you realize that you can't READ????

Said nothing about not cotinue sinning. I and the passage says you cant keep living in a constant lifestyle of sin like before you were saved. I don't know if anyone else is reading your posts but I won't be any longer. You are not engaging with anyone just endless pontification without reading what is being discussed.

The passage says Christians cannot continue sin and you are claiming its my interpretaton - NO . Stop being lazy and go look up the Greek word yourself. Its the same Greek word for impossible/cannot. You are guilty of trying to change what it says not me

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Right. And no one who gets saved does. That's part of getting saved.

Jan001 said:

Human children are sometimes disinherited by their biological parents for various reasons.

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This needs to be addressed. Disinheriting by parents doesn't change the RELATIONSHIP. The child REMAINS the birth child. The DNA does NOT change. What changes is the FELLOWSHIP between parent and child.

That's what the insecurity crowd seems not to get. Once a child of God, that cannot change, any more than the physical relationship between human parent and child.

While relationship cannot be broken, fellowship can and does get broken. That is the whole issue of 1 John 1; fellowship.

In fact, that's what "abiding in Christ" is about; fellowship. As well, being "in Christ" is about relationship. They are different and those with discernment understand the difference.

God does indeed disinherit His adopted children for their disobedience.

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There are NO verses that say such a thing.

If we Christians deny our faith in Jesus and we do deny our faith in Him when we disobey His commandments, Jesus will then deny that He knows us. It is Jesus alone who approves people for eternal life. Our own evil actions will condemn us to hell.

1 John 2:3-5
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him. NKJV

Titus 1:16
They profess to know God, but in works they deny Him, being abominable, disobedient, and disqualified for every good work. NKJV

When we sin, it is the same as denying that we believe in Jesus. A person who continues to sin does not know God even if he thinks he does. And God will claim that He does not know him.

Matthew 10:33
But whoever denies Me before men, him I will also deny before My Father who is in heaven. NKJV

Christians who sin and do not repent before death are not approved to inherit eternal life.

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None of these verses SAY what is being claimed.

Matthew 7:20-23
Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them [my true followers]. 21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’ NIV

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This is really poor "scholarship". Matt 7:20 is in the context that begins in v.15, which is about false teachers. V.21 is a change of subject.

These believers prophesied, cast out demons in Jesus' name, and performed many miracles, but they still will not be approved to inherit the crown of eternal life.

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Where would one get the idea that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were believers, as is being claimed? There is NO mention of their faith or that they ever believed.

In fact, what was the basis on which they thought they would enter the kingdom? Works. Not faith.

MikeEnders said:

How would a Christian lose their salvation if they can't sin? I suspect you can't think very well.

Plus if you even read the thread you would know some people teach a Christian can continue sinning on and on and never repent of anything and still claim salvation. that been discussed for like 15 pages. Maybe you need new reading glasses. Ive explained the passages (not hard they are pretty straightforward) several times.

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So, the passages don't prove OSAS, you've simply inferred OSAS from your understanding of those passages.

AVBunyan said:

You believe you can lose your salvation therefore you are trusting in YOU to keep doing right or from doing wrong, bad, evil, etc. So you would say you are trusting in Christ but you are also trustung in YOU as mentioned above but in reality since Christ will never fail it is YOU who could possibly blow so then...in conclusion YOU...are trusting....in...YOU!

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No i trust in God's work in me not myself. The bible is clear that the old man, the old me is crucified with Christ neverthe less i live but not i ...I can do nothing without Christ he is the head of the new man and the body of Christ. He works wffectually in me as i yeild to his work. If i yeild to the flesh i shall die but if i though the spirit do yeild to the Spirit i shall live.

Sadly some do not see faith they preach a kind of fatalism, as if God forces them to be saved and stay saved. They act as if faith would be a work we do to save ourself. No faith is not a work, as Paul said. We have faith in God through Jesus Christ , not in ourself/

AVBunyan said:

In this age of grace this will send you too hell. And on top of that since you preach a faith plus works salvation you are accursed according to Paul: Gal. 1:8, But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.

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I do not preach faith plus our works for salvation. I preach grace through faith in the gospel 1 Cor 5:1-5. And Gods works for us and in us. If God is not working in us we are not saved. faith is an access into the grace wherein we are saved. you seem to not understand the twofold aspect of faith and grace. faith does not save the grace does. Faith is hopw we have access into the grace. The grace teaches us to deny ungodliness and worldly lust and to live soberly , righteously and godly. If we claim to be in the grace and turn that grace in to lasciviousness we will go to hell. If we claim to be in that grace and live ungodly, unrighteously and unrighteously, then we are not in that grace and on our way to hell. Show me your faith without God's works in you and I will show you my faith by Gods work in me, as the body without the spirit is dead, so a believer without God;s spirit working in him is dead spiritually.

AVBunyan said:

You, my friend, are on shakey ground or should I say...sinking sand!

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No i am not I suggest you read Matthew 10 again showing that Judas was once a sheep and sent to the lost sheep and then he lost it and fell by transgression and had his name blotted out of the book of life

You are on shaky ground if you walk in sin and say you are still saved. read 1 Cor 6:9,10 and Galatians 5 about the same fleshy sins that Paul warns believers about .

It is not works that saved us and it is not works that we loose it by. If we have an evil heart of unbelief through the decitfulness of sin and depart from the living God Christ will profit us nothing, Read Hebrews 3 it shatters your view and puts you on shaky ground.

AVBunyan said:

I, on the other hand, am resting solely on the finished work at Calvary, redeemed, forgiven forever, justified, sanctified, sealed unto the day of redemption, in the body of Christ, bone of his bone and flesh of his flesh, circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, seated in the heavenly places in Christ, and glorified. All a work of GOd not an ounce of me.

Yes the excellency of the power is of God and not of us. But the old man we agree can do nothing he is to be dead. yet the new man can do all things in Christ

I suppose these verses you wish werent in the bible then is that right?

1 Timothy 6:12
Fight the good fight of faith, lay hold on eternal life"

Galatians 6:8
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."

"
1 Corinthians 3:9
For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building."

"
1 John 3:3
And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure."

"
1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.'

Galatians 5:4
"4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.'

Galatians 5:19-21


19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Galatians 4:20
I desire to be present with you now, and to change my voice; for I stand in doubt of you." and they had received the spirit by the hearing of faith.

etc etc etc etc etc i could go on for hundereds of verses but..

AVBunyan said:

These truths are found in Rom. 1-8, Ephesians, nd Col. 1, 2. Maybe you should spend some time in these books with much prayer. And if you choose to stay in the doctrine you believe then I will see you at the great white throne.

God bless.

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I have spend time in them and prayer and the doctrine you hold may cause many who are in sin to be lost. It gives them a false security in their sin read Jeremiah 23 about the false prophets who strengthen the hands of evil doers and say peace to them who are in sin.

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FreeGrace2 said:

From your statement, do you sin? Please don't forget what 1 John 1:8 says.

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Yeah I sin, I'm a sinner. I don't believe in OSAS but I rely on Christ who redeems me through repentance. I walk with and rely on Christ. Can you say the same?

Do you think you're perfect because you're once saved always save never having to recognize your sins but fully rely on your own justification?

I can also say I'm not saved till He declares my salvation. Can you say the same?

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"All of this is refuted by the simple fact that eternal life is a gift from God, received by faith in Christ and is irrevocable."

I already did. See above.

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Eisegesis refutes nothing. It only shows your true nature. There's nothing in all of Romans 11 that said eternal life is irrevocable.

You've been asked numerous times to prove your argument but has never proven to anyone the gifts in Romans 11:29 implies eternal life. You're just rejecting what Paul said the gifts (blessings originally promised to the Jews) are

FreeGrace2 said:

Rom 11:29 is about both God's calling and God's gifts. Ch 11 is about God's calling to Israel. The gifts of God were previously DEFINED by Paul in several places: spiritual gifts in 1:11, justification in 3:24 and 5:51-17, and eternal life in 6:23.

To deny that Rom 11:29 excludes either justification or eternal life is preposterous. There are no gifts mentioned in ch 11, which is about God's calling to Israel.

No one has been able to show that Paul wasn't thinking of eternal life when he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

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Romans 11:1-2
1 I ask, then: Did God reject his own people? Certainly not! I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God has not rejected his people, whom he chose from the beginning. You know what the scripture says in the passage where Elijah pleads with God against Israel:

Romans 11:26-29
26 And this is how all Israel will be saved. As the scripture says,

28 Because they reject the Good News, the Jews are God's enemies for the sake of you Gentiles. But because of God's choice, they are his friends because of their ancestors. 29 For God does not change his mind about whom he chooses and blesses.

FREEGRACE2,

QUESTION: If Romans 11:29 is about eternal life, why would God grant eternal life to the Israelites who are under the law and can't save themselves by their works?

What's preposterous is you thinking the Israelites can have eternal life under the law.

And your answer is, Once Stumped Always Stumped.

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"There are NO verses that teach that loss of belief equals loss of salvation. That is a fallacy. Unsupported by Scripture."

Funny, none of these verses says that salvation can be lost. I understand that the insecurity crowd thinks that's what these verses mean, but they sure don't say that.

otoh, Paul defined justification (Rom 3;24 and 5:15-17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God before he noted that God's gifts are irrevocable in Rom 11:29, which proves that none of the above verses CAN mean that salvation can be lost.

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Here let's do this again. Is your faith not your belief? It said in Hebrews if you abandon your faith, you cannot come to repentance.

Is it easier to read Hebrews in big bold red letter?

Hebrews 6:4-6
4 For how can those who abandon their faith be brought back to repent again? They were once in God's light; they tasted heaven's gift and received their share of the Holy Spirit;5 they knew from experience that God's word is good, and they had felt the powers of the coming age. 6 And then they abandoned their faith! It is impossible to bring them back to repent again, because they are again crucifying the Son of God and exposing him to public shame.

Rev 2:16 Repent, or else I will come to you quickly and will fight against them with the sword of My mouth.

Rev 2:22 Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds.

Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

STOP THE PRESSES!!!

gigman7 said:

There are people who thought they were saved and weren't. But, that doesn't mean they lost their salvation.

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What happened to OSAS?

Is a person not saved after they've declared and "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved." Acts 16:31, as some OSASers advocates?

Read below. FreeGrace2 said you're saved and have eternal life the moment you confess and believe in Christ?

Is your defination of saved differ from FreeGrace2?

FreeGrace2 said:

Here's the proposition from God: "believe in the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved". Or, "those who behold and believe in the Son may have eternal life". When hearing these propositions, one either believes the proposition, or they do not believe the proposition.

Those who believe the proposition are saved and given eternal life.

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FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong."

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gigman7 said:

You are wrong. I do get it. I have eveon said it many times. But, yes, we do sin after we are saved. None of us go without sinning. But as Christians, we don't sin because we just want to go out and sin all the time. That's the difference. Just because we sin doesn't make us no longer a Christian.

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How does this justify your argument for OSAS?

Your arguments can also be applied to many non-Christians that don't sin because they just want to go out and sin all the time.

Example: Just because an atheist does not sin doesn't make him a Christian either.

gigman7 said:

I think part of the problem here is that some have a confusion of what being a Christian means. It doesn't necessarily mean being saved.

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gigman7 said:

Just because you believe and confess that Jesus is the Son of God doesn't make you saved.

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gigman7 said:

Yes, there will be believers who never get saved and do not make it to Heaven. That does not mean they lost their salvation. They never had it.

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I'm speechless. Do all OSAS advocates have a different view on being saved?

So if a believer is not saved, is he chop liver? Or shish-kabob if going to hell?

FreeGrace2 said:

I said this:
"Now, that's an amazing statement, given the answer of Paul to the jailer who asked him what he MUST DO to be SAVED. Acts 16:30

"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you WILL BE SAVED." Acts 16:31

Either Paul lied, or your view is dead wrong."

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You forgot the 3rd conclusion.

You don't understand Paul.

FreeGrace2 said:

There are NO verses that say such a thing.

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So God created and expanded hell for nothing? Let me guess, you must think God made the book of life and lake of fire for something leisure like a Summer camp-outs?

FreeGrace2 said:

Where would one get the idea that the crowd in Matt 7:21-23 were believers, as is being claimed? There is NO mention of their faith or that they ever believed.

In fact, what was the basis on which they thought they would enter the kingdom? Works. Not faith.

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What non-Christian do you know would call Jesus as their lord or perform any acts "In His name?"

What non-Christians do you know perform miracles or prophecies in the name of Christ?

Do you not end your prayer in Jesus' name?

FreeGrace2 said:

This needs to be addressed. Disinheriting by parents doesn't change the RELATIONSHIP. The child REMAINS the birth child. The DNA does NOT change. What changes is the FELLOWSHIP between parent and child.

That's what the insecurity crowd seems not to get. .

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Unfortunately you don't even get your own analogy. The child would always have the nature of the parent due to sharing the DNA so he would not be able to shake those inherited characteristics. As john teaches a believer inherits the seed so he cannot sin AND because he is born of God he must overcome.

Butch5 said:

So, the passages don't prove OSAS, you've simply inferred OSAS from your understanding of those passages.

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So the passage proves OSAS because the person could never continue in sin which would break the relationship but as usual the point goes over your head.

FreeGrace2 said:

This needs to be addressed. Disinheriting by parents doesn't change the RELATIONSHIP. The child REMAINS the birth child. The DNA does NOT change. What changes is the FELLOWSHIP between parent and child.

That's what the insecurity crowd seems not to get. Once a child of God, that cannot change, any more than the physical relationship between human parent and child.

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Believers are adopted children by the way we are not the only begotten of the Father as Jesus.

And even if a man is a son he can be dead when left the house as the prodigal son was and alive again when he comes back. If he is dead, then he is not in salavtion.